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[Request/Suggestion] Making all suits more useful

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Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 69	Posted - 2012.12.25 03:51:00 - [1] - Quote As it currently stands in Dust, the progression of gear goes: Militia < Standard < Advanced < Prototype < Officer I see this as a bad design decision, to be quite honest. I hear endless argument that Militia-Advanced is bad and should be discouraged outside of high sec space. This is also leading to a flattening of the tiers and making advancing further almost pointless and a waste of ISK, as has been argued ad nauseum for all equipment types. The game cannot sustain itself on this model as it will make for a fairly stagnant game. The basics have been worked out, for the most part, and the game itself seems to be running much smoother overall (Yes, there are obviously still a few bugs, but much better than previously). All of this has lead me to believe that the game should be approached on a different tact. Instead of making each tier essentially Prior+1, add specific bonuses to the varying tiers. The following are EXAMPLES ONLY, so don't argue about the stats themselves, but the idea contained herein (And it would get more complicated if varied by race), also, for my sanity, I'm only adding one bonus per suit:
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 69	Posted - 2012.12.25 03:52:00 - [2] - Quote All Militia suits remain unchanged. Scout: Standard, Tech 1 +2% Sprint speed per level of (racial) Scout Suit Standard, Tech 2 +1% Targeting linger (length of time enemy remains on radar for allies) per level of (racial) Scout Suit Advanced, Tech 1 +3% Sensor Range (or Strength) per level of (racial) Scout Suit Advanced, Tech 2 +2% Stamina Mod effectiveness per level of (racial) Scout Suit Prototype +2% Light Weapon (or Sidearm) Range per level of (racial) Scout Suit Assault: Standard, Tech 1 +2% WP Bonus per Kill/Assist per level of (racial) Assault Suit Standard, Tech 2 -1% Shield Recharge Delay per level of (racial) Assault Suit Advanced, Tech 1 +2% Armor Repair rate per level of (racial) Assault Suit Advanced, Tech 2 +1% CPU/PG per level of (racial) Assault Suit Prototype +2% Light Weapon Damage per level of (racial) Assault Suit Heavy: Standard, Tech 1 +2% Heavy Weapon Reload Speed per level of (racial) Heavy Suit Standard, Tech 2 -2% PG cost of Armor mods per level of (racial) Heavy Suit Advanced, Tech 1 +3% External Armor repair per level of (racial) Heavy Suit Advanced, Tech 2 +2% Turn Speed per level of (racial) Heavy Suit Prototype +2% Magazine Capacity per level of (racial) Heavy Suit I don't know where to start with Logi's quite yet. Maybe someone else can help with that. The idea here, however, is to make each level and version of each suit unique and desirable for the benefits provided beyond just pure ISK cost. These, I would imagine, are basic suit benefits, whereas the second (if one were added) would be more uniquely racial. I see this sort of system as more akin to what currently exists in Eve, wherein every ship of every size has some sort of role and benefit it can provide to the individual user, as well as the group as a whole and prevents a great many as being seen as 'trash'. Thoughts, opinions, ideas welcome.
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.12.25 04:39:00 - [3] - Quote I have to disagree with warpoint bonuses on a suit. that will only lead to abuse. Bonuses should be limited to area of expertise or weapons. Example from the one you left out: Logi Milita no bonuses Standard 1% to weapon dmg per level -3% cpu for drop uplinks/nano hives per level Advanced 3% to shield hp per level -5% cpu for drop uplinks/nano hives per level Proto 5% to shield hp per level 5% bonus to remote rep per level
ArMaGeDoN The Cat Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity 157	Posted - 2012.12.25 05:58:00 - [4] - Quote The game economy is built on this idea. I don't think it would fit IMHO.
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 69	Posted - 2012.12.25 12:59:00 - [5] - Quote ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote: The game economy is built on this idea. I don't think it would fit IMHO. There is no economy yet. Not in the same sense as Eve. These changes would allow for an adjustment to bring the game as a whole more in line with Eve in that, when fighting other players you will be able to 'loot' the field. With that in mind, then despite the current, fixed ISK price on dropsuits, there would be far more use and utility out of the various tiers. This would keep a player from feeling as if they got crap, because each tier has unique utility. Further, this would allow PvE to become the more random generator of equipment outside of what individuals are wearing. Or is could simply provide raw materials for an industrial side to the game. Basically, what I am saying is, this game operates in the Eve universe, I believe it should be more in line with Eve itself.
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 69	Posted - 2012.12.25 15:51:00 - [6] - Quote Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: I have to disagree with warpoint bonuses on a suit. that will only lead to abuse. Bonuses should be limited to area of expertise or weapons. I agree that there is certainly a potential for abuse, but it is balanced by the fact that it is a standard suit. Arguably weak and inflexible against say, a proto suit which has greater overall flexibility in their mod slots, as well as more PG/CPU and (were we to stick with the original example above) more dangerous. It provides corps with something different and interesting, as well as makes the suit more viable in later 'stages' of the game. As for your Logi's, I would still say, stick with a singular bonus like so: Logi Milita no bonuses Standard -3% CPU for equipment per level Advanced +4% Armor Repair of Nano Injectors per level Proto +5% bonus to remote rep per level But again, that's arguing details. The question remains, would this sort of system make all ranges of suits more viable in all levels of combat?
ArMaGeDoN The Cat Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity 157	Posted - 2012.12.25 16:08:00 - [7] - Quote Gemini Reynolds wrote: ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote: The game economy is built on this idea. I don't think it would fit IMHO. There is no economy yet. Not in the same sense as Eve. These changes would allow for an adjustment to bring the game as a whole more in line with Eve in that, when fighting other players you will be able to 'loot' the field. With that in mind, then despite the current, fixed ISK price on dropsuits, there would be far more use and utility out of the various tiers. This would keep a player from feeling as if they got crap, because each tier has unique utility. Further, this would allow PvE to become the more random generator of equipment outside of what individuals are wearing. Or is could simply provide raw materials for an industrial side to the game. Basically, what I am saying is, this game operates in the Eve universe, I believe it should be more in line with Eve itself. The devs said themselves that the game is built on the idea that the more you spend, the more likely you will stay alive and kill some baddies. What you suggested kinda eliminiates this.
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 69	Posted - 2012.12.25 16:44:00 - [8] - Quote ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote: The devs said themselves that the game is built on the idea that the more you spend, the more likely you will stay alive and kill some baddies. What you suggested kinda eliminiates this. Not quite. For the most part, the prototypes remain more effective killers without losing the inherent bonus in slots and slot layouts. The survivability of the lower tier suits have not been altered in drastic ways, merely given more options for how to load them out, which in turn gives more reason to consider them in a fight.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2012.12.25 17:29:00 - [9] - Quote Think of bonuses as you would in war craft tier armour from pvp. the higher the tier, the better the bonus. This isn't really a good idea because it forces CCP into a constant "upgrade gear to improve your stats" which is not how we want it. Tier gear should only affect in game actions, and although as you say above they do, it's a very slippery slope I wouldn't want ccp to get into. last time I played warcraft, it had tier 5 gear, and you could see the trend of new armor every year and it would just mean the noobies that entered it would get completely owned. it's not a good model to be on when you aren't doing matchmaking and right now CCP doesn't have / know if they will have the numbers to impliment such a structure.
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 69	Posted - 2012.12.25 17:36:00 - [10] - Quote Captain-Awesome wrote: Think of bonuses as you would in war craft tier armour from pvp. the higher the tier, the better the bonus. This isn't really a good idea because it forces CCP into a constant "upgrade gear to improve your stats" which is not how we want it. Tier gear should only affect in game actions, and although as you say above they do, it's a very slippery slope I wouldn't want ccp to get into. last time I played warcraft, it had tier 5 gear, and you could see the trend of new armor every year and it would just mean the noobies that entered it would get completely owned. it's not a good model to be on when you aren't doing matchmaking and right now CCP doesn't have / know if they will have the numbers to impliment such a structure. Not sure what part you're responding to here, to be honest. The point is more to neuter the WOW-like advancement of tiers and make each one more useful in unique ways. The higher tiers bonuses do not, and should not, overshadow the lower tiers so completely. Otherwise it would negate the point which is to bring more diverse level equipment for more specific roles. Think of them as the ships in Eve. Just because a Battleship has more slots, higher PG/CPU, bigger guns and more Shield/Armor doesn't mean they completely negate the need or desire to have a cheap Frigate in your fleet as well. That is the sort of interaction that I am trying to emulate in design.

Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.12.25 20:17:00 - [11] - Quote Gemini Reynolds wrote: The point is more to neuter the WOW-like advancement of tiers and make each one more useful in unique ways. The higher tiers bonuses do not, and should not, overshadow the lower tiers so completely. Otherwise it would negate the point which is to bring more diverse level equipment for more specific roles. Think of them as the ships in Eve. Just because a Battleship has more slots, higher PG/CPU, bigger guns and more Shield/Armor doesn't mean they completely negate the need or desire to have a cheap Frigate in your fleet as well. That is the sort of interaction that I am trying to emulate in design. Your argument is invalid. You are confusing Dust514 vs EVE inappropriately and ignoring the existing setup of Dust514. In Dust514 think of ALL dropsuits as "frigates". Perhaps LAV=cruisers etc. There is differentiation already amongst those dropsuits/frigates via Scout, Assault, Heavy etc There is differentiation via "meta level" ie Assault Type II vs Assault B-Series. There is differentiation within the meta-level ie Assault B-Series (shield tanking) vs Assault A-Series (armor tanking). There is further differentiation within the suit types and meta-levels in the Singularity/Sisi market data. EDIT: Also you completely ignore and or undermine the need for using ISK and SkillPoints to attain higher meta level gear.
S Park Finner BetaMax. 89	Posted - 2012.12.26 01:49:00 - [12] - Quote I like both Heinz and Gemini's ideas but I think there needs to be a unifying principle behind the specialized suits. I suggest suit alternatives that support different play styles within the category each suit represents. Example using logi... Logi vehicle support variant: bonus to modules that repair vehicles GÇô reduce PG / CPU need for the modules, increase the capabilities of the modules when slotted into the logi suit. Logi medic variant: bonus to nano injectors effectiveness, decreased scan radius, increased sprint speed, increased drop suit armor repair rates, max two equipment slots, lower PG / CPU than base suit but enough to run the appropriate modules. You get the idea. Just as the various major suit types are geared to a roll GÇô assault, logistics, heavy, recon GÇô within each type specialized suits for particular sub-rolls that make them more effective in that roll but less flexible overall. It would be good to include a suit that had increased flexibility but was unable to match any one of the specialized variants.


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