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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
302
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Posted - 2012.12.24 06:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been building up The Southern Legion's 'Official Doctrines' lately, and found the fact that we have 4 man squads, with vehicles based around 6 or 7 man Squads, to be a major disruption to organizing proper military-stykle squads / teams.
4 Man 'Squad' With the Largest Vehicle able to Carry 7 (Pilot and Gunners Included) and the smallest Designed for 3.
4 Man Squad doesn't fit entirely into a 3man LAV, or HAV, and has 3 excess seats in a Dropship... which of course isn't enough to fit another 4 Man Squad.
This... request, is to make these 'Squads' Larger AND make the vehicles suit at least by number, to carry every squad member without any 'wasted' space.
1 LAV / HAV = 3 Man Transport
2 LAV / HAV = 6 Man Transport
3 LAV / HAV = 9 Man Transport
1 Dropship = 7 Man Transport
The numbers simply don't match up when it comes to getting the correct efficiency on transport and combat ability.
What I propose is this.
Squad Size increased to 12.
Dropships have 1 Seat removed, and another set to Co-Pilot (Similar to Passenger in LAV situated BEHIND the pilot), and the 2 Gunners in back, and 2 Transported Squad-Members. This way, with 2 Dropships, you can transport an entire Squad.
LAVs and HAVs can stay the same, as 4 of either can transport an Entire Squad.
Later, with Gunships, 1 Pilot and 1 Co-Pilot, and APCs could be modelled on Dropships.
Having Aircraft, or Ground craft that don't 'fit' the numbers one way or another, doesn't make sense, nor is it efficient. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
302
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Posted - 2012.12.25 13:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adding to the above suggestion.
The reasoning behind most of what I have said here is that this game is designed as a 'Team' Based game. Keyword is 'Team'. If you cannot easily transport your 'team' without ineffectively brining in a sinlge vehicles for them, or other solution that is equally wasteful, then you cannot fully utilize your squad as one will always be left behind, or forced to 'Bonnet Surf' on an LAV or HAV.
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
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Posted - 2012.12.25 14:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
I want to see a 4man tank
Driver and 3 gunners much more tank in general, shield version 6high/4low armor reversed, PG/CPU increase, HAV 5 Caldari lvl 4/5
At least a current squad would be able to fit in it
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
155
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Posted - 2012.12.25 15:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
However, those left out could be logis who repair your vehicles from damage. Although this may not be the case for dropships. Leaving a squad member on the ground or 'behind' might have benefits though. Taking your whole squad into what could potentially be a trap might be a bad, bad idea, not to mention a big waste of ISK.
If enemies catch on to the fact that you're transporting every single squad member around in a convoy or a couple of dropships, out come the AV weapons. They don't exactly have to worry about a sniper picking them off as they lock on, or a logi ready to repair hull damage, or a heavy or assault flanking as they focus on the HAV rolling down the street, because hey, your whole squad is packaged neatly inside that said HAV, ready to burst open in pieces for a nice Christmas present of warpoints and merc limbs. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
302
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Posted - 2012.12.30 02:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:However, those left out could be logis who repair your vehicles from damage. Although this may not be the case for dropships. Leaving a squad member on the ground or 'behind' might have benefits though. Taking your whole squad into what could potentially be a trap might be a bad, bad idea, not to mention a big waste of ISK.
If enemies catch on to the fact that you're transporting every single squad member around in a convoy or a couple of dropships, out come the AV weapons. They don't exactly have to worry about a sniper picking them off as they lock on, or a logi ready to repair hull damage, or a heavy or assault flanking as they focus on the HAV rolling down the street, because hey, your whole squad is packaged neatly inside that said HAV, ready to burst open in pieces for a nice Christmas present of warpoints and merc limbs.
But Squads are generally stronger together, and the idea behind 12 man squads is that you cannot carry your 'entire' squad in a single vehicle.
With Dropship changes (suggested in top post), you'd still require 2, and for other vehicles, you're going to require 4 of them to carry your entire Squad.
In a 'TEAM' based game... you should be able to roll with your team.
Note: Leaving said 'logi' out of the tank to repair is all well and good, until the Tank has to move faster than the logi can move... sacrificing either it's speed, or ability to maneouvre in favor of a small amount of healing. |
Chilled Pill
Pro Hic Immortalis
RISE of LEGION
26
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Posted - 2012.12.30 03:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
With 12 to a squad, they'll need to change the amount of WP (war points) you need to get a Precision/Orbital Strike -- require at least 3 times the current amount. Otherwise, those strikes will come in relatively quick successions, since 12 clones are contributing to the WP pool.
On the other side, when you can't field a big enough squad, you're squad will probably never accrue enough WP to call even 1 strike in.
Just some thoughts regarding bigger squads. I dunno if this has been brought up before.
Regarding vehicle seating capacity, you guys might be on to something there. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
302
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 03:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
With a quick revision, I've come up with even more ways this would work with people's styles.
Ground Vehicles
- Quad Bike (Hover Bike) - 1 Man Transport Craft. Designed to get around the Map quickly alone.
Good for the Solo Soldier.
- MTAC - 1 Man Combat Assault Mech. Pretty self-explanatory.
- Jeep - Pretty much the current LAV. 3 Man 4WD Vehicle.
- Infantry Carrier Vehicle - Armored Personnel Carrier, designed to carry half a 'squad' (6 people) with a driver and 2 Gunners (positioned on top of the hull). Heavbily armored, but lacking firepower in comparison to a HAV. Advanced model can have a built-in CRU that spawns people around the ICV when it's in 'Deployed' Mode. (Making it tougher to destroy, but weakening it's turrets.)
- Heavy Attack Vehicle - 4 Man Armored Tank, carrying heavy firepower with 1 Driver, 1 Main Gunner, and 2 Secondary Gunners.
Air Vehicles
- Fighter / Bomber - 1 Man Aerial Attack Craft, designed for rapid air interception and combat maneouvres.
- Gunship - 2 Man Aerial Attack Craft with second 'Gunner' Seat controlling a Ground Attack Turret.
- Dropship - 6 Man Aerial Transport / Support Craft. Pilot and Co-Pilot, with 2 Gunner, and 2 Passengers who are able to fire out of the Passenger doors when they are open. (Light / Sidearms Only)
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Moonracer2000
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
316
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Posted - 2012.12.30 04:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
The main problem I see with this is the larger sizes would have to be limited to corp matches. A four player squad can already dominate a public match pretty easily. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
302
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 08:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'd agree with the limit on public matches. Perhaps make the 6-man 'squad' the norm for pub matches. Not sure. However it's pretty clear that 'Squads' in this game at the moment don't line up well with the vehicle choices. The above list I posted, I hope, would be looked at as an alternative line-up of vehicles and numbers with the increase in Squad size to facilitate a team-based, fun, and friendly battle.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
302
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Posted - 2012.12.31 14:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Also, on a note, the 'Free' LAV which alot of people are complaining about being run over by etc. could be replaced with a 'Free' Quad-bike. Single man, used for personal transport only, and highly disposable (if you don't want to invest points in vehicles).
Also have a built-in 'Aquisition Timer' I guess you could call it... A time after requesting a vehicle that 'locks' that type of vehicle for a set duration (ie. if you recently cvalled in a HAV, you wouldn't be able to call in another for say 15 minutes. Making vehicle spam less likely, and also introducing a skill-set that reduces the Aqusition Timer for each individual type of Vehicle, (HAV Aquisition / ATV Aquisition)
Thankyou for looking. |
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Free Beers
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
1043
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Posted - 2012.12.31 17:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
6 man squads are fine and will work for pub and corp battles. At the current performance level i can't see dust having bigger then 24v24 district battles. maybe 32 v 32 in the long run but ccp said its a tatical game not a zerg shooter. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
970
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 20:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
A four passenger dropship would be worthless as a transport vehicle. It's supposed to be the equivalent of today's transport helicopters which can easily carry a dozen infantry. I could post links to dozens of comments along the lines of "Dropships aren't gunships, the are for transport!" back when they were raining down missiles. Ok, missiles got nerfed and they are no longer gunships. Don't nerf their transport role before they even get started!
Bump it up to a minimum of eight passengers instead. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
302
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 10:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Skihids wrote:A four passenger dropship would be worthless as a transport vehicle. It's supposed to be the equivalent of today's transport helicopters which can easily carry a dozen infantry. I could post links to dozens of comments along the lines of "Dropships aren't gunships, the are for transport!" back when they were raining down missiles. Ok, missiles got nerfed and they are no longer gunships. Don't nerf their transport role before they even get started!
Bump it up to a minimum of eight passengers instead.
I agree that if it was solely given the role of a Transport Aircraft, or Utility Helicopter such as the UH-60 Blackhawk, The passenger count should be bumped up to a 'FULL' Squad of 12 people (Inclusive of the Pilot)
The 8 Man passenger fit, would again, introduce the initial failure of the 'Vehicle suiting the Squad'. 8 Man 'Squads' exist in the current metagame, which doesn't have a good variance for any other in-game vehicle.
I always assumed the Dropship was supposed to be like the Blackhawk Helicopter. Capable of Troop transport and Air Support. A role that has either been favored in some builds, and totally disregarded in others.
Looking at it, the Dropship can only carry 6 at the moment in the passenger bay + equipment, that is inclusive of the 2 Gunners. These positions are 'locked' as you can switch between points, but cannot roam freely around the interior of the Dropship.
On observation, the Dropship looks like a 'fast insertion craft' deisgned for sinlge squad insertions. The better way to handle the situation (in addition to my above suggestions) would be to introduced a Heavy Troop Carrier air transport. Capable of Carrying the full 12 Soldiers (Pilots and Gunners included.) |
I-Shayz-I
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
172
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Posted - 2013.01.02 11:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
There should be a skill associated with the squad size. If there was I'd put all my skillpoints into it because of how much I enjoy being squad leader. |
SickJ
French unchained corporation
48
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Posted - 2013.01.02 21:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
HAVs: instead of 1 large turret and 2 small turrets, there could be one that just has 6-8 small turrets.
EDIT: +1 for 4-seater LAV |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2013.01.02 21:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:I want to see a 4man tank
Driver and 3 gunners much more tank in general, shield version 6high/4low armor reversed, PG/CPU increase, HAV 5 Caldari lvl 4/5
At least a current squad would be able to fit in it
I couldn't agree more, but try getting that one past the people who currently top matches with the one-man tanks we have now.
I actually had an idea for this, though.
In earlier wars, tanks didn't really fight tanks. Killing tanks was the job of Tank Destroyers.
What I suggest is that Dust follow a similar model. Make an MAV and have that be a 2-3 man Tank (driver, gunner, small turret gunner), and then buff the HAVs defensive stats back up to E3 level and set them up as a Tank Destroyer. |
theschizogenious
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
167
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 22:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Free Beers wrote:6 man squads are fine and will work for pub and corp battles. At the current performance level i can't see dust having bigger then 24v24 district battles. maybe 32 v 32 in the long run but ccp said its a tatical game not a zerg shooter.
a decent while ago ccp said that they had already successfully tested 64v64 matches obviously this would be way to much for the maps were playing on and with the current player sizes and grouping capabilities but when we get to district conquest with there HUGE maps that are some thing like 3km squared then the larger player sizes will be more useful as the objectives will be more spread out.
edit: oh and i want 4 man lav variants where there isnt a turret or something |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
302
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 09:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
theschizogenious wrote:Free Beers wrote:6 man squads are fine and will work for pub and corp battles. At the current performance level i can't see dust having bigger then 24v24 district battles. maybe 32 v 32 in the long run but ccp said its a tatical game not a zerg shooter. a decent while ago ccp said that they had already successfully tested 64v64 matches obviously this would be way to much for the maps were playing on and with the current player sizes and grouping capabilities but when we get to district conquest with there HUGE maps that are some thing like 3km squared then the larger player sizes will be more useful as the objectives will be more spread out. edit: oh and i want 4 man lav variants where there isnt a turret or something
And ar 64 v 64 (or hopefully 128 vs. 128 in the future) a larger squad format, and vehicular transport that made more sense would be much much much more desirable.
Noting, also, that the DISTRICT maps are actually supposed to be 25 x 25 km squared in area... more than enough to support 64 v 64, or even 128 v 128 |
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