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(Request) Elimination of Starter Sniper kits for non Snipers

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BattleCry1791 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 116	Posted - 2013.01.06 05:31:00 - [1] - Quote Request: Elimination of Starter Sniper kits for non Snipers Reason: Because it's making the game bad. And you should feel bad. Supporting theory: Newbs with access to a sniper rifle tend to lead to redlining. They get their heads kicked in in the first five mins, try to respawn and realize there are no objectives open. Next thing they do is grab a sniper rifle and go hide in the mountains. And they do it in large numbers every game. The sniper class is one of the most abused classes in every FPS game ever made. "Man, I'm way negative, better pull out this stock sniper rifle I have no attachments/mods for and see if I can't even it up." Meanwhile, his teammates are getting crushed due to lack of support and the opposing team ain't scoring anything either because there's less opposition. The biggest problem is that it makes the game LESS FUN. It's less of a battle. If you remove the sniper starter gear from guys that are Sentinels and Enforcers, I think this will go a long ways towards cutting down on newb snipers. Disclaimer: Snipers can be useful. I had the opportunity to play with three guys all Friday night and that's all they did for the most part. They were pretty good at it and more importantly, they were actually able to set objectives for me (frago for you MAG players) and we all scored more points. Also, they realized their FIRST duty was to counter snipe. On no game before have I seen where snipers are as useful than DUST. So I'm not saying eliminate the sniper class, just quit handing them out like candy to every Tom, ****, and Harriet that logs into the game.
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 140	Posted - 2013.01.06 05:43:00 - [2] - Quote actually I was thinking the other day that the starter kits should be limited to just the frontline and arguably the triage. by having these two most used suites you are giving something good to both start out with and fall back on while also making players specialize into other classes if that is what they so desire starting out with the standard suites and then deciding to specialize in something else. also handing snipers and swarms (much more advanced when compared to the ars) to any random immortal for free doesn't seem like something 'the armorer' would do if he was looking for a profit as they would not be 'main stream' weapons and therefore more expensive from a business point of view .
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.01.06 05:55:00 - [3] - Quote More limits in a sandbox game = totally missing the point of a sandbox game More seriously; your theory is flawed, if a new player is starts a match, gets crushed, has his team redlined and then pulls out a starter sniper fit (as per your post) it's not the sniper fit making the game less fun, it's the redline. And forcing someone to run a starter assault rather than a starter sniper (after they've already gotten crushed, gone neg, and had their team redlined) isn't going to make it a more competitive match. The real result of this will be more people leaving the match or spawning in the MCC and never deploying (both of which already happen in abundance and we need less of, not more). Now granted just going sniping because things have gone poorly isn't a good tactic, but the game shouldn't be built around the concept of mechanically preventing poor tactics, that's directly converse to a player driven sandbox experience. The real problem is that teams getting "redlined" is too common/easy and the solution isn't going to be found in tweaking gear or fits, it's a macro problem which needs a macro solution (such as terrain resculpting, redline touch ups, and enhanced matchmaking).
BattleCry1791 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 116	Posted - 2013.01.06 07:02:00 - [4] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: More limits in a sandbox game = totally missing the point of a sandbox game More seriously; your theory is flawed, if a new player is starts a match, gets crushed, has his team redlined and then pulls out a starter sniper fit (as per your post) it's not the sniper fit making the game less fun, it's the redline. And forcing someone to run a starter assault rather than a starter sniper (after they've already gotten crushed, gone neg, and had their team redlined) isn't going to make it a more competitive match. The real result of this will be more people leaving the match or spawning in the MCC and never deploying (both of which already happen in abundance and we need less of, not more). Now granted just going sniping because things have gone poorly isn't a good tactic, but the game shouldn't be built around the concept of mechanically preventing poor tactics, that's directly converse to a player driven sandbox experience. The real problem is that teams getting "redlined" is too common/easy and the solution isn't going to be found in tweaking gear or fits, it's a macro problem which needs a macro solution (such as terrain resculpting, redline touch ups, and enhanced matchmaking). Where's the limit? They can buy all the militia sniper rifles they want, just like Enforcers have to buy militia HMGs if they want to use something they haven't skilled up for. Redline sniping is a problem in every FPS game that has ever been invented that has large maps. Happened on the PS2 and every game for the PS3. According your argument, we should just move the redline back and tweak the maps. This will not solve the problem. They'll just move further back or the opposition will then actually be able to spawn camp them. Limit the range of the baseline sniper rifles? Possibility, but then doesn't that defeat the purpose of them to begin with? There is no "macro" solution. You can take every problem solving and troubleshooting class in the world and it simply will not fix the problem since the problem is the players. Go hook up with any decent clan looking field 12+ players in MAG for SABO one night and you'll see what I mean. My request is not fueled by my personal opinion. It's based on YEARS of observation and history. If newbs/noobs get their heads kicked in, they will redline snipe if given the chance. So why give them that chance for free? If they want to sit there and do nothing, make them pay for it. Literally. If they leave then they're just hurting themselves because they loose all their ISK/SP/WP made in that round and whatever they spent (rigs) is now a complete loss. There is no other way to discourage the practice. And there's one other thing to consider here. If a player chose to be a Sentinel or an Enforcer at the outset of their character creation, then they chose to be in the fray. If they want to snipe, then they need to choose to be an Arbiter, or an Activision or whichever one it is (I can't remember right at this moment). You can throw all the buzz words around that you want, it flies in the face of what actually happens in-game.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.01.06 07:46:00 - [5] - Quote Um, No? My contention that the maps need retouched is not equivalent to saying "move the redline back". And once again you're focused on the "I don't like people doing this so let's make a rule to stop them" mentality. I've read your other thread and can understand that it's frustrating to have a team in a random pub match full of people who don't have the wherewithal to employ effective tactics but attempting to create additional constraints to pressure them into responding to a bad situation in the way you'd desire is not an effective method of game balance. You cannot address the macro level problems of map balance and highly risk averse and/or newer players not engaging by removing fits in an attempt to pressure them. Your argument doesn't hold up cohesion even within the quoted response. You state that sitting and doing nothing should have some cost but if they spawn in a starter fit in the MCC they won't be paying for anything even if that starter fit can't be a sniper. Nor will they be "paying for it" if they simply leave the match. If you want to "make them pay for it" you have to remove any starter fit option as well as the ability to leave a match. Otherwise your net effect on the "doing nothing" metric is zero and the net impact of your suggestion is actually to diminish the level of participation within the match. As to the "starting classes" you're again missing the fundamental concept of the sandbox, and attempting to impose strictures like you'd see in other more rigid styles of gaming. In those more liner methods your initial choices pre-define your possible choices and potential within the world (even if it's an MMO or other online game which could be played for years). In the Sandbox those opening choices give you a little head start towards certain goals, they're an edge (and a minor one at that) not a restriction. You can't force people to play the game your way, CCP knows that which is why EVE has been so successful. If you try to force people to play one way then all you accomplish is to drive everyone who plays (or wants to play) outside of whatever narrow view you espouse, to leave the game. Again that's not effective balance, and beyond that if you've "years" of observation telling you that "the problem is the players" and "there's no other way to discourage the practice" then in your own statement you're affirming the advocacy of trying to force people to play your way and I can only reiterate that it shows a fundamental lack of understanding regarding what sandbox gaming (the kind offered by participation in New Eden) is. Quote: An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives. If what they're doing is ineffective they'll already be penalized by failure to earn WP leading to lessor earnings of SP/ISK. Everyone is subject to the same rules with the sole arbiter being it's effective value in true sandbox style. That's not a "buzz word" it's a design philosophy, but since you brought up buzz words here are a couple that do relate to your attempt to fix the problem that you identify as being the players. Your buzz words are: Adapt or Die. And you're right, may saying it, or not saying it, doesn't change what happens in game one iota. They'd be just as true if I'd never typed them as they are now that I have.
Thranx1231 CowTek 90	Posted - 2013.01.06 07:51:00 - [6] - Quote Disagree with OP. Sniper is just a rifle. Without reducing the miserable sway, which requires SP, it takes too long to use unless you camp in some fashion. Thus, noobs at the red line. Just take a friend and walk/drive the red line. Kill them all. They have to really focus on the scope and rarely notice someone coming after them. Will a little prof and scan your dot doesn't even show until your bullets have left your weapon. I like it because it allows someone to try it without getting all spec crazy for it. One of my chars is a Sniper/Logi. In noob land when they are totally useless I snipe. Otherwise I Logi while either running backup for a Heavy HMG or capturing objectives. Counter sniping noob snipers is easy too. Before the Great AR Nerf of Chromosome I used to pop them with the Blindside or the Elite all the time. Now, the Tactical AR does fine. Most don't even notice their shield dropping off. One head shot or two body shots after that, +50. Lasers work as well. If the noobs are on your side what is the problem? At least they aren't dying. I get real tired of a four or five friends joining a match then jumping to their death, trying to do friendly fire, shooting at my hives wondering why the bullets come back and other noob fun with grenades and LAVs. At the end they may have a kill or two between them and enough deaths to account for nearly half of the clone losses.
KalOfTheRathi CowTek 168	Posted - 2013.01.06 08:06:00 - [7] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: actually I was thinking the other day that the starter kits should be limited to just the frontline and arguably the triage. by having these two most used suites you are giving something good to both start out with and fall back on while also making players specialize into other classes if that is what they so desire starting out with the standard suites and then deciding to specialize in something else. also handing snipers and swarms (much more advanced when compared to the ars) to any random immortal for free doesn't seem like something 'the armorer' would do if he was looking for a profit as they would not be 'main stream' weapons and therefore more expensive from a business point of view . The triage starter kit is junk. It should be replaced with a militia Logi suit. You learn almost nothing with only one equip slot. IMO it is a waste of time. I switched to Mil Logi immediately and at 725 ISK it was expensive until I figured some of the tactics out. Which isn't very difficult, just daunting initially. Swarms, forges and snipers are all part of the package. As expensive in SP/ISK accessing anything out of your main skill branch is any possible solution for experimenting with something new needs to be encouraged, not limited. Trying to get the ISK to get Logi Drop Suits was a major effort. Now each of my chars normal keeps 3-5M ISK on hand. More than that and I start stocking up for the long haul. That is not information that is understood when you are a noob.
BattleCry1791 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 116	Posted - 2013.01.06 11:04:00 - [8] - Quote @ Cross Atu You sure love to type but you don't bother to read do you? Let's begin with your assessment that removing the sniper starter fit from the non sniper classes is limiting. Well, applying that logic to the rest of the game, why can't I have a starter gunnlogi? Or in EvE where's my militia Titan? That'd be silly right? That's not "limiting choice", that's how the game's built. Let's apply your "logic" to guns. Why am I "limited" to the amount of bullets I can carry? I can do this all day. Video games are all about limits. The only argument is why limit this or why limit that. The answer to those questions come in two forms: 1) Balance 2) Gameplay There's really no balance issue in regards to the Starter Sniper kits. So it falls to gameplay. And I can tell you right now, letting newbs have a sniper starter kits drags down the gameplay for the reasons I've listed. I've seen it happen tens of thousands of times and that's no exaggeration. I've just been playing FPS's that freakin' long. And let's get another thing straight. It's not a sandbox. It's a battlefield. If there's no battle going on, then it's just boring, and no one is making any ISK, SP, WP, or being challenged. And it's not "my way". It can only be "my way" if the sun coming up in the east every day is "the sun's way". It's a constant, a force of nature, whatever you want to call it. It might as well be a mathematical equation. (overpowering opposition) + (underwhelming teammates) = pub stomp. Pub stomp squared leads to redline sniping I'm trying to improve the general game play. You're worrying about players that will play this for maybe a month or two and then quit for various reasons. I'm trying to prevent them from messing with the dedicated players' good time for the short duration they are here and you're just being a snarky, too smart for his own good (and don't confuse that with actually being intelligent), standard Eve mousejocky. @Thranx1231 According to what you're laying down, then there should be a starter kit for every gun and combination. You have to be consistent with this kind of thing. If you want to dabble in Eve it costs you, why make it any different here? I don't think the militia gear is so cost prohibitive that players can't spend some ISK and dabble if they want to. @KalOfTheRathi Sorry but 725 ISK isn't that expensive. Predominately I'm running around in a militia scout suit with a militia AR doing nothing but hacking and I'm earning around 150-200k a round in ISK (granted this sucks for SP, but oh well). I generally go negative, but it gives me enough ISK to invest into my HMG rigs which is what my character is spec'd for and I'll whip out if the team is making it worth my time. Again, you have to be consistent. We might as well go back to how it used to be with the militia everything available and only a one time purchase needed (oh wait, that'd mess with AUR purchases, not gonna happen). No, sorry, but the militia gear is not that expensive. It still allows players to dabble, still gives them choices without having to, as you so rightly mentioned, go spec crazy. Eve has a high learning curve. It's one of the things that makes it good right? You don't get a Starter Kit for every kind of ship in EvE, why get one for every kind of class in DUST.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1062	Posted - 2013.01.06 17:18:00 - [9] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: actually I was thinking the other day that the starter kits should be limited to just the frontline and arguably the triage. by having these two most used suites you are giving something good to both start out with and fall back on while also making players specialize into other classes if that is what they so desire starting out with the standard suites and then deciding to specialize in something else. also handing snipers and swarms (much more advanced when compared to the ars) to any random immortal for free doesn't seem like something 'the armorer' would do if he was looking for a profit as they would not be 'main stream' weapons and therefore more expensive from a business point of view . I like that idea. Starter fit AV and snipers are a huge problem.
Crm234 Wraith Shadow Guards 166	Posted - 2013.01.06 17:40:00 - [10] - Quote As a FPS player I want to see what is out there for weapons , I want to try all the weapons and see if I like them. Right now I only get to use the AR because i have SP in it. I hate that I cant see a weapons full potential without at least getting everything to Lvl 3.Taking away starter fits when there garbage anyway just says we want no new player base screw you. Problems are due to Map design and poor understanding of why FPS games funnel gameplay. Other games balance snipers buy keeping their hit points low so they fear being spotted and tons of cover in a map to cause them to have to move constantly. Im not a fan of Snipers but not to the point where they have to play for 2 weeks to get a rifle and enjoy the experience. No disrespect , but since we are all in a closed beta with very little new players . We tend to forget what it was like in the beginning. I promise you , you would be very upset tomorrow if CCP wiped your SP to test your feature.

RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2013.01.06 17:51:00 - [11] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: More limits in a sandbox game = totally missing the point of a sandbox game More seriously; your theory is flawed, if a new player is starts a match, gets crushed, has his team redlined and then pulls out a starter sniper fit (as per your post) it's not the sniper fit making the game less fun, it's the redline. And forcing someone to run a starter assault rather than a starter sniper (after they've already gotten crushed, gone neg, and had their team redlined) isn't going to make it a more competitive match. The real result of this will be more people leaving the match or spawning in the MCC and never deploying (both of which already happen in abundance and we need less of, not more). Now granted just going sniping because things have gone poorly isn't a good tactic, but the game shouldn't be built around the concept of mechanically preventing poor tactics, that's directly converse to a player driven sandbox experience. The real problem is that teams getting "redlined" is too common/easy and the solution isn't going to be found in tweaking gear or fits, it's a macro problem which needs a macro solution (such as terrain resculpting, redline touch ups, and enhanced matchmaking). +1
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 152	Posted - 2013.01.06 18:06:00 - [12] - Quote Part of the problem is also the boneheads that don't use tactics and keep trying to do COD/BF style rambo bs. If it's doesn't work in real life it shouldn't work in a game. Unfortunately the tools that make COD/BF and it's ilk have never been in a real fire fight so they watch moronic movies like Marine and think that's how it is.
BattleCry1791 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 116	Posted - 2013.01.07 02:49:00 - [13] - Quote Crm234 wrote: As a FPS player I want to see what is out there for weapons , I want to try all the weapons and see if I like them. Right now I only get to use the AR because i have SP in it. I hate that I cant see a weapons full potential without at least getting everything to Lvl 3.Taking away starter fits when there garbage anyway just says we want no new player base screw you. Problems are due to Map design and poor understanding of why FPS games funnel gameplay. Other games balance snipers buy keeping their hit points low so they fear being spotted and tons of cover in a map to cause them to have to move constantly. Im not a fan of Snipers but not to the point where they have to play for 2 weeks to get a rifle and enjoy the experience. No disrespect , but since we are all in a closed beta with very little new players . We tend to forget what it was like in the beginning. I promise you , you would be very upset tomorrow if CCP wiped your SP to test your feature. I just restarted my character, so no, it wouldn't. And yeah, it is a little messed up that there could exist a "tanked" sniper. Past that, the militia gear is there to let you dabble, as well as passive SP and two other characters. It's not a perfect solution, but it does set this game apart from others. As it is in EvE, it is in DUST
KalOfTheRathi CowTek 168	Posted - 2013.01.07 03:42:00 - [14] - Quote I never said a single 725 ISK suit was expensive because it isn't. What is expensive is requiring 50,000 SP to know whether you even want to play in that park. That is what is expensive. You need two to three levels in a weapon and the appropriate weapon support skills. Without being able to respec SP (and the required ISK) then starter kits are important. Every version you remove reduces the interest to potential new players. Otherwise the New Player is just fodder for you. It makes it easier for you I realize but that isn't my goal. That is your one and only goal and I realize that as you are very clear about that. Let's continue on with a real New Player. They need yet another ~50K SP for a suit class and at least a cool half million to fund it. And at that point they own nothing so they need even more to go get the bits to play with. New Players don't understand what it takes to survive. The first thing I learned is how to make a profit, win or lose, live or die. I needed that half million for the Drop Suit. Now, I need ~400K in SP to get to the next level of that same Suit. It is going to have to wait. And I would like to use an additional Drop Suit as well. Talk about pricey. You don't care about New Players as you would just rather they were constantly behind you. Or oblivious and directly in front of you looking the other way. Easy pickings, Eh? In particular when the SP cap is going to make absolutely certain they can never catch up to you. You starting over means nothing. You already understand the game. The only reason you are starting over is because you have a clear idea of what you want to do this time. And since the wipe will be coming you aren't really gambling anything at all now are you? So stating you are starting over is just spreading Kitty Litter and hoping I won't notice, frankly. It means nothing in the context of a New To Dust 514 Player. You cannot ever be that again. As to Eve, it is a special place filled with special people that I don't know and rarely care to. They are all proud of being murdering backstabbing traitorous thieves that constantly threaten any and all new players. Least someone comes in and murders them. Fine, let it take years to get a mid size freighter with just a hole to vacuum for a toilet. I don't care. I like playing these Mercs. Not many New Players are going to want to suffer the excruciating amount of time it takes to get barely functional that Eve players are so proud of. They want to play, shoot, get shot at (but missed) and all the other things Dust is talking about. All you talk about it preventing the very thing Dust 514 is offering. I disagree with your position. And every position you will ever have that reduces the possibilities for new players to enjoy this game. Which, so far, seems to be every single one of them.
BattleCry1791 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 116	Posted - 2013.01.07 15:23:00 - [15] - Quote Kal, Kal, Kal. Let's take a moment shall we and ponder the term "Derail a thread". Per the urban dictionary: Derailing a thread: The act of throwing a thread in a discussion forum off topic, oftentimes so much so that the original discussion is unable to continue. The reason I bring this up is because what you are talking about and what I'm talking about aren't even remotely in the same universe. What I'm talking about it removing a basic starter fit that has been proven time and time again to lead to redline sniping. My position is that redline sniping hurts the game far more than having the fit for people to try out for free. Have you priced out what the cost would be, in Militia Gear, to create a fit like Sniper starter fit? Less than 3K. I got 14K for spawning into a loss with 30 secs to go the other night. It's next to nothing. But at least the new player coming in has to build it to use it. That's all I'm saying. I'm not limiting squat. I'm not taking choice away from anyone that shouldn't have the choice taken away. Choices have consequences right? If you choose to NOT to be a sniper at character creation, I don't think it's a horrible thing to not issue them a sniper rifle. That was my whole point. One tiny, small change to try to prevent the bucketheads that play PSN FPS's from making for bad games just like they always do because they have access to a freakin' sniper rifle as soon as they hit start. Now, you Kal.....oh Kal, ole buddy ole pal have gone so far in the other direction, we'll have to take a bus to get back to the station where the train left that you derailed. 1) This is what you typed "I switched to Mil Logi immediately and at 725 ISK it was expensive until I figured some of the tactics out. Which isn't very difficult, just daunting initially." Ok, right there, that part....that's where you said 725 ISK was expensive. Now, maybe you meant something else (and judging by your massive 20 car trainwreck you did) and that's fine. But please, let's not be stupid here. You typed it, it happened, it's what you said. 2) I think your definition of "dabbling" is just simply...well...I don't think that means what you think it means. Take a look at the attributes for the militia logi and the 50K SP Type I Logi's as you've cited that as an example. Nary a freaking functionality difference. Sure there's PG and CPU differences, but those can be overcome by spending less than 7K on a few little skills you're going to want to max out eventually anyways. But from a "what does it do" standpoint they're very much identical. This is "dabbling". Trying out the role for cheap using the militia gear to see if you like it. Not throwing 50K SP into what is virtually the SAME gear. 3) You want to talk expensive? Try spec'ing for heavy, which is what I'm doing. And you don't hear me bitching about it. It's pretty obvious that CCP is trying to make the ARs the focal point of the game (ZOMG...they're LIMITING US BY CHARGING MOAR FOR TEH HEAVIES!!!!! Paging Cross Atu to the thread!!!!!). Considering that a level 3 AR costs a tenth of it's HMG counterpart. And don't get me started on the 787K price tag for the skillbook for the dropsuit. 4) You seem like a nice guy that legitimately thinks the SP price of things is prohibitive to keeping a player base. And thinking about it, you may be on to something. However, create your own damn thread. Because what you are talking about and what I'm talking about is like apples to meteorites. Doesn't mean your point isn't valid, just do it somewhere else. 5) I'm no fan of EvE either, played it, didn't like it. 6) You can't possibly disagree with my position since you weren't paying enough attention to the thread to see what it actually was. Now, choo choo, little train, back on the tracks.
Crm234 Wraith Shadow Guards 166	Posted - 2013.01.07 15:56:00 - [16] - Quote Every FPS has a starter gun for each type of class , so you can test the waters with a low class gun to get a feel for every aspect of the game. As you progress in FPS depending on what class you like you buy or level up that weapon to get better weapons in that class. Redline is caused by Dust not the rifle and it inability to want to balance its gameplay. Once you SP something you can carry it with any armor basically with the highest gun. I really like how MAG handled weapons that everyone hates. The better your weapon the heavier it made you causing you to have to go lower in armor. to compensate . Dust kills that effect by saying dont worry put SP in it and you can have the best armor and weapon .
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.01.07 16:10:00 - [17] - Quote BattleCry1791 wrote: Request: Elimination of Starter Sniper kits for non Snipers Reason: Because it's making the game bad. And you should feel bad. Supporting theory: Newbs with access to a sniper rifle tend to lead to redlining. They get their heads kicked in in the first five mins, try to respawn and realize there are no objectives open. Next thing they do is grab a sniper rifle and go hide in the mountains. And they do it in large numbers every game. The sniper class is one of the most abused classes in every FPS game ever made. "Man, I'm way negative, better pull out this stock sniper rifle I have no attachments/mods for and see if I can't even it up." Meanwhile, his teammates are getting crushed due to lack of support and the opposing team ain't scoring anything either because there's less opposition. The biggest problem is that it makes the game LESS FUN. It's less of a battle. If you remove the sniper starter gear from guys that are Sentinels and Enforcers, I think this will go a long ways towards cutting down on newb snipers. Disclaimer: Snipers can be useful. I had the opportunity to play with three guys all Friday night and that's all they did for the most part. They were pretty good at it and more importantly, they were actually able to set objectives for me (frago for you MAG players) and we all scored more points. Also, they realized their FIRST duty was to counter snipe. On no game before have I seen where snipers are as useful than DUST. So I'm not saying eliminate the sniper class, just quit handing them out like candy to every Tom, ****, and Harriet that logs into the game. If you're complaining about people switching to free sniper fitting once their team is already redlined, I can't see your point really. What else do you expect them to do? Keep pushing and go 0-20? The problem isn't a free sniper fitting. The problem is that it's so easy to lock down the other team's main spawn(s), so they have no chance of getting out of their spawn. If you're complaining about redline snipers in general, I still don't see your point. The solution isn't to remove the free sniper fitting. The solution is to prevent people from being able to redline snipe. Currently you can sit in the redline and see most of the map without any risk whatsoever. If you're sitting in your redline and sniping you should have a very limited view (or even no view at all) of the battlefield.
Pezz IsDank Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 171	Posted - 2013.01.07 18:47:00 - [18] - Quote Crm234 wrote: Redline is caused by Dust not the rifle and it inability to want to balance its gameplay. Once you SP something you can carry it with any armor basically with the highest gun. I really like how MAG handled weapons that everyone hates. The better your weapon the heavier it made you causing you to have to go lower in armor. to compensate . Dust kills that effect by saying dont worry put SP in it and you can have the best armor and weapon . Well, the the CPU/PG restriction does the same thing as the cost for loadouts in MAG. Unless they've changed the stats on everything a lot over the past few builds I recall not being able to so easily go all out proto due to CPU/PG limitations. I do hate redline snipers though and how slow it makes the game, I'd much rather have enemies pushing and trying to get out of the spawn trap instead of it being a borefest or everyone leaving. I think the person above me has a good point, it's more of an issue of being able to spawn camp the enemy team too easily. I do think that making it so that people have to spend isk to redline snipe would help a bit though.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 634	Posted - 2013.01.07 19:10:00 - [19] - Quote BattleCry1791 wrote: What I'm talking about it removing a basic starter fit that has been proven time and time again to lead to redline sniping. It's not that the fit is free, it's the ease and safety of redline sniping that makes it appealing to the people that do it. I doubt if their fits cost a few thousand ISK each that they'd stop. You'd just make it more of a hassle to new players, removing their initial options and requiring they spend time in the menus to figure out what's available in the game.
Crm234 Wraith Shadow Guards 166	Posted - 2013.01.07 19:52:00 - [20] - Quote Pezz IsDank wrote: Crm234 wrote: Redline is caused by Dust not the rifle and it inability to want to balance its gameplay. Once you SP something you can carry it with any armor basically with the highest gun. I really like how MAG handled weapons that everyone hates. The better your weapon the heavier it made you causing you to have to go lower in armor. to compensate . Dust kills that effect by saying dont worry put SP in it and you can have the best armor and weapon . Well, the the CPU/PG restriction does the same thing as the cost for loadouts in MAG. Unless they've changed the stats on everything a lot over the past few builds I recall not being able to so easily go all out proto due to CPU/PG limitations. I do hate redline snipers though and how slow it makes the game, I'd much rather have enemies pushing and trying to get out of the spawn trap instead of it being a borefest or everyone leaving. I think the person above me has a good point, it's more of an issue of being able to spawn camp the enemy team too easily. I do think that making it so that people have to spend isk to redline snipe would help a bit though. The difference is you can SP everything lighter allowing you to have i think the charged sniper rifle that pisses me off every skirmish game to the point where i bet you could put them in a starter sniper suit. Proto weapons should require the same suit. Giving the sense you want to walk around with the big gun , its going to cost you. If its not changed i could probable run a duovoult in a assault starter kit with 2 upgrades with SP. Right now i think i got it to run with the type 1 . MAG`s compromise was the better the weapon the lower the hitpoints you had . Where i could use a smg only and have heavy heavy armor. or have the best AR and have medium armor.

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.01.07 20:51:00 - [21] - Quote BattleCry1791 wrote: @ Cross Atu You sure love to type but you don't bother to read do you? Let's begin with your assessment that removing the sniper starter fit from the non sniper classes is limiting. Well, applying that logic to the rest of the game, why can't I have a starter gunnlogi? Or in EvE where's my militia Titan? That'd be silly right? That's not "limiting choice", that's how the game's built. Let's apply your "logic" to guns. Why am I "limited" to the amount of bullets I can carry? I can do this all day. I'm sure that you can, but even if you did it still wouldn't become lucid. You're creating an imbalanced set of choices by attempting to enforce a class system on a sandbox game. If you were saying "there should be no starter fits" that wouldn't create the kind of mechanical limitation/imbalance as your OP does. But you're not suggesting that, you're suggesting removing one specific sub-type of starter fits because you (erroneously) have concluded that it's the source of a type of tactic that you find distasteful. Even in your attempted comparison your reasoning fails to maintain basic internal cohesion, your attempt to draw a parallel between a militia starter fit and a Titan is ludicrous. The idea that you can lump every high meta piece of gear in New Eden into the context of starter fits by simply using "militia" as a prefix is either a straw man or the result of a lack of understanding regarding the fundamental mechanics of the game. In either case lumping together items of differing meta levels (and types, and for that matter games) is far from staying on point or even remotely addressing my post. Quote: Video games are all about limits. The only argument is why limit this or why limit that. So in your perception what then is sandbox gaming and how does it play out within the perspective of your advocated paradigm? Or is your contention that the sandbox development philosophy is simply a fiction or a con? Or perhaps are you simply refusing to address this aspect which I've been bringing up since the first line of my first post? Quote: There's really no balance issue in regards to the Starter Sniper kits. So it falls to gameplay. And I can tell you right now, letting newbs have a sniper starter kits drags down the gameplay for the reasons I've listed. I've seen it happen tens of thousands of times and that's no exaggeration. I've just been playing FPS's that freakin' long. And let's get another thing straight. It's not a sandbox. It's a battlefield. If there's no battle going on, then it's just boring, and no one is making any ISK, SP, WP, or being challenged. And it's not "my way". It can only be "my way" if the sun coming up in the east every day is "the sun's way". It's a constant, a force of nature, whatever you want to call it. It might as well be a mathematical equation. So you're now equating the relevance and meaning of whether or not a new player has access to a given starter fit more or less to a mathematics or a force of nature? :p And you contend that something so universal, so implacable and immutable (as "the suns way") is both A)something totally obvious and irrefutable but that multiple professional developers from more than one international gaming entity have simply completely overlooked throughout the beta prior to your post. And B) going to be fixed by limiting some new players from accessing a specific starter fit, as per your OP Quote: Request: Elimination of Starter Sniper kits for non Snipers So what happens when guides or reviews are written about D514 wherein some tips are offered and among those tips is "select to sniper starter class to ensure access to all starter fits." What happens if this were to occur at some point prior to live launch, say for instance next build when we hit Open Beta? At that point the net effect of your OP on the state of play when we reach live is next to nothing (save having used up a bit of Dev time to make the change). Quote: You're worrying about players that will play this for maybe a month or two and then quit for various reasons. I'm trying to prevent them from messing with the dedicated players' good time for the short duration they are here and you're just being a snarky, too smart for his own good (and don't confuse that with actually being intelligent), standard Eve mousejocky. Presumptive much? You know who will and won't play the game and for how long, and you know this during Closed Beta with the key trait being what? Their willingness to pull out a sniper rifle while redlined? This reasoning is begging for a Wanka meme poster. So you're worried about these players "messing with" the "dedicated players" but you don't credit these dedicated players with being able to head to FW, or Corp battles, or run in squads who can have a good time in a bad match, or counter snipe, or work around snipers, or use the opportunity of a secured field to practice new tactics, or play around with cross redline hacking, installation destruction or "death taxi" etc. In short you contend that these "dedicated players" are incapable of enjoying the game they are ostensibly dedicated too if new players (whom they are pub stomping) are allowed access to a Meta 0 starter fit for the "maybe month or two" that they're in the game? Dubious at best, self-righteous QQ'ing at worst. To be blunt I'm leaning heavily towards the latter considering that you've chosen to close your response with off topic ad hominem rhetoric.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1062	Posted - 2013.01.08 01:32:00 - [22] - Quote This thread isn't about removing militia sniper rifles and such- just stopping them from being used too much.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 285	Posted - 2013.01.08 01:54:00 - [23] - Quote BattleCry1791 wrote: Request: Elimination of Starter Sniper kits for non Snipers Reason: Because it's making the game bad. And you should feel bad. Supporting theory: Newbs with access to a sniper rifle tend to lead to redlining. They get their heads kicked in in the first five mins, try to respawn and realize there are no objectives open. Next thing they do is grab a sniper rifle and go hide in the mountains. And they do it in large numbers every game. The sniper class is one of the most abused classes in every FPS game ever made. "Man, I'm way negative, better pull out this stock sniper rifle I have no attachments/mods for and see if I can't even it up." Meanwhile, his teammates are getting crushed due to lack of support and the opposing team ain't scoring anything either because there's less opposition. The biggest problem is that it makes the game LESS FUN. It's less of a battle. If you remove the sniper starter gear from guys that are Sentinels and Enforcers, I think this will go a long ways towards cutting down on newb snipers. Disclaimer: Snipers can be useful. I had the opportunity to play with three guys all Friday night and that's all they did for the most part. They were pretty good at it and more importantly, they were actually able to set objectives for me (frago for you MAG players) and we all scored more points. Also, they realized their FIRST duty was to counter snipe. On no game before have I seen where snipers are as useful than DUST. So I'm not saying eliminate the sniper class, just quit handing them out like candy to every Tom, ****, and Harriet that logs into the game. Sounds as though you just don't like the fact that noobs can kill you while you farm the redline. Diddums.
Kaathe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 41	Posted - 2013.01.08 02:51:00 - [24] - Quote It's a Beta guys. SOON(tm). Calm down. All your problems will be solved one way or another. Complaining about how a person plays can not be prevented, altered, or influenced; especially in a sandbox game. One post mentioned about limiting a sandbox game defeats the purpose of a sandbox game...that I can agree with. Dust will have interactions with EVE; coming up with play styles and techniques is what you do in a persistent MMO based game, as well as any other game for that matter. If the problems persist then it's not really a problem at all, that's the way it is. You can deal with the problem, you can overcome the problem, or be part of the problem. However, you can't limit what you can't control. -1 this idea. I don't see the logic in limiting or imposing or restricting my play style in order to cater to someone's needs.
BattleCry1791 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 116	Posted - 2013.01.08 08:25:00 - [25] - Quote Never in my life have I come across an online community so completely oblivious, obtuse, thick headed, and bassackwards. @ Cross, congrats, you finally got it. You can disagree with it, but at least you finally got it after all the shifting the paradigm macro resolutioning you had to work through, you finally got it. @ the rest of you: You all need to understand one thing, and this will make this issue very clear. People, for the most part, act like idiots. People play video games Most people that play video games act like idiots. The vast majority of FPS players have never logged onto a message board for that game. They don't use mics. They don't look at walk throughs on the internet, and if they do it's long after they started playing. Most gamers do not do research. They buy things because they think it's cool and it'll be a fun waste of time. If you really want to understand your basic PSN FPS player you need to look no further than the best selling games like BF3 and the CoD series...which are designed for and cater to the lowest common denominator....ie mouth breathing knuckle heads. This kind of gamer is not you who are reading this thread. And for most of you, you can't imagine what it's like to be that player. You're too smart, too savvy, and too dedicated to your gaming to do it. You literally cannot dumb yourselves down enough to understand their motivations and where they come from. "Well if the fit only costs 3K then they'll just make the fits and it won't really change anything". Wrong. Because this kind of player...it won't even dawn on them to try it. They're just that dumb. And they make up about 70% or more of every player base that has ever existed in an FPS. I'm sure you're sitting there going "What an elitist ******". Am I really? Think; think long and hard about your own online experiences. How many times in your gaming life have you've said something to the effect of "WTF BLUE DOT? WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" How many times have you said it this week? How many times have you personally died online due ot the sheer incompetence of your own teammates (everyone makes mistakes, but repeated patterns of stupidity leads to...well...people are stupid). This is a free to d/l game. If there is no tiering in matchmaking or even balancing of rosters in matchmaking, this is the kind of player you're going to teamed with. And his shelf life is maybe 3 months before he moves on. With the learning curve on this game, it's probably shorter. So do you really want that player messing with your development? Am I saying screw that guy? You bet. Because he's already screwing you before he even logs on. Summation: I again testify with my 20 plus years of gaming (I am that old...got BBS?) that all of the above is true and that if you take away the basic starter sniper fir out of the game, you will see less redline sniping. Will it eliminate it? No. Will it mitigate it a great deal? Yes. Why is this even an issue? Because redlining is no fun. Redlining means no ISK, SP, or WP is being made. This will be less of an issue if roster balancing and tiering happens. That would be the number one cure. But it still doesn't change the fact that if you take away the sniper starter fit, we'll see less of it right now* I'm done with this thread. I believe I have made my point. For any posts beyond this one, I would give a ****, but I already gave it to your mother last night.


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