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Bucktooth Badger
Buck's Intergalactic Pawn Shop
65
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Posted - 2013.01.03 17:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well IGÇÖve spent the last few weeks specialising into Swarm Launchers to try & give some constructive feedback to the community. But I see there are a couple of threads (ignoring the playground flamers) that have given some feedback already.
Anyway, being IGÇÖve done the work & tried each variant in several games, IGÇÖll post my findings anyway. This will be a lot of text as I try to give my own objective, constructive & detailed feedback on the Swarm Launcher as a weapon class. :o)
First off, letGÇÖs dispel a couple of myths that are floating around: -
Swarm Launchers can not lock on to vehicles that are hiding behind cover. In my investigation you need at least 25% of a vehicle showing before you can get a lock on, then that is a bit touch & go in itself.
This build especially, swarm missiles can not do any crazy manoeuvres to reach their target. They are not very smart, much to my annoyance on occasions!
I know there are rumours of missiles winding around buildings, putting on fake moustaches & pretending to be delivering pizzas in order to hit their target. But in my experience, that is simply not the case. If a missile is within a few meters of its target then it might seem to do a crazy move to follow you behind cover, but it is just following your signature path as you move.
If you are encountering any of these issues in your game, then I would suggest there are other factors affecting the game such as possible lag or whatever.
My view on the Swarm Launcher is that it is literally a light infantry Anti Vehicle Weapon that is more for close quarter combat with vehicles rather than long distance.
It is primarily for quick engagement GÇô fire, forget & run away! :o)
As such, I have skilled up in my side arm, to fight any infantry support units the tank may have.
My particular tactic is to sneak up close to a HAV, throw a couple of flux grenades to weaken the shields & then start the onslaught from my Swarm launcher. Nothing more enjoyable than seeing a lone soldier chasing a tank as it tries to speed away. :o)
Dumb firing GÇô
No, just no! :o)
Initially I was in favour of dumb firing, and was disappointed when they removed it.
However, after spending a lot of time with the swarm launchers, I can now see what a nightmare they would be.
Imagine, several campers high up on a hill, with a lonely goat herder & a couple of nanohives just blindly laying waste to the battle field with proto swarm launchersGǪand we thought drop ships launchers were a problem!!
So no!! If you want dumb firing, get a mass driver or wait for the plasma cannon! :o)
But definitely no for swarms! I know people say that this is needed for anti-infantry, but swarm launchers arenGÇÖt for infantry theyGÇÖre anti-vehicle. Get yourself a SMG for infantry.
Locking on GÇô
One issue with Locking on I have is that, it is way too slow especially with the prototype variant, seems bizarre to me that the militia launcher can lock on quicker than a prototype weapon. So I would like the locking speed decreased throughout the levels, but also to have a variance in place. What I mean by this is that, I think the targets profile / dampening skill should affect the length of time it takes for a swarm launcher to lock on.
Launching the missiles GÇô
The actual launch is vastly improved over last build, but still just doesnGÇÖt sit right.
I feel that the missiles should be launched as one missile, and then after a couple of meters separate into however many rockets that variant launchers.
Amount of missiles GÇô
These are fine as they are, except for the militia I think needs a reduction.
Tracking Path GÇô
Again, this has improved so much since last build, but some improvement is still needed. Especially against drop ships, missiles are still trying to GÇÿget behindGÇÖ the ship rather than taking the quickest path.
Distance GÇô
This does need altering, but again I think this should be based on the variant used. Militia havenGÇÖt the lowest effective distance, while prototype/office having the longest distance.
In addition, once the missiles have actually reached their max distance & havenGÇÖt hit anything they should fall to the ground & detonate, with some splash damage rather than massive explosions.
Damage GÇô
Militia needs a big reduction, as do the lower variants, plus I think the proto needs a slight increase.
Splash Damage GÇô
Now, I know thereGÇÖs some debate on splash damage as to whether it exists for swarm launchers now and in my experience it does, and is actually working as it should.
IGÇÖm 99% sure that when IGÇÖve hit a tank, if there are infantry close by (HAV protection squads) then they have suffered damage, which is handy when I have to mop up with my SMG.
My suggestion for splash damage requires some lateral thinking here, I feel that the low tech weapons should have the greatest splash damage radius per missile but the lowest damage. Where as the high tech missiles, should have the lowest splash radius but highest damage, my thinking being they are higher tech weapons & therefore should have more focussed explosions.
Ammo GÇô
Even though a few times IGÇÖve run out of ammo in the most annoying circumstances, the ammo level is about right for all the launchers. If youGÇÖre running a swarm then you should really be carrying a nanohive so you can operate effectively.
TBC.... |
Bucktooth Badger
Buck's Intergalactic Pawn Shop
65
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Posted - 2013.01.03 17:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Conclusion
Overall, as with most of the weapon classes, I think the Swarm Launcher needs a bit of an overhaul. The lower tech weapons need a bit of a nerf & the higher tech need a buff. I have to admit, I am a bit perplexed with the Tactical Launcher, itGÇÖs a nice idea having the ability to fire at two different targets. But as they are at the moment, they are a bit underpowered, however if you buff them, then they could potentially become overpowered when used just against one target. So maybe itGÇÖs best to leave them as is at the moment.
But over the last couple of weeks, I have come to love the swarm launcher, to the point that I think I will go down this route after the game is GÇÿreleasedGÇÖ. I love hunting tanks, I just wish I could afford to run Proto swarms all the time & not just on special occasions, with a particularly well built HAV is cruising the field. :o)
Righty, suggestion box time!! :o)
Taking in what IGÇÖve said above, here are my suggestions for changing the swarm launchers depending on their class: -
Militia
Max Missiles - 3
Range GÇô 200m
Damage GÇô 200
Lock on time GÇô 2.5 seconds
Splash Radius GÇô 1.5 m
Splash Damage GÇô 20 per missile
Standard
Max Missiles - 4
Range GÇô 225m
Damage GÇô 250
Lock on time GÇô 2 seconds
Splash Radius GÇô 1.25 m
Splash Damage GÇô 22 per missile
Advanced GÇô
Max Missiles - 5
Range GÇô 250m
Damage GÇô 300
Lock on time GÇô 1.5 seconds
Splash Radius GÇô 1 m
Splash Damage GÇô 30 per missile
Prototype GÇô
Max Missiles - 6
Range GÇô 300m
Damage GÇô 350
Lock on time GÇô 1 seconds
Splash Radius GÇô 0.8 m
Splash Damage GÇô 35 per missile
Locking without raising your weapon should add an extra 0.5 seconds to the time.
For the special variants that cost less resources, but increase lock on times.
I would suggest adding 0.5 seconds to which ever class they are in.
The above are the base values. So the current skills & what they affect are fine and should be applied accordingly to the above suggested stats.
As I mentioned before as well, I think the targets dampening / profile should affect the lock on times. So my suggestion is that for each level of the dampening skill the target has, it increases the lock on time for a Swarm Launcher by 20%.
An example would be a Swarm Launcher with a proto launcher going up against a HAV driver with a dampening skill of 5 would actually take two seconds to lock on instead of the usual 1 second.
Now I know what youGÇÖre all thinking, 1 second is too quick. But believe me, when youGÇÖre standing in front of a well specced HAV which is aiming its heavy blaster at your head then 1 second is an eternity!!! :o)
So thatGÇÖs my feedback, I hope you feel IGÇÖve taken an objective approach & offered some constructive suggestions.
My apologies for the length as well! :o)
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Ulysses Knapse
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
73
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 02:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
No. It creates too much of a variance. Prototype becomes too strong (2100 Damage) and Militia becomes too weak (600 Damage). Damage overall should be decreased, and the Swarm Launcher should be designated as a long-range missile anti-armor weapon, as opposed to the Forge Gun.
Also, you shouldn't be being attacked by the HAV while locking on. You deserve to die if that happens. But what if it is a railgun tank? That's bad. |
RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 02:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bucktooth Badger wrote:
First off, letGÇÖs dispel a couple of myths that are floating around: -
Swarm Launchers can not lock on to vehicles that are hiding behind cover. In my investigation you need at least 25% of a vehicle showing before you can get a lock on, then that is a bit touch & go in itself.
This build especially, swarm missiles can not do any crazy manoeuvres to reach their target. They are not very smart, much to my annoyance on occasions!
I know there are rumours of missiles winding around buildings, putting on fake moustaches & pretending to be delivering pizzas in order to hit their target. But in my experience, that is simply not the case. If a missile is within a few meters of its target then it might seem to do a crazy move to follow you behind cover, but it is just following your signature path as you move.
If you are encountering any of these issues in your game, then I would suggest there are other factors affecting the game such as possible lag or whatever.
I definately dont agree with everything youve said but this is definately true. I dont know what games these people are playing, but its pretty hard to use swarms. Between obstacles and tanks running to their precious redlines I can barely make a dent in them. And lord forbid the tanker actually made a good tank, then they just sit there and take my swarms and laugh at me. Without a good forge gunner and another swarmmer or two its pretty hard to take down a good tank. |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
648
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Posted - 2013.01.04 03:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
I liked it better when there was variance, proto is loosing its value now.
What we need is FW to come out which is where you make the big payouts, and have high sec pay not enough to run proto gear, but you can grind ISK in. Proto should be getting used in FW and null not pubstomping hi sec,
Which would make more of a point to having gear with "better" stats |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 03:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
J'Jor Da'Wg wrote:I liked it better when there was variance, proto is loosing its value now.
What we need is FW to come out which is where you make the big payouts, and have high sec pay not enough to run proto gear, but you can grind ISK in. Proto should be getting used in FW and null not pubstomping hi sec,
Which would make more of a point to having gear with "better" stats
and once ppl get rich nothing stops them from running hi-end gear in pubs anyway so back to square one but with a big stat difference in gear.
Some ppl arent thinking this through proper but alas thats for another topic |
Godin Thekiller
KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND
14
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Posted - 2013.01.04 06:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
I skilled into AV on my alt for a week, and now I see that you need to switch out of being AV. It's too easy to kill with AV; especially with swarms |
RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 05:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:I skilled into AV on my alt for a week, and now I see that you need to switch out of being AV. It's too easy to kill with AV; especially with swarms
I dont know if Id say that. The only things that are really easy to kill are milita LAVs. Even some of those I have to 2 shot with a militia swarm if they havent taken any bump damage or some other sort of damage. Or sometimes the missiles hit screwy and do weird things. If people actually made good LAVs they wouldnt be so easy to pop. But considering they self destruct eventually if you get out of them I dont know that will happen often. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
414
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 08:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Reducing militia rocket count to three from four, and raising clip size to 3 from 2 could be good for militia.
Swarms don't lock through objects, but they used too in old builds. A tank driver may not be able to see a infantry that can see him due to difference in widths, giving impression the infantry locked without los like old build.
The missiles trying to get behind is because they take the quickest path to current location of a moving target. Turning toward the target only till aligned within a minimum angle, then maintaining that angle builds in a lead, and therefore a more efficient path to target. The FIM-92 stinger uses this approach to engage targets. |
Bucktooth Badger
Buck's Intergalactic Pawn Shop
65
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Posted - 2013.01.05 13:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback so far folks!
One thing to keep in mind when I'm suggesting the damage rate changes, is that you are assuming that all missiles hit their target. This does not happen all the time, especially with the occasional wild behavior of the missiles, hitting cover etc.
Also, at greater firing distances the time to hit the target gives a chance for the target to get out of the way, hide behind cover etc etc.
In open space & at closer distance, granted there is a greater chance of all missiles hitting & getting max damage. However, bear in mind that at close range it is possible for a basic AR to do over 1800 damage in a second or so <- Please don't start flaming now about ARs or whatever. I'm using this as an example about using the potential Max Damage as a stat.
As for deserving to die, as I mentioned above I see & play the SL as a CQC AV weapon, so as soon as I throw my flux grenades & launched my first volley of missiles then I have revealed my position. So if the HAV isn't already starting to get me in it's sights, then well that HAV deserves what's coming!
As a tip for HAV drivers, I highly recommend picking up gunners for your small turrets, it will make my job much harder. Far too often I come across HAVs with just the driver, usually with a rail gun as a main turret, this leaves your HAV vulnerable.
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Django Quik
R.I.f.t
220
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Posted - 2013.01.05 18:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
I love running AV on this game and am pretty happy with the way swarms are on the whole, minus a couple of minor gripes...
I agree that the missile dispersal should be delayed - it is way too difficult to fire from near any kind of structure without at least one or two (sometimes even ALL) of the missiles hitting a wall or overhang within their first second of firing.
I have said similar thing about locking on before - this should be affected by scan profile (and thus dampening modules). I think also though locking times should be affected by distance to target. A big ol' tank right in front of you meters away should be able to lock almost instantly but the same tank across the map should take several seconds.
You mentioned something about locking without raising your weapon but never went into any detail on this - my first reaction is to say this sounds stupid; how can you possibly lock with a weapon without raising it to aim?
I disagree with the change in damage that you propose, especially if you want to take a missile from the militia (basically making it worthless and useless). At proto level you're already going to be getting extra damage from proficiency anyway, so they don't really need anything extra.
As an aside, I would like to see an option to choose your sidearm as the default weapon and AV as a secondary - that way you can spawn with an anti-infantry weapon or use some equipment and have a gun at the ready then pull out the AV when appropriate.
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RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
51
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Posted - 2013.01.06 01:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
One change I would really like to see with swarms is non-militia variants have a total of 8 salvos instead of 6. This is honestly only cause Im a little OCD and hate loading 2 rounds into a weapon that holds 4. At the very least the proto version should hold 8 because of its cost in isk and SP. |
Bucktooth Badger
Buck's Intergalactic Pawn Shop
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 10:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:
You mentioned something about locking without raising your weapon but never went into any detail on this - my first reaction is to say this sounds stupid; how can you possibly lock with a weapon without raising it to aim?
Some, if not all?, of the variants have the ability to target & lock on to a vehicle without raising your scope sight (Button L1) all youneed to do is just hold button R1 this will bring up a targeting box to find your target.
However, I *believe* there are some limitations to this, as in you can only lock targets that are closer to you & I'm pretty sure the lock on time is extended. Hence, why I suggested keeping the variance of the lock time with scope or not.
The way I see it is that with the SL selected, you are always running around with it on your shoulder but just choose whether to use the scope or not, depending on the target.
As for my suggested damage alterations, I have made this based on the long game thinking not just what we've currently got.
The militia stats will still have a significant impact on weaker LAVs & provide an annoyance to a well specc'd HAV.
Where as Proto, I think, should annihilate all but a well built LAV (there are some out there already that I need to atleast 2 shot.)
HAVs are a little more complicated, as none of them should be 1 shotted. However, a couple of flux grenades & a single volley should destroy the weakest HAVs.
But as players & their HAVs get stronger, the HAVs will again start to pull away from AV until once again they are dominating the field. Hence why I've asked for a small increase, to give an AV team that little bit of an extra chance to keep up with HAV development .... BUT still require at least 2 Skilled AV to cause some serious damage to a hardcore HAVs.
As an example, in a recent game someone was running a serious HAV, I used 2 flux grenades & 3 volleys from my proto (2 complex damage mods) & a fellow AVer hit it once/twice with an officer forge gun & we only just managed to reduce it's shields to zero. Fortunately the game ended as I think we would have been effd.
I'm not complaining, as that was a long, intense & enjoyable battle. But if there was another one of those tanks on the field we would have had less than the tiny chance we had with just the one!
So a slight increase in damage for proto would at least give the illusion of hope. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
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Posted - 2013.01.06 17:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Support- the skill needs to be less useless too; instead of increasing splash radius per level (splash damage is so low it's pointless), it should decrease lock time. |
RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
51
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Posted - 2013.01.06 17:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Support- the skill needs to be less useless too; instead of increasing splash radius per level (splash damage is so low it's pointless), it should decrease lock time.
Or possibly increase missile speed. Something useful is definately needed. |
AmlSeb
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.01.06 18:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
I agree with you in most points but the gap between Militia and Proto is much too big in your suggestions.
The damage per missle, splash damage per missle and splash radius should be the same for all. The tier launchers get their higher damage output from the additional missles.
The lock on time should be rather 2.5/2.0/1.75/1.5 because its pretty easy to lock on if you are just a bit hidden. |
Thranx1231
CowTek
90
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 00:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
The Militia Swarm is nearly useless as it is. You just want to make attempting to use it a complete waste of time, which is obviously your point. You could have been honest and just said you wanted the Militia Swarm eliminated. Kitten Canned.
The Militia Swarm has a tough time taking out even Militia HAVs and DSs. Unless they aren't running anything in their slots and have a brand new operator. It might take out an installation if somebody has been kind enough to strip some of the shields first. Or some of the armor even though the shields have regenerated. Without a Hive a Supply Depot or a Clone Whatever Unit are impossible. Half the missiles miss because of obstacles.
In addition, it is not an easy weapon to use. Sure we have the postings, if the poor player has used them, but until you actually use the silly thing the controls don't actually make much sense. This may be the first weapon someone will use that has that silly lock on/charge functionality. It is not natural nor explained nor intuitive. Once it is understood it is okay. But that is the best it will ever be. Release the trigger to fire? It is so obvious.
The Militia Swarm has four missiles but easily half will miss, at least half the time. So your reduction is already in force. If you can make the Kitten missiles actually hit the Kitten target then I might Kitten agree. But they sure as Kitten can't and never Kitten will. An adequate pilot can outrun them. A good HAV driver can avoid them and, just by presenting a different profile, avoid them. At 200 meters even a noob wouldn't be terribly troubled by them.
I have gotten half credit for a HAV kill. I took their shields down and half the armor. A Forge Gunner got it before it escaped. Good thing too, I was out of Kitten ammo. Again.
Your solution, and all the others that love to lament about the existence of Militia gear, would mean others will have to spend even more precious capped SP to try out weapons they may actually hate and never use more than an attempt or two. Which doesn't matter if you have been around long enough to have collected millions of it.
The problem isn't noobs running Militia Gear. It is experienced players that have Weapons at 5 and Light Weapons skills maxed out or nearly so. And they are just saving ISK. |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
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Posted - 2013.01.07 06:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Thranx1231 wrote:
The problem isn't noobs running Militia Gear. It is experienced players that have Weapons at 5 and Light Weapons skills maxed out or nearly so. And they are just saving ISK.
Sadly this right here is the reason why so many weapons are considered OP. If the difference between a militia and proto AR is one bullet at maxed skill, then the pattern will hold across the board for ridiculous effect.
i'm bluntly convinced that a militia forge wielded by someone with max forge skills is the source of 99% of our AV complaints since guys like me are still getting rickrolled by tanks with assault forges. |
AmlSeb
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.01.07 13:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thranx1231 wrote:The Militia Swarm is nearly useless as it is. You just want to make attempting to use it a complete waste of time, which is obviously your point. You could have been honest and just said you wanted the Militia Swarm eliminated. Kitten Canned.
The Militia Swarm has a tough time taking out even Militia HAVs and DSs. Unless they aren't running anything in their slots and have a brand new operator. It might take out an installation if somebody has been kind enough to strip some of the shields first. Or some of the armor even though the shields have regenerated. Without a Hive a Supply Depot or a Clone Whatever Unit are impossible. Half the missiles miss because of obstacles.
You can-¦t count this. It-¦s impossible to kill them solo if the DS or tank is at the same level as your SL. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 16:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=395038
Fire and forget should be a harassment only weapon. Swarms are a no-skill weapon currently which hurts the targets and the users. |
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RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
51
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Posted - 2013.01.07 20:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=395038
Fire and forget should be a harassment only weapon. Swarms are a no-skill weapon currently which hurts the targets and the users.
Not true. You simply want "god mode" tanks. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 21:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
RECON BY FIRE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=395038
Fire and forget should be a harassment only weapon. Swarms are a no-skill weapon currently which hurts the targets and the users. Not true. You simply want "god mode" tanks.
You are pulling that assumption out your ass. I simply want to make DUST a game about skill and risk. As it stands now swarms are a broken weapon class. |
RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 22:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=395038
Fire and forget should be a harassment only weapon. Swarms are a no-skill weapon currently which hurts the targets and the users. Not true. You simply want "god mode" tanks. You are pulling that assumption out your ass. I simply want to make DUST a game about skill and risk. As it stands now swarms are a broken weapon class.
So you want to promote skill and risk by reducing the skill level of tankers and the risk to tankers? So how are you not wanting "god mode" for tanks? |
Sytonis Auran
Valor Coalition
RISE of LEGION
52
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Posted - 2013.01.07 23:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
While the OP may be a close range swarm user, it should not be evaluated solely as such.
Swarm launchers are a ranged weapon, which can operate in predetermined locations which in all likelyhood have nanhives to resupply themselves. This location can either be difficult to climb up to or have cover to duck behind when reloading. While these aren't stats on a the swarm launcher, the weapon should be evaluated with them in mind.
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