DUST Search - AV vs. Vehicle Changes

Bojo The Mighty wrote:

WHz DS9899 wrote:

Mandatory changes- they need to not be able to bend around big structures so they won't always hit. They also need a short targeting distance to be able to fire at the vehicles so people won't stay in their bases and fire at a nearby vehicle. Lastly, they need Los to fire. Also, militia has to stand still to be able to fire

Option 1: lower the damage and splash damage, but make the missiles faster, and being able to fire off faster, but having a targeting distance of about 50-75m and a flight distance of about 150-175

OR

Option 2: keep the damage, speed, make the targeting distance 100m, and flight distance 100m.

I don't use anything but Militia Swarms, but I've flown enough DS to say that they are well balanced in this build. You can see them a mile away, outrun them easily, etc.

You mentioned you're a HAV driver. HAVs are slow and bulky, no wonder a swarm can hit you. But your HAV can take it easily.
I am a DS pilot and an LAV driver, so Option 1 completely disrupts the use of variable vane turbines on LAVs and would make DS pilots very angry. It would actually imbalance the Swarms in favor of them because for the lesser protected vehicles that rely on speed and agility, Swarms would become a much worse threat, especially when there are something like 3 Swarm Launchers all honing in on the same DS.

Option 2 is a Super nerf hammer to Swarms. An LAV can go up to 40 m/s, so in 2.5 seconds, a Baloch or Onikuma can make ISwarms disappear in a flash.

Well if they fixed how DS's fly, then they wouldn't get mad over it. And if a proto swarm hits any LAV, that LAV is going down fast and hard as is now. And you know that means that you got 4 seconds to hit a LAV going at top speed, which you never see unless your on a flat open map. If they tried going top speed all the time, they would crash, and ended up being blown up from by swarms anyways. Think about it for a second.

Swarms are fine as they are. Sure they are a light weapon, but the user has no control over the Swarm. The vehicle pilot can easily manipulate swarms at a distance to crash. There are also only 6 shots in a Swarm launcher with no Capacity Skills.
They are fine.

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WHz DS9899 Doomheim 136	Posted - 2013.01.02 16:29:00 - [1] - Quote AV wins aginst vehicles any day. Swarms can hide behind mountains and destroy any poor pilot targeted. Forge Guns can one shot almost any vehicle, and don't get me started on A and flux grenades! And the worst part? The SP and ISK requirements to make a really good vehicle setup compared to a really good AV setup is stupidly far apart it's shameful. But don't worry, as I think I have a way to fix this dilima without gimpin AV in the process! But before you say "this guy has no experience with AV, so this is BS", this is actually a alt of mine that focuses on AV, and my main does mainly vehicles with HAV's being the focus. Therefore, I think I know a thing or two about both So here's my idea: From what I can tell, a AV grenade does 2000-3000 damage on shields and that's at base Lvl. That's way too high, and basically everyone able to kill a vehicle without any effort. It needs to be toned down to about 800-1000 at base, and 2000 at max. Flux grenades needs to be decreased by 200 each. Swarms are powerful, can lock onto any vehicle from anywhere, even behind mountains where the said vehicle can't even fire back, and still land hit after hit after hit. Therefore, a couple of things should happen to make it a even fight: Mandatory changes- they need to not be able to bend around big structures so they won't always hit. They also need a short targeting distance to be able to fire at the vehicles so people won't stay in their bases and fire at a nearby vehicle. Lastly, they need Los to fire. Also, militia has to stand still to be able to fire Option 1: lower the damage and splash damage, but make the missiles faster, and being able to fire off faster, but having a targeting distance of about 50-75m and a flight distance of about 150-175 OR Option 2: keep the damage, speed, make the targeting distance 100m, and flight distance 100m. Forge Guns are the other godly AV weapons, and is favored by the accurate over swarms because of it's insane damage output. The Forge gun is just a long range weapon that takes skill to aim, so nerfing it's range is a bad idea. So that leaves the damage. My idea is that the Forge gun gets Mandatory changes: militia forge becomes a breach forge gun, and gets 1400 damage. Also, either the light given off the forge guns give off gets brighter, a dot shows up on the neocom showing where one was fired, or a big smoke trail appears showing where one was fired from. Option 1: 400 less damage for a quarter of a second faster spool time OR Option 2: keeps damage for quarter second longer spool for all. Vehicles after the AV changes will be better, but will be destroyed very fast still. Therefore, two things need to happen: Mandatory changes: Missiles need splash, because they are too inaccurate to hit anything, and the splash doesn't ever hit as well. Rails need more splash as well. And HAV's need to be able to go over small rocks, and take away the ramming damage caused from people touching (or in greifers cases, ramming). Option 1: Make the eHP on all vehicles way higher, and take 1/3 of all damage off, and increase the RoF on all turrets, as well as the time it takes to overheat the turrets Option 2: Vehicles get slightly more eHP, more speed and more accerlation, and 1/4 damage taken away. Mandatory change for AV and vehicles: Honstly,It costs way less in SP and ISK to skill into these areas it's stupid. So, both need a price drop to make it somewhat easier to get them. Modify my ideas, be seniable with your arguments, and I'll see you on the battlefield vehicles, after the AV balancing
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 73	Posted - 2013.01.03 01:28:00 - [2] - Quote Eh, I think a better solution is just to balance AV. AV Grenades don't require you to give up your main armament, so those need to be toned down in terms of damage. Swarm Launchers don't require you to wear a fatboy suit or have accurate fire, so those need to be toned down in terms of damage as well. Forge guns are fine. I've actually come across quite a few forge gunners as a HAV pilot that didn't really pose a threat. They are slow and inaccurate when firing at a fast target at long range. Swarm launchers, on the other hand, don't require a fatboy suit, making their wielders faster, and can home in on targets, making them almost as powerful as a forge gun against shields, more powerful against armor, and removing the forge gunner's two main disadvantages (lack of speed, and the need for accuracy). I'm going to make an example for the AV grenade. Say you have a mass driver that does similarly, but better, than locus grenades and requires you to give up your main weapon slot. Most would say it's balanced. AV grenades are actually more effective than the forge gun, even if you can only hold three. Grenades should not be more effective than the weapons they substitute for.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.03 05:14:00 - [3] - Quote Quit driving militia grade vehicles and expect them to not suck please. I cannot solo kill any properly kitted and driven vehicle with baseline AV. I have to use tier 3 forge guns to kill gunnlogi with better than crap fits, and it usually means i die a few times chasing them. I wont engage vehicles near infantry, and repair modules fix your stuff. use them. I can spank militia grade vehicles with militia forge and swarms. Not so much on better stuff. By the way do not fit militia anything to a gunnlogi or madrugar, And god help you on a soma/etc. boost your skills to max out your modules rather than running straight for the best vehicle and then expecting it to work fine with militia modules. it can take anywhere up to five people hosing the HAVs down when they are properly kitted and the only thing I can do to them solo is force them to retreat. and I can die a lot. I only kill the dumb ones solo. No nerfing AV. making tanks nigh unstoppable means lazy play is rewarded. There's no real reason to allow lazy anything, and the only people I hear this from seem to be under the assumption that Vehicles should crush infantry effortlessly.
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 41	Posted - 2013.01.03 08:50:00 - [4] - Quote I completely agree with Breakin Stuff, I run AV ask most people they'll have seen me and last night I came across Sir Meode one of the best HAV divers about in my opinion. He was running a very well fitted out Gunloggi and a team of 10 yes I said it 10 AV guys couldn't take it out his tactics were perfect using the terrain to only expose his turret when possible and retreating when he took too much damage. I died over 12 times using all of my Proto AV fits just to strip his shields whilst the other lads hit him with advanced swarms. We just got redlined by a single tank and we even had a couple of guys on comms before you say anything about being uncoordinated. So if you are having your HAV blown up a lot something us either wrong with your fit or your tactics a HAV should not be a one man army, even though it may happen at times. And if you were to rebuff missile turrets we would be back at square one with missile tank spamming I agree that they could maybe use a bit more splash damage as it's what they are for long range bombardment. I would also advise against increasing the HP of HAV's as it then becomes nigh on impossible to bring enough firepower to ever get through shields/armour I have come against 5 or 6 full Proto HAV's which I suspect had around 10k shields and hardener modules compared to that Gunnlogi last night which maybe had 6k shields with high end reppers and hardeners both of which are nigh on Impossible to take out without another HAV in open ground. So in short leave it as it is, if a dedicated tanker meets a dedicated AV guy on open ground the AV guy will die but if a new tanker meets a dedicated AV guy in his new militia/basic tank in closed in terrain there is a good chance the tanker will die. It all comes down to skill and experience, I don't have much in HAV but a great deal in AV and there are still lots of guys rolling around like they can solo the whole map in a HAV which makes my job much easier. Regards Snag
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.03 08:56:00 - [5] - Quote after agreeing fully with snag, in closing. Keep driving stupid. i like free kills when people do that. Stupidity should be punished harshly, not protected.
WHz DS9899 Doomheim 136	Posted - 2013.01.04 00:42:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Quit driving militia grade vehicles and expect them to not suck please. I cannot solo kill any properly kitted and driven vehicle with baseline AV. I have to use tier 3 forge guns to kill gunnlogi with better than crap fits, and it usually means i die a few times chasing them. I wont engage vehicles near infantry, and repair modules fix your stuff. use them. I can spank militia grade vehicles with militia forge and swarms. Not so much on better stuff. By the way do not fit militia anything to a gunnlogi or madrugar, And god help you on a soma/etc. boost your skills to max out your modules rather than running straight for the best vehicle and then expecting it to work fine with militia modules. it can take anywhere up to five people hosing the HAVs down when they are properly kitted and the only thing I can do to them solo is force them to retreat. and I can die a lot. I only kill the dumb ones solo. No nerfing AV. making tanks nigh unstoppable means lazy play is rewarded. There's no real reason to allow lazy anything, and the only people I hear this from seem to be under the assumption that Vehicles should crush infantry effortlessly. So a madrugar can get 9k eHP on militia mods? I'll have to try that.... Anyways, I've destroyed several Sagaris' and Sruya's solo with militia forge AV fitting. If you can't god help you. Actually, if you cqn't snipe a HAV with one, you need to change professions. And what do you mean use the repair mods? If you can't tell, any AV weapon outdamages them, and they only last 10 seconds. Recharge for them is 30 seconds, and those 30 seconds your being. Bombed by everything becuase most people don't think about trying to get the AV guys first. Try again scrub.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 435	Posted - 2013.01.04 02:55:00 - [7] - Quote WHz DS9899 wrote: Mandatory changes- they need to not be able to bend around big structures so they won't always hit. They also need a short targeting distance to be able to fire at the vehicles so people won't stay in their bases and fire at a nearby vehicle. Lastly, they need Los to fire. Also, militia has to stand still to be able to fire Option 1: lower the damage and splash damage, but make the missiles faster, and being able to fire off faster, but having a targeting distance of about 50-75m and a flight distance of about 150-175 OR Option 2: keep the damage, speed, make the targeting distance 100m, and flight distance 100m. I don't use anything but Militia Swarms, but I've flown enough DS to say that they are well balanced in this build. You can see them a mile away, outrun them easily, etc. You mentioned you're a HAV driver. HAVs are slow and bulky, no wonder a swarm can hit you. But your HAV can take it easily. I am a DS pilot and an LAV driver, so Option 1 completely disrupts the use of variable vane turbines on LAVs and would make DS pilots very angry. It would actually imbalance the Swarms in favor of them because for the lesser protected vehicles that rely on speed and agility, Swarms would become a much worse threat, especially when there are something like 3 Swarm Launchers all honing in on the same DS. Option 2 is a Super nerf hammer to Swarms. An LAV can go up to 40 m/s, so in 2.5 seconds, a Baloch or Onikuma can make Swarms disappear in a flash. Swarms are fine as they are. Sure they are a light weapon, but the user has no control over the Swarm. The vehicle pilot can easily manipulate swarms at a distance to crash. There are also only 6 shots in a Swarm launcher with no Capacity Skills. They are fine.
Godin Thekiller KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 14	Posted - 2013.01.04 06:26:00 - [8] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: WHz DS9899 wrote: Mandatory changes- they need to not be able to bend around big structures so they won't always hit. They also need a short targeting distance to be able to fire at the vehicles so people won't stay in their bases and fire at a nearby vehicle. Lastly, they need Los to fire. Also, militia has to stand still to be able to fire Option 1: lower the damage and splash damage, but make the missiles faster, and being able to fire off faster, but having a targeting distance of about 50-75m and a flight distance of about 150-175 OR Option 2: keep the damage, speed, make the targeting distance 100m, and flight distance 100m. I don't use anything but Militia Swarms, but I've flown enough DS to say that they are well balanced in this build. You can see them a mile away, outrun them easily, etc. You mentioned you're a HAV driver. HAVs are slow and bulky, no wonder a swarm can hit you. But your HAV can take it easily. I am a DS pilot and an LAV driver, so Option 1 completely disrupts the use of variable vane turbines on LAVs and would make DS pilots very angry. It would actually imbalance the Swarms in favor of them because for the lesser protected vehicles that rely on speed and agility, Swarms would become a much worse threat, especially when there are something like 3 Swarm Launchers all honing in on the same DS. Option 2 is a Super nerf hammer to Swarms. An LAV can go up to 40 m/s, so in 2.5 seconds, a Baloch or Onikuma can make ISwarms disappear in a flash. Well if they fixed how DS's fly, then they wouldn't get mad over it. And if a proto swarm hits any LAV, that LAV is going down fast and hard as is now. And you know that means that you got 4 seconds to hit a LAV going at top speed, which you never see unless your on a flat open map. If they tried going top speed all the time, they would crash, and ended up being blown up from by swarms anyways. Think about it for a second. Swarms are fine as they are. Sure they are a light weapon, but the user has no control over the Swarm. The vehicle pilot can easily manipulate swarms at a distance to crash. There are also only 6 shots in a Swarm launcher with no Capacity Skills. They are fine.
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 41	Posted - 2013.01.04 07:49:00 - [9] - Quote Just another thought, it might be an idea to see where CCP go with the next build which will be with us shortly, I'm sure. There might be some radical changes to AV with the Plasma cannon coming in and to balance it I think you may see some tweaks to HAV shields and maybe some re-balancing to the Heavy suit. Also at some stage the Tankers should be getting Autocannons and Artillery which will be heavily balanced in favour of anti infantry tactics, so I fear that when these changes come in you may see a lot of Tank Nerf calls as the vast majority of players are not AV dedicated and when the Missle tanks reigned supreme, everyone called for a nerf as it was the only kind of tank on the field and you could solo a map with it. Obviously now I rarely see them as the Nerfhammer came down hard on them but it does put them back to long-range bombardment where they belong. Out of interest have you seen a type of blaster call (forgive me if I spell it wrong) 80GJ Neutron Blaster. It is a very effective area suppression weapon and I would be interested to find out it's stats, I'm working a lot right now so I haven't been on for a couple of days before you ask me to look myself. I think using normal combined arm tactics a HAV with this type of turret could be very dangerous. I'm also looking into some combined HAV plus AV troop combined tactics to defeat Proto HAVs because they have been damn near impossible to beat when used properly and not even a full mag from my Proto Assault forge has gotten the shields below 1/3 and I have got 2 complex damage mods on this fit plus whatever my skills give me. One idea that I agree with is that maybe AV grenades could be modified as I have been blown up soooo many times by a random lobbing one in my vauge direction when speeding alone in my Saga but rather than nerf the damage maybe reduce range by 10% and get rid of the homing function but have a sticky function instead so you actually have to aim them but they do stick to a vehicle if you hit it, thoughts??? Regards Snag


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