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Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
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Posted - 2013.01.16 18:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let me preface by stating this is not a QQ and that i am flux/MD user so this discussion and suggested "fixes" will hurt my overall playstyle.
Lets start with stats
Std: 1200 dmg, 6.0m radius, max ammo 3, Cost 1400 ISK
Adv: 1500 dmg, 6.6m radius, max ammo 3, Cost 4240 ISK
Pro: 1800 dmg, 7.2m radius, max ammo 3, Cost 12,960 ISK
Proto vk1 assualt suit 225 base shield plus 25% from shield control=281.25+4 com shield extenders=545 shield HP.
As you can see the best inf shield tank cant even withstand a std flux grenade hit.
My experience with flux grenades is they do a proportional damage based on where you are in the radius of the blast, However it does not do divided damage, as a result if i catch an entire squad within the center of the blast all shields are wiped gone.
I think CCP has this level of damage to deal with shield tanks which makes sense but i think there are a few solutions that would make fluxes a bit more balanced and a little less versatile.
First is divided damage, it would DIVIDE the damage done to targets/electronics based on the number caught within the blast.
The other perhaps more practical option is to create 2 variants, a lower damage infantry version(with perhaps a slightly larger radius) and these current versions as AV flux that would behave similarly to AV nades(which in my experience don't do so well against tank shield but are murder on armor).
This way people can't carry around a single nade type that is essentially AV level shield damage but can utterly wreck infantry with a single well placed flux nade.
While im on the subject of flux variants i would like to see an EMP variant that has more effect on hacking, radar and perhaps even HUD(to a small extent--kinda like a futuristic flashbang).
I draw these ideas on the way repair tools are varied and have different effects on infantry vs vehicles/installations.
I know with so much focus on locus nades i think flux nades are grossly underused and thus people don't recognize truly how powerful and versatile these things are.
Thank you for reading... release the trolls. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
haha, like i said it hurts me too because i am an avid flux nade user, even when i roll AR i like using flux because everyone shield tanks like its their job. But look at those numbers and there is no denying that they are out of whack with the rest of the grenades, except perhaps AV nades since we dont know the direct damage value of them yet.
Edit-- Im not asking for this nerf per se im just leaving it their for discussion, i havent even suggested it to Nova Knife yet because i dont want CCP going nuts, but i would like to get opinions from others. Its a shame that we just dont have enough people using flux given the current state of locus use, so its really underrepresented. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hey i spent a lot of SP so i could chuck flux and spam "noob" tube. Im not embarrased by it as a squishy logi i want to use the only weapon slot i have to make sure i can "clear out" enemies and rez/rep my buddies. I mean im always yeling back the eff up on comms when im firing it cause i want ppl to run and quake when im around....makes me feel manly darnit.
I do like you're scaled damage idea just not sure if it is doable from a coding aspect if a flux is thrown at a tank with enemies near it as well. Also i think having the variants make it less of an all-purpose shield stripping nade and forces players to be more concious of their flux nade selection.
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Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:
No the problem is already solved. When an infantry loses all of its shields it is totally different than when a vehicle loses most of its shield. Already the grenade is a lot less 'effective' in the HP damage its done.
Also, an additional downside of the flux grenades is that if you lose your shields and then you die to weapon fire, you can still be injected on the field. With regular grenades thats not an option.
Also, it says they hurt electronics, but can anyone confirm that this actually happens to anything like sensors, shiled modules, or vehicle mods?
Atm no they do not, what they effect is electronic equipment on the floor such as hives and uplinks. They don't interfere with RE's proximities or any modules that i am aware of. The only way to test it however is on tanks to see if it will interrupt shield/armor regen or on infantry with shield regenerator modules or armor rep modules... but its difficult to quantify that data on our end without a "playground/practice arena" to test these things. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Dude, its rock paper scissors. As a logi, I use my flux nades and MD to keep you fast shield scouts and assaults away from me and my HMG heavy. I don't need more of you shooting at us. Go armor tank if you have a problem with flux grenades. Everything has its hard counter. If the team you are playing seems to be anti shield, make sure you have a tank setup ready to respawn with.
This is not your mothers FPS. HTFU.
Wow guess you missed the entire premise of my post. SMH.
Edit- Your so called hard counter "armor tank" is a soft counter at best, given the inherent weakness of armor against well everything and also the movement penalty with plates which makes you move like sludge is hardly a solution against the the damage potential of STD flux nades. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 19:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Free Beers wrote:
HTFU? put up a corp contract for 20 mill for imperfects to take then. Wait.. whats that sound yeah it's you STFU. Corp Battle or your just a *****
Want to disagree and provide supporting reasons? Go ahead and we can argue back and forth about it. Saying **** like this proves that you know that "Your weapon/nade combo" Is broken and all you can do is talk **** instead of defend it.
So many players in dust only do one thing or us one weapon and their world revolves around it. Those are the opinions in dust that mean ****
First off beers, its an effective combo and one that makes sense to use, like flux and swarm launcher on a shield tank, or AR/Smg or scout suit and shotty.
I mean if everything became just an AR vs AR battle(not suggesting thats what you want just using as an example) the game would be utterly boring. Yes i want good gunfights but i also want weapon versatility and combinations of weapons/nades/vehicles and everything else. I just want to make sure its done in a balanced manner.
Also using a flux nade follwed by any gun other than LR is a good effective combo and just as good a reason to use them.
But the reason why i made this thread is specifically in how effective that combo is because of the INSANE level of shield damage flux nades currently do.
If that was the point of your previous thread i apoligize for the misinterpretation. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Oh i see it now, yea my response was also meant in a normal manner too. But i try to also play devils advocate and try to help both sides on the argument. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tbone322 wrote:According to your numbers though, a standard grenade will knock out most if not all of the shields of the majority of the community. In fact a standard grenade will knock out all the shields AND do armor damage to most scouts and logis. The Flux, while devastating in shield damage, doesn't really do anything that a standard grenade can't do.
Though you are correct about this, that has more to do with the locus nades and their own inherent issues. Yes you are correct that locus nade do indeed have a double function and can do a lot in terms of damage to most players. Personally it may even warrant a discussion on making locus damage to armor only with 0% YES 0% effect on shielding thus further reducing panic nading, this would also create a greater necessity for teamwork as a combination of both flux and locus will be needed to soften enemies in heavily defended areas.
With regards to flux however i dont have an issue with them personally but i do feel that they do way too much damage to shielding at their current levels while still giving the versatility needed to attack shield HAV.
Like I said IDK, perhaps they are indeed fine as is but i really think they should create the variant.
It would be really nice if we could get the people on this forum to agree to use nothing but flux this weekend to see how effective they are and if they need a "tweak" because they are underrepresented ingame and we need more data. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
@ beers.
I think you might be wrong about the all or none effect of flux nades, ive had instances of flux nades only doing partial shield damage when at the periphery but perhaps at the very very edge of it(like having a foot just inside breaking the border of the field), given their high level of damage its possible it goes unnoticed since even a poorly tossed nade with the radius is enough to strip away the entire shielding. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 22:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yea what he said.... hold me back bro hold me back... said the logibro in the back of the squad trying his best tough guy routine. |
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Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 23:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Im the OP, not an Imperfect, just find myself agreeing with a lot of them on their points. Next didn't say flux grenades were OP. Nor did i specifically ask for them to be nerfed. I simply postulated the idea that it should perhaps be considered and left the thread open to discussion. It seems everyone wants to bring their bias and not even look at the original post in its entirety. Sorry if you have the attention span of a gnat but when i write a thread i makes sure i use those pesky things called Data and Facts.
Fact Flux nades in their current iteration can wipe the shields off of every infantry no matter how tanked they are. I know because i use them in conjunction with MD. Im the one using them not them being used on me so a nerf HURTS ME. I wrote it not aware that their are racial variants in this game (or there will be) that will reduce the effect of flux grenades. I made the post with the data i had available to me at the current level of the build.
I didnt specifically ask for a nerf but rather variation on the flux nades that can be tailored either to infantry or to tanks. I thought it was worthy of discussion. You just saw flux nades in general discussion and assumed it was a QQ thats you're issue. If my post was vague or unclear then i take responsibility and that is my fault.
Yes flux nades are only limited to shields and yes they do a lot of damage so they can wipe entire squad shields which is fine by me i love it when i do and then wipe everyone out with MD fire. But the question is even if it limited to shields should it do that much damage, i think they need the high level for tanks but hence why not make a tank version and an infantry version thus creating more need for tactical awareness and loadout awareness instead a one size fits all shield destroyer. |
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