DUST Search - Why Are HMG's Are More Accurate Than AR's?

High Commander' Rhnz wrote:

Tectonious Falcon wrote:

DJINN leukoplast wrote:

Been saying that HMG has far too great a range for a while now, glad somebody took it to test.

Bottom line is, the HMG's range needs to be reduced drastically, at least by 30-40% or so. They stand up way too easily against an AR at a decent range, and that shouldn't be the case. Yes if I am close, they should be able to mow me down, but anything past a short/medium range should be mostly futile for an HMG. Also the fact the thing gets more accurate the longer is spins is ridiculous.

The effective range of the AR and HMG are far too close (not based on numbers, but experience). And with the heavy sporting a massive health advantage, the AR player usually stands no chance unless the heavy is just sitting in the wide open, letting me slowly dwindle their health down at range while miraculously not being shot by an enemy player. Roll

I really hope CCP doesn't nerf the heavy suit, because the HMG is the real problem.

The HMG is very inaccurate when you first start firing it, so you miss a lot of your bullets, and then once it finally becomes accurate it starts getting heaps of recoil and overheats.

Why is everyone against it getting more accurate the longer it's fired? Assault rifles are accurate he moment you fire them AND have no overheat, yet I don't see anyone complaining about that. (as an example.)

It promotes pray and spray tactics, which last time I checked did not take real skill.

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Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 248	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:00:00 - [1] - Quote Did a test today with some corp mates in the back of the base just to see how HMG's vary from AR's. The results are both surprising and somewhat disturbing. A basic HMG has a max range of 63 meters with level 1 heavy sharpshooter An assaul HMG has a max range of 85 meters with level 1 heavy sharpshooter A basic AR has a max range of 88 meters with level 1 light sharpshooter In case you are wondering how I got the range I was shooting at, you can get these stats by checking the information that pops up at the center bottom of your screen when you aim your crosshair at people (including teammates.) So, basically, a assault HMG has the same range as an AR. 3 meters difference. This is insanely imbalanced. An HMG is supposed to be great at close range, fair at mid range, useless at long range. But with this kind of range, it's just as deadly at mid range as it is at close range, and more deadly than an AR at any range that both weapons can reach due to the 2000 RPM that the HMG puts out. Anyone within 50 meters of an HMG , or 75 meters of an assault HMG can get mowed down by it just as easily as if they were point blank. But you may say "but the HMG is far less accurate than the AR! It's bullet spread more than makes up for this!" Not true. The most accurate AR in the marketplace, the Allotek Burst AR, has an accuracy rating of 59.0. All HMG's except for the burst variants have an accuracy rating of 61.5, which makes them MORE ACCURATE THAN AN ASSAULT RIFLE. Yes, for about a quarter of a second, while the HMG is spinning up, the HMG spreads quite wildly. But after about a second of constant firing it has become more accurate than any assault rifle you can buy. And if you are using the assault variant, you can virtually reach just as far as any AR with the same skill level in sharpshooter (as I said, the AR is 3 meters further). So, in summary, the HMG has virtually the same range as the AR, fires off 1250 more RPM, and has a greater accuracy rating than the top AR's on the market. This is too much for a weapon with such high damage output. So now, let's hear the heavies start trying to convince me that the HMG isn't imbalanced. I welcome any legitimate responses.
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:04:00 - [2] - Quote You never used a HMG before have you? When they are first fired they have a large cone of fire and as they fire it gets a bit more accurate but never as accurate as an AR I cannot head shot someone from the end of the HMGs max range... Also how many times have you been killed by an assault HMG nobody in there right mind would you use them because they are too weak and an AR can out gun them at that range.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 248	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:06:00 - [3] - Quote Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote: You never used a HMG before have you? When they are first fired they have a large cone of fire and as they fire it gets a bit more accurate but never as accurate as an AR I cannot head shot someone from the end of the HMGs max range... Actually, yes. I have. I have specced specifically into them in several builds. I also know that they have a cone when they start to fire. YOU obviously didn't read the whole post, or you would have seen me address that. After a second of firing they are more accurate than an AR. The cone is gone after a full second of continued uninterrupted firing. The circle crosshair makes it seem like the cone is still there, but if you watch the stream of bullets, you will see it is not.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:07:00 - [4] - Quote Lolz, the assault HMG does less damage than the regular HMG. If you truly believe that the assault HMG is better than the AR at 75 meters I don't know what to say. Besides that, I think the HMG does very little damage outside it's optimal range.
arimal lavaren L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 186	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:09:00 - [5] - Quote I think the point is you don't need to head shot any one when your spitting out that many bullets and can hit from a nearly equal range.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 248	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:10:00 - [6] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Lolz, the assault HMG does less damage than the regular HMG. If you truly believe that the assault HMG is better than the AR at 75 meters I don't know what to say. Besides that, I think the HMG does very little damage outside it's optimal range. 28000 DPM with the assault HMG 23250 DPM with the basic AR It's math, genius. Just because the assault HMG does less than the basic HMG doesn't mean the assault HMG does less than the AR. EDIT: And the optimal range is about 75 meters with the assault HMG, as I posted above. AR is at 78. EDIT 2: and just for the record, basic HMG is 32000 DPM
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 63	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:11:00 - [7] - Quote all i can say is lolololol u shootout with ar user at range with HMG ur a dead duck.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:12:00 - [8] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Lolz, the assault HMG does less damage than the regular HMG. If you truly believe that the assault HMG is better than the AR at 75 meters I don't know what to say. Besides that, I think the HMG does very little damage outside it's optimal range. 28000 DPM with the assault HMG 23250 DPM with the basic AR It's math, genius. Just because the assault HMG does less than the basic HMG doesn't mean the assault HMG does less than the AR. I said at 75 meters genius. The assault HMG does less damage at 75 meters than the AR. The regular HMG does less damage at 50 meters than the AR. At least that's my experience using the regular HMG.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:13:00 - [9] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: EDIT: And the optimal range is about 75 meters with the assault HMG, as I posted above. AR is at 78. Lol what? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40886&find=unread Optimal range for the assault HMG is 1-49 meters.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 248	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:16:00 - [10] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: EDIT: And the optimal range is about 75 meters with the assault HMG, as I posted above. AR is at 78. Lol what? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40886&find=unread Optimal range for the assault HMG is 1-49 meters. #1Posted: 2012.10.12 19:54 \| Report \| Edited by: Musta Tornius You didn't notice this is from 2 builds ago did you? Those numbers are no longer valid.

SickJ French unchained corporation 48	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:19:00 - [11] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: So, in summary, the HMG has virtually the same range as the AR, fires off 1250 more RPM, and has a greater accuracy rating than the top AR's on the market. This is too much for a weapon with such high damage output. So now, let's hear the heavies start trying to convince me that the HMG isn't imbalanced. ... The AR is meant to be a 'jack-of-all-trades' weapon. It's easy on CPU/PG, reloads quickly, it's good for run&gun, and it's effective at short and medium range. The HMG throws all that away to simply do as much damage as possible. It will take out anything it's pointed at, but you need a heavy to use it, so run&gun goes out the window.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:19:00 - [12] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: EDIT: And the optimal range is about 75 meters with the assault HMG, as I posted above. AR is at 78. Lol what? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40886&find=unread Optimal range for the assault HMG is 1-49 meters. #1Posted: 2012.10.12 19:54 \| Report \| Edited by: Musta Tornius You didn't notice this is from 2 builds ago did you? Those numbers are no longer valid. Yes it is, he updated it with Chromosome. With pistols at least, don't even think they changed the range on any of the HMG since that thread. If you really believe the optimal range on the assault HMG is 75 meters, and the max range is beyond that, you're mistaken. Edit: I just got confirmation from the thread author that the numbers are fully updated as far as he knows.
High Commander' Rhnz Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:38:00 - [13] - Quote Thank you OP HMG is an issue, and I hope it will soon be addressed. I don't want steal you thunder, but I think the instant Hit mechanic for HMG's is also a huge problem
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1899	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:39:00 - [14] - Quote Have you ever actually tried to use the Assault HMG outside of testing, in actual combat? I hate that thing. The damage is laughable, and by the time you do enough damage you tend to be getting focused down and dieing. The range is NOT worth it, at all, as far as I'm concerned. HMGs could use a tiny pull back on the range, as well as a tiny increase to heat build up (but not the burst, that thing heats up way too fast as is)
Disturbingly Bored Universal Allies Inc. 92	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:44:00 - [15] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Lolz, the assault HMG does less damage than the regular HMG. If you truly believe that the assault HMG is better than the AR at 75 meters I don't know what to say. Besides that, I think the HMG does very little damage outside it's optimal range. 28000 DPM with the assault HMG 23250 DPM with the basic AR It's math, genius. Just because the assault HMG does less than the basic HMG doesn't mean the assault HMG does less than the AR. EDIT: And the optimal range is about 75 meters with the assault HMG, as I posted above. AR is at 78. EDIT 2: and just for the record, basic HMG is 32000 DPM I'm willing to listen, but I don't think the argument is solid. Try killing someone at 75m with each gun. See how long it takes. If I try to fight an Assault with decent aim at that range, I'm usually forced to disengage. The times I've tried to close ground, I've died. Granted, that's anecdotal. But if I could regularly own Assaults at their preferred range, I'd have been doing it the whole time.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:45:00 - [16] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Have you ever actually tried to use the Assault HMG outside of testing, in actual combat? I hate that thing. The damage is laughable, and by the time you do enough damage you tend to be getting focused down and dieing. The range is NOT worth it, at all, as far as I'm concerned. HMGs could use a tiny pull back on the range, as well as a tiny increase to heat build up (but not the burst, that thing heats up way too fast as is) That's my experience with the assault as well. The slightly more range is not worth it because you're screwed in short range with it. About the range decrease. I think the range is fine at the moment. Once we get bigger maps it won't be such a big issue as it is now with the tiny maps. I somewhat agree with you about the heat build up. Currently it overheats just before you've used 60% of the clip. I wouldn't mind that being moved to around 50%.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1899	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:47:00 - [17] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: 28000 DPM with the assault HMG 23250 DPM with the basic AR It's math, genius. Just because the assault HMG does less than the basic HMG doesn't mean the assault HMG does less than the AR. EDIT: And the optimal range is about 75 meters with the assault HMG, as I posted above. AR is at 78. EDIT 2: and just for the record, basic HMG is 32000 DPM You've definitely never had real practice with the HMG. I'm not saying HMGs aren't too good, because they probably are, but your damage goes WAY down at range. If you're an AR user at your max range, and you lose to an HMG user at his max range, I'm sorry to say, but you just suck very very badly, and might want to consider a different game, or at least a different fit.
Musta Tornius BetaMax. 265	Posted - 2013.01.18 19:07:00 - [18] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: EDIT: And the optimal range is about 75 meters with the assault HMG, as I posted above. AR is at 78. Lol what? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40886&find=unread Optimal range for the assault HMG is 1-49 meters. #1Posted: 2012.10.12 19:54 \| Report \| Edited by: Musta Tornius You didn't notice this is from 2 builds ago did you? Those numbers are no longer valid. Hello, range thread author here. Done a double check on the HMG ranges, regular and assault are still the same values although there was some problems with the max range of assault as quick testing gave it to be 3m more than before but I'll recheck in a day or two. I've kept the thread up to date constantly, I just edit it everytime and it shows old dates.
Tectonious Falcon The Southern Legion 395	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:56:00 - [19] - Quote I love it when people come in and say "I'm so smart look at me doing Maths!" but they never factor in everything. Do you SERIOUSLY think every single bullet from an assault HMG is going to hit st 75 meters? When I fire my HMG from long range, it starts off very inaccurate and only a couple of bullets hit. Now my target knows I'm shooting for them and starts running. Then my HMG gets more accurate, but guess what? It gets more recoil as well! Try hitting someone that is trying to dodge you at 75 meters with a gun that has lots of recoil the moment it becomes accurate.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2013.01.18 23:49:00 - [20] - Quote Been saying that HMG has far too great a range for a while now, glad somebody took it to test. Bottom line is, the HMG's range needs to be reduced drastically, at least by 30-40% or so. They stand up way too easily against an AR at a decent range, and that shouldn't be the case. Yes if I am close, they should be able to mow me down, but anything past a short/medium range should be mostly futile for an HMG. Also the fact the thing gets more accurate the longer is spins is ridiculous. The effective range of the AR and HMG are far too close (not based on numbers, but experience). And with the heavy sporting a massive health advantage, the AR player usually stands no chance unless the heavy is just sitting in the wide open, letting me slowly dwindle their health down at range while miraculously not being shot by an enemy player. I really hope CCP doesn't nerf the heavy suit, because the HMG is the real problem.

Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.19 00:14:00 - [21] - Quote And yet we see this in feedback https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=51783&find=unread
Tectonious Falcon The Southern Legion 395	Posted - 2013.01.19 00:16:00 - [22] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Been saying that HMG has far too great a range for a while now, glad somebody took it to test. Bottom line is, the HMG's range needs to be reduced drastically, at least by 30-40% or so. They stand up way too easily against an AR at a decent range, and that shouldn't be the case. Yes if I am close, they should be able to mow me down, but anything past a short/medium range should be mostly futile for an HMG. Also the fact the thing gets more accurate the longer is spins is ridiculous. The effective range of the AR and HMG are far too close (not based on numbers, but experience). And with the heavy sporting a massive health advantage, the AR player usually stands no chance unless the heavy is just sitting in the wide open, letting me slowly dwindle their health down at range while miraculously not being shot by an enemy player. I really hope CCP doesn't nerf the heavy suit, because the HMG is the real problem. The HMG is very inaccurate when you first start firing it, so you miss a lot of your bullets, and then once it finally becomes accurate it starts getting heaps of recoil and overheats. Why is everyone against it getting more accurate the longer it's fired? Assault rifles are accurate he moment you fire them AND have no overheat, yet I don't see anyone complaining about that. (as an example.)
HowDidThatTaste Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2242	Posted - 2013.01.19 00:21:00 - [23] - Quote Hahahahahahaha. The standard HMG with no points in sharpshooter can barely get hit markers from the top of the table top.... to the bottom so really it is to accurate at range..hahahahahahahahahahajaha At sharpshooter level two I can kill with a lot of luck, or the player is already hurt. from the closest corner at the base of the table top shooting to the very edge of the d garage. Anything further than that and there is no hope. Anyone with decent at skills kills me in seconds flat if I try to make that shot for any length of time. Remember at those ranges 80% of our bullets miss! If you are getting out distant shot by hmg run duck doge more don't stand there. And aim with you gun cause I don't ever try to shoot people at any kind of range for more than a second cause it is a loosing battle every time.
High Commander' Rhnz Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2013.01.19 00:26:00 - [24] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Hahahahahahaha. The standard HMG with no points in sharpshooter can barely get hit markers from the top of the table top.... to the bottom so really it is to accurate at range..hahahahahahahahahahajaha At sharpshooter level two I can kill with a lot of luck, or the player is already hurt. from the closest corner at the base of the table top shooting to the very edge of the d garage. Anything further than that and there is no hope. Anyone with decent at skills kills me in seconds flat if I try to make that shot for any length of time. Remember at those ranges 80% of our bullets miss! If you are getting out distant shot by hmg run duck doge more don't stand there. And aim with you gun cause I don't ever try to shoot people at any kind of range for more than a second cause it is a loosing battle every time. The HMG is unbelievably unbalanced. the fact that even compete with a AR at mid range is a complete joke. Its CQC weapon enough said
High Commander' Rhnz Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2013.01.19 00:30:00 - [25] - Quote Tectonious Falcon wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: Been saying that HMG has far too great a range for a while now, glad somebody took it to test. Bottom line is, the HMG's range needs to be reduced drastically, at least by 30-40% or so. They stand up way too easily against an AR at a decent range, and that shouldn't be the case. Yes if I am close, they should be able to mow me down, but anything past a short/medium range should be mostly futile for an HMG. Also the fact the thing gets more accurate the longer is spins is ridiculous. The effective range of the AR and HMG are far too close (not based on numbers, but experience). And with the heavy sporting a massive health advantage, the AR player usually stands no chance unless the heavy is just sitting in the wide open, letting me slowly dwindle their health down at range while miraculously not being shot by an enemy player. I really hope CCP doesn't nerf the heavy suit, because the HMG is the real problem. The HMG is very inaccurate when you first start firing it, so you miss a lot of your bullets, and then once it finally becomes accurate it starts getting heaps of recoil and overheats. Why is everyone against it getting more accurate the longer it's fired? Assault rifles are accurate he moment you fire them AND have no overheat, yet I don't see anyone complaining about that. (as an example.) It promotes pray and spray tactics, which last time I checked did not take real skill.
Solomon Malcolm BurgezzE.T.F 13	Posted - 2013.01.19 00:30:00 - [26] - Quote I Don't do gun math, i just shoot. If the person is dead that's all i care about.
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2013.01.19 00:31:00 - [27] - Quote I don't know if this will help anyone understand but I will put this here. Quote: The heavy weapons? These are all about raw power.
HowDidThatTaste Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2242	Posted - 2013.01.19 00:39:00 - [28] - Quote @rhnz that statement is just wrong. Heavies mid range optimal range with 2 in sharpshooter is the distance of the width of the main street in the line harvest map.' Standard hmg with No sharpshooter skills can not effectively shoot across that same street. AR guys can stand on the top of the C garage and shoot me cleanly either side of the street and I would never be able to fire back. So I'm sorry but you have never used the hmg in real world situations to know that mid range goes to AR unless he is damaged already or just bad.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 285	Posted - 2013.01.19 01:03:00 - [29] - Quote High Commander' Rhnz wrote: Tectonious Falcon wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: Been saying that HMG has far too great a range for a while now, glad somebody took it to test. Bottom line is, the HMG's range needs to be reduced drastically, at least by 30-40% or so. They stand up way too easily against an AR at a decent range, and that shouldn't be the case. Yes if I am close, they should be able to mow me down, but anything past a short/medium range should be mostly futile for an HMG. Also the fact the thing gets more accurate the longer is spins is ridiculous. The effective range of the AR and HMG are far too close (not based on numbers, but experience). And with the heavy sporting a massive health advantage, the AR player usually stands no chance unless the heavy is just sitting in the wide open, letting me slowly dwindle their health down at range while miraculously not being shot by an enemy player. I really hope CCP doesn't nerf the heavy suit, because the HMG is the real problem. The HMG is very inaccurate when you first start firing it, so you miss a lot of your bullets, and then once it finally becomes accurate it starts getting heaps of recoil and overheats. Why is everyone against it getting more accurate the longer it's fired? Assault rifles are accurate he moment you fire them AND have no overheat, yet I don't see anyone complaining about that. (as an example.) It promotes pray and spray tactics, which last time I checked did not take real skill. The skill of a heavy comes from being in the right place to use your weapon more than using the weapon itself. An assault AR can always run for cover, but get the drop on a fatty and they're done.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1899	Posted - 2013.01.19 01:06:00 - [30] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Bottom line is, the HMG's range needs to be reduced drastically, at least by 30-40% or so So you want heavies to HAVE to use an LAV to get kills with an HMG? How do you expect to waddle after your prey if you can't even reach them?



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