DUST Search - Shotgun VS. Heavy

THUNDERGROOVE wrote:

Okay now before anyone goes nerd rage mode "HURRR OMG SHOTGUN IS ALREADY OP" , please hear me out. (And don't forget how crappy this gun is at a long range)

I use a shotgun almost all the time except when I use my logisuit, And it works well in almost every situation except against heavies. Currently, I can use all advanced tier gear be and fire 4 shots, point blank, with damage mods, into a militia heavy. At that point I'm dead because they unloaded their HMG into me.

The shotgun really should excel in wrecking armor and I understand that heavies still should be a 2 or 3 shot, but getting 4 shots in, point blank, with damage mods, and getting only their armor only 2/3rds down is kinda screwy.

I still believe a Advanced heavy against someone using an Advanced assault + shotgun setup should win in 1v1.

Basically what I'm asking is for shotguns to do less damage to shields and WAY more damage to armor. Another place this makes sense is against LAVs. I can unload 16 shots into an LAV and have their armor down only halfway. Oh and don't forget it was point blank. Oh and I had damage mods. Oh and it was the free Militia LAV with nothing special.

Anyways I hope my point was proven. Would love to see some feedback why I am or I'm not correct and possibly some fellow shotgunners will post and give some other pointers on how to balance it!

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THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Legacy Rising 33	Posted - 2012.12.07 20:25:00 - [1] - Quote Okay now before anyone goes nerd rage mode "HURRR OMG SHOTGUN IS ALREADY OP" , please hear me out. (And don't forget how crappy this gun is at a long range) I use a shotgun almost all the time except when I use my logisuit, And it works well in almost every situation except against heavies. Currently, I can use all advanced tier gear be and fire 4 shots, point blank, with damage mods, into a militia heavy. At that point I'm dead because they unloaded their HMG into me. The shotgun really should excel in wrecking armor and I understand that heavies still should be a 2 or 3 shot, but getting 4 shots in, point blank, with damage mods, and getting only their armor only 2/3rds down is kinda screwy. I still believe a Advanced heavy against someone using an Advanced assault + shotgun setup should win in 1v1. Basically what I'm asking is for shotguns to do less damage to shields and WAY more damage to armor. Another place this makes sense is against LAVs. I can unload 16 shots into an LAV and have their armor down only halfway. Oh and don't forget it was point blank. Oh and I had damage mods. Oh and it was the free Militia LAV with nothing special. Anyways I hope my point was proven. Would love to see some feedback why I am or I'm not correct and possibly some fellow shotgunners will post and give some other pointers on how to balance it!
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 385	Posted - 2012.12.07 20:32:00 - [2] - Quote Heavies are nerfed enough without this whine fest
Razrien Arkshatter Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2012.12.07 20:39:00 - [3] - Quote The thing is, you'd 'need' those damage mods to get through a Heavy suit. Or at least, you should. ...thats why its called 'Heavy' They're basically wearing tank armor. You can't just walk up to them and expect to take them down like a regular grunt. Not only do they have all that HP, but then most people who suit up a Heavy have probably added extra plating and have other bonuses stacked on top of that. I know I do. Solution - Use a different weapon. Forge guns cut through all that armor like a fat kid eating chocolate icing.
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Legacy Rising 33	Posted - 2012.12.07 20:40:00 - [4] - Quote Not really, heavies are just like any class except AR. If you wanna be good with it you gotta pay ISK for a decent suit and weapon
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Legacy Rising 33	Posted - 2012.12.07 20:42:00 - [5] - Quote And I'm not necessarily talking about any heavies using good fititngs. I'm talking about suits that cost them ~5,000 ISK or less
Razrien Arkshatter Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2012.12.07 20:43:00 - [6] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Not really, heavies are just like any class except AR. If you wanna be good with it you gotta pay ISK for a decent suit and weapon ....but thats the thing. They're completley different from any other class. Look in your fittings menu. They're slower, much lower sprint endurance, and basically just waddle around on the battlefied. But even the default fitting you get has more HP than any other suit.
DarkShadowFox Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 238	Posted - 2012.12.07 20:48:00 - [7] - Quote Razrien Arkshatter wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Not really, heavies are just like any class except AR. If you wanna be good with it you gotta pay ISK for a decent suit and weapon ....but thats the thing. They're completley different from any other class. Look in your fittings menu. They're slower, much lower sprint endurance, and basically just waddle around on the battlefied. But even the default fitting you get has more HP than any other suit. there liek giant armoured PENGINS 8D
VicBoss Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 135	Posted - 2012.12.07 21:03:00 - [8] - Quote your missing half your shots, because with a advanced shotgun i can always get type II heavies down in 2 to 3 shots, any militia heavy is one shot and they are barely standing.
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Legacy Rising 33	Posted - 2012.12.07 21:07:00 - [9] - Quote I understand how slow and how much armor they have. It's a matter of balance. Please consider the following: Militia Assault class VS. Militia Assault class: We all know this boils down on skill and where one is related to the other *BUT* Advanced Assault class VS. Militia Assault class: Advanced will almost allways win even if the Militia is better at the game or has some sort of advantage. Please note this also takes into account that the Advanced player is almost always going to be more skilled at the game This same theme should follow along with all classes versus all classes(except maybe snipers at a long range) *BUT* As I've pointed out heavies break this theme. Also, please note I'm mostly talking about heavies using HMGs(I don't really have a problem with getting killed by someone using a forge gun) The only real chance a shotgunner has, at any level of fitting, against any heavy is if they are in a group and the heavy doesn't go after the shotgunner or in a 1v1 situation if the shotgunner gets behind the heavy and is able to get 2 or 3 shots in before he can turn around inb4 "step yo game up foo" Anyways, I'm probably too stupid, incompetent or something else(Making fun of myself so you don't have to)
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 285	Posted - 2012.12.07 21:15:00 - [10] - Quote You're taking on heavies at their optimum range, and you're missing with your shotgun. That's all there is to it. The balance is fine, perhaps you've just been unlucky with lag & hit detection.

ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 108	Posted - 2012.12.07 21:23:00 - [11] - Quote Razrien Arkshatter wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Not really, heavies are just like any class except AR. If you wanna be good with it you gotta pay ISK for a decent suit and weapon ....but thats the thing. They're completley different from any other class. Look in your fittings menu. They're slower, much lower sprint endurance, and basically just waddle around on the battlefied. But even the default fitting you get has more HP than any other suit. Well, yeah. They have positives and negatives. They are HEAVYS. Being slow, hard hitting tanks is a given. If your in point blank range with heavy, you came into his optimal range. If he's able to get a bead on you, you should die. If you get the drop on him (and I mean he did not see you coming at all) then you should most likely come out on top. Four shots sounds a bit ridiculous if you've really skilled into shotguns and buffed it's damage, so I have a hard time believing it CONSISTENTLY takes 4 shots to down one. If he's running super awesome expensive meta-level gear, than I could see it, but then it just comes down to you not using super awesome expensive meta-level gear. I'm fairly sure shotguns get headshot bonuses. When a heavy has turned to me and i'm (obviously) close, jumping out of the way and getting that headshot has saved my clone more times than I can count.
epicsting Doomheim 60	Posted - 2012.12.08 04:33:00 - [12] - Quote Ok now I dont know if ya'll have seen me in action as a shotgun scout I use a Malita shotgun and I can get kills left and right even on heavys but it all about the atk and were u hit them.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.12.08 04:39:00 - [13] - Quote Blame the suit not the gun, mate. Scouts got the nerf hatchet and with the strafe speed reduction it's difficult as hell to keep your focus on your target while trying to evade their bullet streams. Heavy is no different. If you can't out strafe a heavy's turn speed with a scout, it's not you - it's the gameplay.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.08 05:40:00 - [14] - Quote Heavy suit vs. Shotgun? You need to use guerrilla tactics. Hit and run. Get out before they can get a good line on you, then hit them again when your shields regen. People keep forgetting the OTHER massive disadvantage to Heavy suits. Regen rate and delay is HORRIBLE. You'll be back to full ARMOUR from a Militia Repper before a Heavy finishes recovering his shields. Rip into them, back off, heal up, then come in from another angle. Or get them to THINK you're going around then return to exactly where they last saw you while they're busy looking the other way.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.12.08 08:32:00 - [15] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Heavy suit vs. Shotgun? You need to use guerrilla tactics. Hit and run. Get out before they can get a good line on you, then hit them again when your shields regen. People keep forgetting the OTHER massive disadvantage to Heavy suits. Regen rate and delay is HORRIBLE. You'll be back to full ARMOUR from a Militia Repper before a Heavy finishes recovering his shields. Rip into them, back off, heal up, then come in from another angle. Or get them to THINK you're going around then return to exactly where they last saw you while they're busy looking the other way. You must be forgetting about the huge wasteland-like expanses between anything even remotely similar to cover in this game.
Talnos Nosslu Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 46	Posted - 2012.12.08 08:41:00 - [16] - Quote It's more or less fine the way it is. Specialize your skills into shotguns and damage mods and step up your game.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.08 08:48:00 - [17] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Heavy suit vs. Shotgun? You need to use guerrilla tactics. Hit and run. Get out before they can get a good line on you, then hit them again when your shields regen. People keep forgetting the OTHER massive disadvantage to Heavy suits. Regen rate and delay is HORRIBLE. You'll be back to full ARMOUR from a Militia Repper before a Heavy finishes recovering his shields. Rip into them, back off, heal up, then come in from another angle. Or get them to THINK you're going around then return to exactly where they last saw you while they're busy looking the other way. You must be forgetting about the huge wasteland-like expanses between anything even remotely similar to cover in this game. Probably because I'm better than you at using (and abusing) the cover that does exist. If you're in CQC with a Heavy and you're using a Shotgun, and there's no cover, you're doing it wrong.
Renato Crusher Bragian Order Amarr Empire 12	Posted - 2012.12.08 09:41:00 - [18] - Quote My interpretation of what the OP said: "Rock: I can break Scissors, but I'm unhappy because even cheap paper is too difficult for me." As someone who prefers playing as a HMG using Heavy, I can tell you it's not a bed of roses being in my position. I routinely die when out-numbered, or fallen victim to a surprise attack, or attacked by someone with a longer ranged weapon when no cover is available. I'm okay with that though, cause DUST wouldn't be much of a game if I could take on every siuation and win. My success in any round depends on me creating favorable situations for myself and avoiding unfavorable situations. This should also be the case for all of the other players too. Can't solo a Heavy in a head-on attack? Then don't try. BTW, my usual fit is the cheapest HMG and militia everything else, including suit. One fitting costs over 10k. I know from personal experience that running a HMG Heavy is one of the most expensive ways to play, not counting vehicles.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.12.08 09:56:00 - [19] - Quote The shot gun shoots the same plasma as a AR, so the damage type should be the same. They are also made by the Gallente, their main enemy is the Caldari with shield tanks. A Minmatar shotgun on the other hand, should be more geared toward taking down Amarr armour. Buckshot sized c4 balls with tiny contact fuses that arm when leaving the barrel would be cool, and justify a explosive damage type shotgun. Fits Minmatar preference for explosive weapons, makes sense in technology, fills anti-armour role, tailored to defeat gear of main enemy in background. So, anybody else want a Minmatar anti-armour shotgun in the future? It could be a low damage per shot rapid fire automatic for the assault variant and fire a slug for the semi-auto Tactical version. The Gallente shotgun is fine as is I think.
7 SHADOW Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2012.12.08 11:16:00 - [20] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: I understand how slow and how much armor they have. It's a matter of balance. Please consider the following: Militia Assault class VS. Militia Assault class: We all know this boils down on skill and where one is related to the other *BUT* Advanced Assault class VS. Militia Assault class: Advanced will almost allways win even if the Militia is better at the game or has some sort of advantage. Please note this also takes into account that the Advanced player is almost always going to be more skilled at the game This same theme should follow along with all classes versus all classes(except maybe snipers at a long range) *BUT* As I've pointed out heavies break this theme. Also, please note I'm mostly talking about heavies using HMGs(I don't really have a problem with getting killed by someone using a forge gun) The only real chance a shotgunner has, at any level of fitting, against any heavy is if they are in a group and the heavy doesn't go after the shotgunner or in a 1v1 situation if the shotgunner gets behind the heavy and is able to get 2 or 3 shots in before he can turn around inb4 "step yo game up foo" Anyways, I'm probably too stupid, incompetent or something else(Making fun of myself so you don't have to) You are saying , "Advanced Assault class VS. Militia Assault class." What you're saying is wrong. In EVE, a T1 Cruiser can down a T2 Cruiser if the T1 does it right and Mr. SP+ISK screws up. However, there are certain circumstances that a certain ship against another certain ship that is gear to deal with the first. He can't win You're facing a combo of this. You're messing up(or the the beta is) and he's equipped to deal with you.

Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.12.12 05:59:00 - [21] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Heavy suit vs. Shotgun? You need to use guerrilla tactics. Hit and run. Get out before they can get a good line on you, then hit them again when your shields regen. People keep forgetting the OTHER massive disadvantage to Heavy suits. Regen rate and delay is HORRIBLE. You'll be back to full ARMOUR from a Militia Repper before a Heavy finishes recovering his shields. Rip into them, back off, heal up, then come in from another angle. Or get them to THINK you're going around then return to exactly where they last saw you while they're busy looking the other way. You must be forgetting about the huge wasteland-like expanses between anything even remotely similar to cover in this game. Probably because I'm better than you at using (and abusing) the cover that does exist. If you're in CQC with a Heavy and you're using a Shotgun, and there's no cover, you're doing it wrong. GÇ£Are we allowing dreams into evidence, now? How am I supposed to defend myself against this kind of testimony?GÇ¥ - Saren
Sylwester Dziewiecki Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.12.12 16:56:00 - [22] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Okay now before anyone goes nerd rage mode "HURRR OMG SHOTGUN IS ALREADY OP" , please hear me out. (And don't forget how crappy this gun is at a long range) I use a shotgun almost all the time except when I use my logisuit, And it works well in almost every situation except against heavies. Currently, I can use all advanced tier gear be and fire 4 shots, point blank, with damage mods, into a militia heavy. At that point I'm dead because they unloaded their HMG into me. The shotgun really should excel in wrecking armor and I understand that heavies still should be a 2 or 3 shot, but getting 4 shots in, point blank, with damage mods, and getting only their armor only 2/3rds down is kinda screwy. I still believe a Advanced heavy against someone using an Advanced assault + shotgun setup should win in 1v1. Basically what I'm asking is for shotguns to do less damage to shields and WAY more damage to armor. Another place this makes sense is against LAVs. I can unload 16 shots into an LAV and have their armor down only halfway. Oh and don't forget it was point blank. Oh and I had damage mods. Oh and it was the free Militia LAV with nothing special. Anyways I hope my point was proven. Would love to see some feedback why I am or I'm not correct and possibly some fellow shotgunners will post and give some other pointers on how to balance it! Breach Shotgun is killing my Heavy Type2 in 2 shots. But it bothers me more that I have not seen yet any one with proto-shotgun.


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