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xprotoman23
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1452
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Posted - 2013.01.14 05:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Most people play the same game mode all day whether that be ambush or skirmish. Among the issues with the daily SP cap one of the more obvious, is the feeling of a lack of progression. What if CCP was to introduce separate SP caps for both Ambush and Skirmish? |
Noraa Anderson
Nox Aeterna Security
184
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
What if the Ambush sp cap was easy to hit and more players were forced over to play Skirmish? i.e. the real part of Dust 514 gameplay That would also lessen the amount of pubstomping/sp farming in Ambush. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1591
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hmm. I'm listening. But what about numbers? How would you set it up so that SP gains still don't go faster than the SP gains for the Eve player? |
xprotoman23
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1452
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Noraa Anderson wrote:What if the Ambush sp cap was easy to hit and more players were forced over to play Skirmish? i.e. the real part of Dust 514 gameplay That would also lessen the amount of pubstomping/sp farming in Ambush.
Skirmish isn't the "real part" of DUST gameplay. It's a poormans version of Domination from COD or Conquest from battlefield. It falls under the basic strategy of hold a majority of the points and give your enemy one position to be farmed.
Ambush and Skirmish should have different SP caps so that people play more than just one game mode, and also so they can feel a greater sense of daily progression in terms of SP than they do now. |
lowratehitman
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
282
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
When I reach my SP cap on skirmish I go to ambush to farm ISK, not that I need the ISK right now. |
Mr Zitro
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
417
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sure why not but first let me qsync with more people first |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
131
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Hmm. I'm listening. But what about numbers? How would you set it up so that SP gains still don't go faster than the SP gains for the Eve player?
Does it really matter if SP gain is faster in Dust? I don't understand the logic behind making them similar at all.
First of all, both ways the games currently interact (EVE orbital strikes and FW), aren't affected in any way by how much SP we have. Whether the average merc is getting the same amount of SP per week as an EVE player, or three times as much, it doesn't affect the EVE players.
Secondly, it's unlikely there will ever be the sort of meaningful interaction between the two that deems it necessary to curb any sort of "head start" Dust players could get now. I use that term ironically since EVE has been around for so long already (see final point).
Thirdly, this isn't a game where you can go around mining, slaughtering pirates, exploring wormholes, or trading during your off-time that can make up for a lack of SP intake. Without that influx, people will quickly lose interest and feel like logging on is a requirement instead of something they look forward to--and even when they do play past that point, the games will seem slow and grindy.
Fourthly, Dust players earn their SP. If you do poorly, you don't get much SP. If you don't play, you don't get SP (other than passive SP, which is pretty low and doesn't even apply to all your characters at once). Isn't EVE all passive? Why do people who do nothing get as much as, if not more than, those who work for it?
Lastly, and most importantly, EVE has been around for 10 years. The idea that SP gains in Dust need to be similar to those earned in EVE is absurd. Any attempt at balance between the two in terms of actual SP (which, as above, makes no sense even inherently) a player has is laughable given that some people in EVE already have tens of millions (I don't know much about EVE, but I don't think that number is far off). |
Heinz Doofenshertz
BetaMax.
360
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Actually you missed the fact that Corp battles do currently affect FW control. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
131
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Heinz Doofenshertz wrote:Actually you missed the fact that Corp battles do currently affect FW control.
Corp battles are all Dust-side though, the SP of the mercs itself doesn't, in any way, affect the EVE players. But yes, I'll amend the first post.
Also is FW out yet? Why haven't I seen anything about that? Where are/would be the contracts? |
Kira Lannister
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
711
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
xprotoman23 wrote:Noraa Anderson wrote:What if the Ambush sp cap was easy to hit and more players were forced over to play Skirmish? i.e. the real part of Dust 514 gameplay That would also lessen the amount of pubstomping/sp farming in Ambush. Skirmish isn't the "real part" of DUST gameplay. It's a poormans version of Domination from COD or Conquest from battlefield. It falls under the basic strategy of hold a majority of the points and give your enemy one position to be farmed. Ambush and Skirmish should have different SP caps so that people play more than just one game mode, and also so they can feel a greater sense of daily progression in terms of SP than they do now.
So team death match aka ambush is what you think the game is about? Just pure mindless killing.
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Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pretty bad idea. This would make people have to play both Ambush and Skirmish then in order to hit their cap. People shouldn't feel compelled to play certain game modes. People should be playing whatever they find the most fun to play.
Further, what would be the point? So instead of 24k SP cap, you get 12k SP cap for Ambush and 12k SP for Skirmish? What problem have you solved exactly?
There are legitimate issues with the SP cap. The lack of progression is a decent issue. This idea solves none of the issues with the cap, and only introduces new ones. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2013.01.14 06:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Does it really matter if SP gain is faster in Dust? I don't understand the logic behind making them similar at all.
They want people to be spending many years developing their characters. They don't want people to max out their skills. The whole point behind the cap is that they don't want the people to grind through the progression incredibly quickly and therefore eliminate the ongoing, ever-lasting progression that EVE also has. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
131
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Posted - 2013.01.14 07:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:Does it really matter if SP gain is faster in Dust? I don't understand the logic behind making them similar at all. They want people to be spending many years developing their characters. They don't want people to max out their skills. The whole point behind the cap is that they don't want the people to grind through the progression incredibly quickly and therefore eliminate the ongoing, ever-lasting progression that EVE also has.
It's unlikely anyone will play long enough to even get close to maxing everything, let alone the number of people CCP wants playing for this game to succeed.
And even if that is the reasoning, there are much better ways to go about making sure people don't "max" their character. The one that jumps readily to mind is adding more skills.
They need to find a balance between letting people feel like there's always more they want, and letting people feel like they can actually achieve it. Let's do some math. We'll assume no Passive or Active SP booster. We'll also round slightly just to make things a little easier, plus it won't matter in the end anyway.
50,000 SP per day if you hit the Active cap. (Active SP cap per day: 28,000. Passive SP cap per day: 22,000.)
350,000 SP a week if you hit the Active cap every day.
We'll take a pretty common goal for the purposes of the example: Proto Assault suit. The total cost for this is what, 2.5mil SP? I think that's about right.
2,500,000 divided by 350,000 = A little over 7. You'd have to hit the cap every day for nearly two months and put every skill point you had (other than the initial 250-300k you get when making a new character) into it--and then you'd have nothing to use in the suit itself. This isn't the same game market as when EVE launched ten years ago, it's more about instant gratification now. I'm not saying cater to the masses, I'm saying cater to success. People are going to feel like they're going nowhere.
The current cap is horribly low. |
RolyatDerTeufel
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
1648
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Posted - 2013.01.14 08:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:Does it really matter if SP gain is faster in Dust? I don't understand the logic behind making them similar at all. They want people to be spending many years developing their characters. They don't want people to max out their skills. The whole point behind the cap is that they don't want the people to grind through the progression incredibly quickly and therefore eliminate the ongoing, ever-lasting progression that EVE also has. It's unlikely anyone will play long enough to even get close to maxing everything, let alone the number of people CCP wants playing for this game to succeed. And even if that is the reasoning, there are much better ways to go about making sure people don't "max" their character. The one that jumps readily to mind is adding more skills. They need to find a balance between letting people feel like there's always more they want, and letting people feel like they can actually achieve it. Let's do some math. We'll assume no Passive or Active SP booster. We'll also round slightly just to make things a little easier, plus it won't matter in the end anyway. 50,000 SP per day if you hit the Active cap. (Active SP cap per day: 28,000. Passive SP cap per day: 22,000.) 350,000 SP a week if you hit the Active cap every day. We'll take a pretty common goal for the purposes of the example: Proto Assault suit. The total cost for this is what, 2.5mil SP? I think that's about right. 2,500,000 divided by 350,000 = A little over 7. You'd have to hit the cap every day for nearly two months and put every skill point you had (other than the initial 250-300k you get when making a new character) into it--and then you'd have nothing to use in the suit itself. This isn't the same game market as when EVE launched ten years ago, it's more about instant gratification now. I'm not saying cater to the masses, I'm saying cater to success. People are going to feel like they're going no where. The current cap is horribly low.
2 months (from already having LVL 4) for the best assault suit if you're only going for that and not the core skills that any suit needs to be used properly from beginning the game sounds reasonable enough to me for a skillset they said upon release will take 7 years to max out EVERYTHING. I wonder how long our current gains make all the current skills being maxed out will take..
Also, SP and even the best gear isn't the end game in dust Cause like EVE there is no end game
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
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Posted - 2013.01.14 09:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
xprotoman23 wrote:Most people play the same game mode all day whether that be ambush or skirmish. Among the issues with the daily SP cap one of the more obvious, is the feeling of a lack of progression. What if CCP was to introduce separate SP caps for both Ambush and Skirmish?
Hum... me dont like that idea. I tend to hate ambush. I still play a few games now and then but i shouldnt have to be forced into a specific game mode every day. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2013.01.14 10:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:It's unlikely anyone will play long enough to even get close to maxing everything, let alone the number of people CCP wants playing for this game to succeed.
Their explicitly stated intent is for years of progression. Maybe you could lend them your crystal ball some day so that they can see the future as well as you can, and they can change their plans accordingly.
As for adding more skills, that implies adding more content. That takes a significant amount of time to do well, and feeling compelled to add content for the sake of adding more skills is a pretty bad thing to want hanging over their head. They will undoubtedly be adding skills to correspond to new vehicles etc, but you can't expect that to happen so frequently in an uncapped progression system that it'd keep people occupied in any real sense.
That said, I don't find the current setup to be ideal and I hope they change it. I don't think the cap is too low necessarily, but making 8k SP a match to abruptly making 50 SP regardless of how well I do is unsatisfying to say the least. I imagine we haven't seen the last of changes to Dust's SP system. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
102
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Posted - 2013.01.14 11:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Doubt it
Why should 1 mode get more SP than another? plus would we be able to farm both modes and acquire all SP or would it be pick which mode doles out the most SP because everyone would just play that mode even if its shite |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
131
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Posted - 2013.01.14 11:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:It's unlikely anyone will play long enough to even get close to maxing everything, let alone the number of people CCP wants playing for this game to succeed. Their explicitly stated intent is for years of progression. Maybe you could lend them your crystal ball some day so that they can see the future as well as you can, and they can change their plans accordingly.
As if you need to see into the future to understand people want to be rewarded for their work in a game that offers so much progression potential, yet need to play every day for months to just start making a top-level character in even very specific roles .
And it's not just that. It's that even if you want to play more and progress faster, you can't. Dust is frequently classified as having MMORPG elements. Imagine another MMORPG that limits your levels per day. Now imagine you finally do spend those 2 months hitting "max level" (for lack of a better analogy). Then you find out you have to level your weapon skills, items, etc so you can actually use them and that's going to take another X months. How well do you think such a game would do?
Let's take off our fanboy caps and put on our thinking ones, then maybe we can realize, once and for all, this isn't EVE and shouldn't be approached as if it is.
They made the decision for Dust to be free-to-play to attract as wide an audience as possible. Moves like this absurdly low progression speed is just going to turn away the vast majority of people who were interested in this game to begin with.
Quote:As for adding more skills, that implies adding more content. That takes a significant amount of time to do well, and feeling compelled to add content for the sake of adding more skills is a pretty bad thing to want hanging over their head. They will undoubtedly be adding skills to correspond to new vehicles etc, but you can't expect that to happen so frequently in an uncapped progression system that it'd keep people occupied in any real sense.
I'm not asking for 1mil SP a day here. Clearly there's a sweet spot somewhere between frustratingly slow (which we have now), and unreasonably fast. If they knocked the "7 years" everyone likes to throw around down to half that, then they have 3 and a half years to come up with more skills to extend it further and, at the same time, we double the progression speed. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
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Posted - 2013.01.14 11:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Why force people to do something that they won't/don't enjoy in order to hit their daily cap...? |
KalOfTheRathi
CowTek
168
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Posted - 2013.01.14 12:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Absolutely not.
Some people love Ambush and others hate it. Now you would force everybody to play everything even though this game was supposed to let you RPG you way into playing how you wanted to play.
Considering the SP cap you would get what? 45 minutes to an hour if you are in a good squad then you would have to play the Other game. Yuck.
Total Kitten Excrement. |
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