DUST Search - (Feedback) I think the Militia Forge Gun should be removed Or require Forge Gun ...

Cross Atu wrote:

Lavirac JR wrote:

There are 3 reasons why I believe the militia forge gun as implemented now is a terrible idea.

1- This SEVERELY nerfs HAVs, Dropships, and LAVs. Everyone will have a militia suit made with a militia Forge just to pop any HAV that shows up in a match. Swarm Launchers were tough enough on vehicles, now everyone will have access to the highest direct damage dealing weapon in Dust. HAVs, Dropships, and LAVs will become even more limited use (Hell LAVs now are basically just disposable taxis)

2- It nerfs us specialized forge gun users... (yes, my reasoning is a bit selfish too). Corps will have minimal use for players that specialize in forge guns, when they can spam the field with militia users. It costs the most of infantry players to specialize in a Forge Gun SP-wise and the most isk-wise. Smart corps will soon realize, it is better to have a bunch of militia forge gunners on the field that can run other fits (say like Logi, assault, whatever) over a guy who wasted 2 million SP into forge guns. It is not in a corps benefit to recruit a forge gunner who needs a squad backing him up, while others are more able to be self-sufficient and can do his job(even if they are rather mediocre in doing it).

3- They are way too cheap and only require 7 more CPU and 1 more PG over the standard forge gun. Standard Forge Gun, 12,440 Isk, 53 CPU and 5 PG. Militia Forge Gun, 1,520 isk, 60 CPU, and 6 PG. For that price it should be 100 CPU and 15 PG, especially since a militia Heavy suit has 1 less high slot (meaning less modules to compensate for).

So basically I believe they should be removed, or require Forge Gun Operation to use. This weapon is too powerful and imbalancing to let everyone have access too.

I respectfully disagree with your proposed changes, however I generally agree with the problems/shortcomings you identify.
A better fix would be to lightly retouch the vehicle lines to provide a light increase of survivability.

Attention

ETC

0.02 ISK
Cross


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Overlord Ulath Doomheim 85	Posted - 2012.12.31 12:36:00 - [1] - Quote My Saga laughs at your pathetic militia forge guns. 2588 shields/789 armor/11% shield damage reduction. I get hit by those weak excuses for a forge gun all the time and have only lost 2 Sagas to them so far. 1 of which was because I had just taken a swarm and spun out. If a tanker can't deal with all the shields and armor at their disposal, spec into something else.
Overlord Ulath Doomheim 85	Posted - 2013.01.01 08:47:00 - [2] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Lavirac JR wrote: There are 3 reasons why I believe the militia forge gun as implemented now is a terrible idea. 1- This SEVERELY nerfs HAVs, Dropships, and LAVs. Everyone will have a militia suit made with a militia Forge just to pop any HAV that shows up in a match. Swarm Launchers were tough enough on vehicles, now everyone will have access to the highest direct damage dealing weapon in Dust. HAVs, Dropships, and LAVs will become even more limited use (Hell LAVs now are basically just disposable taxis) 2- It nerfs us specialized forge gun users... (yes, my reasoning is a bit selfish too). Corps will have minimal use for players that specialize in forge guns, when they can spam the field with militia users. It costs the most of infantry players to specialize in a Forge Gun SP-wise and the most isk-wise. Smart corps will soon realize, it is better to have a bunch of militia forge gunners on the field that can run other fits (say like Logi, assault, whatever) over a guy who wasted 2 million SP into forge guns. It is not in a corps benefit to recruit a forge gunner who needs a squad backing him up, while others are more able to be self-sufficient and can do his job(even if they are rather mediocre in doing it). 3- They are way too cheap and only require 7 more CPU and 1 more PG over the standard forge gun. Standard Forge Gun, 12,440 Isk, 53 CPU and 5 PG. Militia Forge Gun, 1,520 isk, 60 CPU, and 6 PG. For that price it should be 100 CPU and 15 PG, especially since a militia Heavy suit has 1 less high slot (meaning less modules to compensate for). So basically I believe they should be removed, or require Forge Gun Operation to use. This weapon is too powerful and imbalancing to let everyone have access too. I respectfully disagree with your proposed changes, however I generally agree with the problems/shortcomings you identify. A better fix would be to lightly retouch the vehicle lines to provide a light increase of survivability. ETC 0.02 ISK Cross Dammit Cross, I was trying to be a douche and you had to come in and address the real issue. Not only that, but you wrote so much that I had to edit your beautiful post's length in order to quote it and still have room for my own post... Ah well. If I were to actually give a factual view of it, it wouldn't vary far from what you've wrote here except for the price jump. A forge gunner, especially a new player forge gunner, is going to die a LOT learning how to take out tanks. All forge gunners die regularly while attempting to take out tanks. Their focus is the tank. If they attempt to fight their way to the tank, they are at a severe disadvantage since they are in a crawling lump of a suit with no nimbleness whatsoever and stuck with a sidearm and a weapon that has to charge and is very difficult to us as AI at close range. If you run it on a skinweave or militia heavy (seems to be the fear of every tanker out there all of a sudden) your survivability drops drastically when you could be using a much stronger suit you have skilled into. Even still, I have yet to see a tank beyond a militia fit that has taken less than 4 militia forge shots to kill (I've been testing it a bit). You MIGHT get a dropship in two if it's militia, usually would take three if you put any money into it though, but if you hang around in the air long enough to get shot 3 times by a militia forge gun, that's your own fault for not hauling ass once you got hit the first time. As for tanks, that reduced clip means you have plenty of time to move once you've been hit by the first blast before the fourth round from the new clip can get to you. The purpose of militia gear is to give people an extremely cheap means of using gear without needing to skill into it. This is of course a needed and valuable part of the game, although it also needs to include ALL weapons, turrets and vehicle mods, not just a limited select few from each category. You have to keep in mind that militia gear also allows people to snipe 300,000 ISK dropsuits with a militia sniper rifle or pop them with a militia shotgun. Militia weapons have to be as good as the basic but with drawbacks to balance it out. If it isn't equivelent to a basic, you have no chance of figuring out if the basic is worth skilling into. Militia weapons have always been the same or close to a basic, but with higher CPU/PG and less in a clip with a few other variations. The current forge gun isn't grotesquely deviant from the militia gear pattern laid down by every other militia weapon dropped on us so far, in fact it it is the same method they use for every militia weapon they provide within a range of variations. The drop in the clip size is actually a very large penalty for a forge gun since it has such a small clip to begin with, so they counter balanced this by slightly decreasing the charge time. (I heard that from a corp mate, not certain if the decreased charge time is true or not, but I'll be sure to check later) There will always be people who disagree and insist it's OP for one reason or another, cost or otherwise, but just like with the shotgun and sniper it will eventually pass and be accepted as a regular thing that has to be worked into your in game strategy by the majority of players. Especially since I fully agree with a slight bump to vehicle survivability. HOWEVER, on that part I would only agree to an extent. To the extent that they need more CPU/PG in order to fit better mods for protection. Also, as I said above, militia mods and turrets for ALL types of vehicle mods and turrets (even ones yet to be released) need to be on the market.
Overlord Ulath Doomheim 85	Posted - 2013.01.04 20:47:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DarkShadowFox wrote: If only they went the route of BF3 :P Ahhh Have fun in eve514 guys Dark~ You mean playing obsessively for a week and a half leaving you maxed out in everything? No thank you sir, I would like to have a game that has long-term playability behind it instead of merely the hot thing until the next MAG/COD/Blackops/Halo/insertwhateverhere comes out. If this game is successful, it will garner updates, new weapons, new structures, new dropsuits and a permanently dedicated DEV team who's sole purpose in life is to make the game better and to add yet more ways for us to slaughter each other and kill EVE players. I wait with baited breath for the day someone realizes I'm accepting orbital strike requests from both sides of a groundfight and shooting at everyone with sadistic glee. Edit: and then uses orbital defenses to pop my ship. THEN I will call DUST awesome. Well said. Just wanted to bump this once to give it a chance to garner further debate, I like this thread.
Overlord Ulath Doomheim 85	Posted - 2013.01.05 05:59:00 - [4] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: I have nothing to MForge gun, they could have lower direct and splash dmg. As for Forge gun in general, I would be happy if the wp reward was distributed on the basis of the damage you done to target. Many times when deal 99% of damage to enemy vehicle, all I got was half reward(because some dude with crappy AV weapon finish last 1% of my target). We have talked about this many times before. This kind of thing would have to apply to all AV weapons though. What would have to happen is you gain X amount of WP for dealing Y amount of damage to said vehicle. This would allow AV players who hunt a tank all match and get killed repeatedly with little to no kills to still get rewarded for their contribution to the team. As for reducing damage of forge guns, that would be insane since it's already a pain in the ass to take out a top level tank unless your entire squad are AV players, and if there are 2 or more top level tanks, you pretty much need the whole team to start AV gearing. And that means the ground troops on the enemy team can easily pop you while you are trying to pop the tanks. You nerf the forge gun and tanks will dominate so bad that there will be no point in speccing into anything but tanks and AV.
Overlord Ulath Doomheim 85	Posted - 2013.01.06 02:42:00 - [5] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The whole point of militia grade stuff is that it DOESN'T require skills. Making it require skills would not make sense. If its too powerful, than nerf it, and raise fitting requirements. Fitting req's, sure. Not nerfing the damage. The militia has to stay in step with the basic or it will throw off the whole system they have for militia items. Smaller clip, more req's, same as basic.