DUST Search - [Opinion] Skirmish is wildly unbalanced

Tiel Syysch wrote:

Gunner Visari wrote:

Tiel Syysch wrote:

From what I've read, people seem to think this map favors the south, while I've noticed the complete opposite.

North spawn distances to objectives are roughly 200, 280, and 400m.
South spawn distances to objectives are roughly 360, 400, and 500m. They also have to go around the mountain from the MCC spawn, making those distances larger.
Just look at the map and it's pretty obvious there's a discrepancy. The red MCC to A/C is pretty dumb compared to blue to B.

North spawn also has a number of mountain sniping locations that can see into pretty much every area around the objectives.

While I like how this map looks, how it plays has never been good in my experience. If the north team is competent, they capture all objectives as the other team is getting to their closest one, and from there, it's just not fun to play on either side really.

While i agree with this post i think the general reasoning behind this is the blue side has all the elevation so that make it a bit more defensible if they can cap B fast enough. The buildings around B and all the elevation from B to A can be a great way to keep A at bay while the mountains adjacent can keep C at bay while there is direct LOS from B-C with elevation slighlty favoring C.

This is in theory thats how it should work but you are correct in that against evenly matched teams i seem to redline if im on the Red MCC side.

Edit-Now with that said i think for a coordinated team if a scout with hacked uplink hauled to B and the entire team spawned on it then it could use that elevation to their advantage quicker. Or if the spawns were closer to B. As it is it just the fact not everyone spawn on ground and rushes B first to create the critical mass to use the elevation advantage.

I think the red team actually has the elevation advantage through the hills on 3B and 3D. That seems to be where the snipers go from the times I've played this map, and they pretty much are able to shoot into all the objectives from those 2 hills. Blue has some elevation near their spawn, but it's not as controlling as red's.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.20 20:15:00 - [1] - Quote From what I've read, people seem to think this map favors the south, while I've noticed the complete opposite. North spawn distances to objectives are roughly 200, 280, and 400m. South spawn distances to objectives are roughly 360, 400, and 500m. They also have to go around the mountain from the MCC spawn, making those distances larger. Just look at the map and it's pretty obvious there's a discrepancy. The red MCC to A/C is pretty dumb compared to blue to B. North spawn also has a number of mountain sniping locations that can see into pretty much every area around the objectives. While I like how this map looks, how it plays has never been good in my experience. If the north team is competent, they capture all objectives as the other team is getting to their closest one, and from there, it's just not fun to play on either side really.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2012.12.20 21:04:00 - [2] - Quote Agreed. If nothing else they need to move the south MCC up to where it was on the old Manus Peak map, and the other main spawn up to the area around the turret southeast of B. The north side would still be able to get A and C without much trouble, but the south side can at least get B and set up some defences before the north team gets there. At the moment their lucky to even get a couple of guys near B before the north team.
Yagihige Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 172	Posted - 2012.12.21 11:41:00 - [3] - Quote The red MCC is in the worst place ever. It has no cover whatsoever and can be camped by tanks easily.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2012.12.24 21:50:00 - [4] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: From what I've read, people seem to think this map favors the south, while I've noticed the complete opposite. North spawn distances to objectives are roughly 200, 280, and 400m. South spawn distances to objectives are roughly 360, 400, and 500m. They also have to go around the mountain from the MCC spawn, making those distances larger. Just look at the map and it's pretty obvious there's a discrepancy. The red MCC to A/C is pretty dumb compared to blue to B. North spawn also has a number of mountain sniping locations that can see into pretty much every area around the objectives. While I like how this map looks, how it plays has never been good in my experience. If the north team is competent, they capture all objectives as the other team is getting to their closest one, and from there, it's just not fun to play on either side really. While i agree with this post i think the general reasoning behind this is the blue side has all the elevation so that make it a bit more defensible if they can cap B fast enough. The buildings around B and all the elevation from B to A can be a great way to keep A at bay while the mountains adjacent can keep C at bay while there is direct LOS from B-C with elevation slighlty favoring C. This is in theory thats how it should work but you are correct in that against evenly matched teams i seem to redline if im on the Red MCC side. Edit-Now with that said i think for a coordinated team if a scout with hacked uplink hauled to B and the entire team spawned on it then it could use that elevation to their advantage quicker. Or if the spawns were closer to B. As it is it just the fact not everyone spawn on ground and rushes B first to create the critical mass to use the elevation advantage.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.12.24 22:10:00 - [5] - Quote I never once heard of the south team winning on this version of a manus peak skirmish. Even with more "corp power" (several corps fighting one corp and randoms) or even corps with giant stacks of ISK (such as the imperfects sending in a bunch of HAVs) Even with those advantages, the south still can't win.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.25 03:45:00 - [6] - Quote Gunner Visari wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: From what I've read, people seem to think this map favors the south, while I've noticed the complete opposite. North spawn distances to objectives are roughly 200, 280, and 400m. South spawn distances to objectives are roughly 360, 400, and 500m. They also have to go around the mountain from the MCC spawn, making those distances larger. Just look at the map and it's pretty obvious there's a discrepancy. The red MCC to A/C is pretty dumb compared to blue to B. North spawn also has a number of mountain sniping locations that can see into pretty much every area around the objectives. While I like how this map looks, how it plays has never been good in my experience. If the north team is competent, they capture all objectives as the other team is getting to their closest one, and from there, it's just not fun to play on either side really. While i agree with this post i think the general reasoning behind this is the blue side has all the elevation so that make it a bit more defensible if they can cap B fast enough. The buildings around B and all the elevation from B to A can be a great way to keep A at bay while the mountains adjacent can keep C at bay while there is direct LOS from B-C with elevation slighlty favoring C. This is in theory thats how it should work but you are correct in that against evenly matched teams i seem to redline if im on the Red MCC side. Edit-Now with that said i think for a coordinated team if a scout with hacked uplink hauled to B and the entire team spawned on it then it could use that elevation to their advantage quicker. Or if the spawns were closer to B. As it is it just the fact not everyone spawn on ground and rushes B first to create the critical mass to use the elevation advantage. I think the red team actually has the elevation advantage through the hills on 3B and 3D. That seems to be where the snipers go from the times I've played this map, and they pretty much are able to shoot into all the objectives from those 2 hills. Blue has some elevation near their spawn, but it's not as controlling as red's.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2012.12.25 03:56:00 - [7] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: Gunner Visari wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: From what I've read, people seem to think this map favors the south, while I've noticed the complete opposite. North spawn distances to objectives are roughly 200, 280, and 400m. South spawn distances to objectives are roughly 360, 400, and 500m. They also have to go around the mountain from the MCC spawn, making those distances larger. Just look at the map and it's pretty obvious there's a discrepancy. The red MCC to A/C is pretty dumb compared to blue to B. North spawn also has a number of mountain sniping locations that can see into pretty much every area around the objectives. While I like how this map looks, how it plays has never been good in my experience. If the north team is competent, they capture all objectives as the other team is getting to their closest one, and from there, it's just not fun to play on either side really. While i agree with this post i think the general reasoning behind this is the blue side has all the elevation so that make it a bit more defensible if they can cap B fast enough. The buildings around B and all the elevation from B to A can be a great way to keep A at bay while the mountains adjacent can keep C at bay while there is direct LOS from B-C with elevation slighlty favoring C. This is in theory thats how it should work but you are correct in that against evenly matched teams i seem to redline if im on the Red MCC side. Edit-Now with that said i think for a coordinated team if a scout with hacked uplink hauled to B and the entire team spawned on it then it could use that elevation to their advantage quicker. Or if the spawns were closer to B. As it is it just the fact not everyone spawn on ground and rushes B first to create the critical mass to use the elevation advantage. I think the red team actually has the elevation advantage through the hills on 3B and 3D. That seems to be where the snipers go from the times I've played this map, and they pretty much are able to shoot into all the objectives from those 2 hills. Blue has some elevation near their spawn, but it's not as controlling as red's. you're right i just played it. From C to B there is a definite elevation advantage for C, what make it worse is when you get the particular random structure where all it is is parking garage with the CRU and OBjective sepearated by a few trucks both spawn are right out in the open making an all out zerg attack from C impossible to stop, two laser an MD and you are screwed, when you get some other structures then defending B becomes a bit more viable especially when you get the multi-story buildings because it gives some elevation back to B side. Also that particular design has the CRU and Obj B fairly separated from each other and they are both covered from view at C. C random structures go from cool to obscene if you are on the south spawn team some are just buried underground while others are up a flight of stairs. Objective C is definitely the pivotal point most matches and it is definitely easier to cap from North side for sure. But i think with the right structuring in place at B, making it an almost virtual stronghold would balance out the map a bit, as most of the action is centered around C and B, making A the objective that could be contested heavily with North having the distance advantage and South having the elevation advantage.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.12.28 21:04:00 - [8] - Quote Yesterday I was part of the impossible- winning on the south side! Ofc, it took good coordination and a pair of railgun tanks on literally the peak (not sure how tanks got up there when I can't find a way on foot as a scout) Now that I've played more and more games on the south spawn, I figured it's also a very good WP farm, since the north never bothers to guard A. I went 0/3, but ended on the top of my team WP wise with 675 WP completely from repeatedly taking A, and from a good amount of team spawns from my uplink position. The other team never figured out how I got to A or where I kept setting up uplinks.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1590	Posted - 2013.01.03 00:36:00 - [9] - Quote A well placed uplink on the top-right quadrant of 3F provides a very good cover for friendly spawns and take the C objective very easily. I kept putting my uplink there every time but I'm surprised nobody or very little players use it. As a ninja knifer traversing through the mountains looking for every nook and cranny to take advantage of, it is extremely easy for a good squad to sneak in a drop uplink even from the South while people are distracted and then using the mountain along the left half of 3E as cover to sneak in. If attacking from the North, an uplink on that same location in 3F provides a clear path to 3F to 5F since there is very little to almost no traffic. Also, I discovered recently that even snipers perched on the bottom-right quadrant of 5F can easily be killed by my nova knife so long as I run fast enough. If I can reach them with my advanced suit fitted with enhanced catalyzers, then a proto scout with complex catalyzers can get in just easily. ============ TL:DR verion ============ 3E and 3F are perfect both the defenders and the attackers. The only exception is that the attackers need a distraction to place the drop uplink safely there. The North can go in easily there but there is a part of the mountain that exposes the player to sniper fire for about 100m.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1590	Posted - 2013.01.03 06:09:00 - [10] - Quote The defending MCC located on the left half of 3C is too close to the front lines in my opinion and it lacks cover. I can easily reach into their drop-in area and pick them off as they land and still get out of the red zone in time.

Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.01.03 20:32:00 - [11] - Quote South Team has more starting cover, they are harder to attack when redlined. North team however, is very minimal in cover, you can shoot them in their own redline from across the map with a sniper. Also, I've been on the South team and won more than enough. When you figure in the tactical advantages/disadvantages with comparison to geographical advantages, I'd say they can even out a bit. Objective A is pretty hard to defend Objective C is lukewarm Objective B is relatively easy to defend with a decent force. Those were just some things I've noticed. Not necessarily true, but what I've noticed.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.01.03 22:29:00 - [12] - Quote Objective A is easy to defend- the beauty of it though is that nobody ever watches it unless a mob heads there.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1590	Posted - 2013.01.03 22:47:00 - [13] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Objective A is easy to defend- the beauty of it though is that nobody ever watches it unless a mob heads there. That's because players are naturally inclined to spawn as close to the enemy front lines as possible because that is where the action is. They don't bother spawning near the back let alone think about defending it.
Belzeebub Santana SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 409	Posted - 2013.01.08 01:34:00 - [14] - Quote Well if you look at this as a real defend and attack map then it seems balanced. The Attacking team is further from objectives but have a safer spawn area, giving them the ability to coordinate better and a little hieght advantage. Where the Defending team is close to objectives, letting them get a foothold but a little more valnurable if pushed back. Once these games have a progression to them I think we will want them a little off setting, giving benefits and disadvantages to each team.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.01.12 23:23:00 - [15] - Quote I found that the key to winning here to to hold C, keep all the installations there intact, and have someone manning the railgun there frequently. C controls the movement between A and B. The north spawn is at somewhat of a disadvantage against a smart team because it's exposed (I shot down many vehicles with the railgun as they were called in, while picking off the people calling them), but the easier access to NULL cannons makes up for this. Very good map IMO.
Deluxe Edition Like a Boss. 56	Posted - 2013.03.18 04:05:00 - [16] - Quote 1) North spawns closer to objectives. 2) North Spawns with massive high ground advantage, with direct access to the highest sniper/AV vantage points. 3) North spawn with far more cover with towering buildings with ladders, with the low ground south receiving almost no cover at all. 4) North gets access to a supply depot and CRU at natural objective where as south gets nothing. Any of these imbalances would make the map hard to win for anyone in the south, when taken together it makes the match virtually impossible.

CCP LogicLoop Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2013.03.18 06:24:00 - [17] - Quote Hey Mercs, Just wanted you to know this topic has been talked about here. Feel free to comment about it there. And thank you for your input.



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