DUST Search - Dust and CSM

Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote:

^^

Look, another well thought out, well informed post who can see that being on the CSM is as i stated a hell of a lot more than just being involved in the minor topics that you're "assigned" to. You have a hand in everything and thus have to know about everything including the EVE mechanics i mentioned above and how they will filter down into Dust.

Anyone who's talking about the CSM is talking way too prematurely for it. IT'S TOO EARLY AND ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER YEAR.

Even if you idiots put yourself forward as CSM candidates on the EVE side in the coming months to try and get around that you're just going to get ridiculed and laughed at.

Patience is what you need if you want to be on the CSM, if you're just going to try and bully your ways into it before the games even released and anyone has a formal interest in it you're just showing that you're only interested in doing it for personal reasons and in a vein attempt to raise yourself above the rest of the community in an attempt to demand respect and appear better than your average Dust player.

That's not how you gain peoples respect.


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Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.29 05:45:00 - [1] - Quote I completely agree with your sentiment here. However, there are a few things to address. First we have to consider that the Eve CSM is elected by players who pay an active subscription to vote and be represented. Dust 514 is a free-to-download-and-play game and thus can be a problem by itself as Dust 514 players may not take real-world company politics seriously. Imagine Dust one day having over 500,000 players like Eve has right now but only 1% of that population actually participate. During the last Eve CSM elections, voter turnout was over 10% which surprisingly was more than the voter turnout of several US states during the 2008 presidential elections between John McCain and Barack Obama. With such a low voter turn out on the part of Dust due to lack of interest, a Dust CSM may not be taken seriously by even us, the players. Of course, the Eve CSM had to undergo the same problem during its early years and people use to see the CSM as nothing more than a gimmick from CCP. Given enough time, a Dust CSM may actually grow to have influence like the Eve CSM does now. A large number of us Dust players are also Eve players. If there is ever to be a Dust exclusive CSM, Dust players may feel infiltrated by the Eve players. A debate use to exist about whether or not to have the Eve CSM represent both Eve and Dust at the same time. Many agreed that this might be more practical as the Eve CSM is already established and has influence at this stage. According to the CSM minutes, the CSM practically has almost the same level of influence as a real-world board of directors for a corporation. If the CSM agrees, they could use their leverage to push CCP to improve Dust further. EDIT: PS: Putting together a Dust CSM during beta may not be a good idea as we don't even have a stable voting system in place like Eve does.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.29 18:17:00 - [2] - Quote This is a very civil conversation we are having here and I am glad to see folks trying to work together on this so that we can benefit from this in the long run. I have an Eve Online account and I remember voting in the recent CSM election in favor of Seleene who ultimately became a member of the CSM who wants to represent the interests of the industrial players of Eve Online. More than 10,000 players (alts excluded) practically voted for The Mittani alone during that same election which later gave him the position of Chairman of the CSM. The events that followed was a clear demonstration of how influential the CSM members have become. CCP has its own separate council that works with the CSM alone with their own Board of Directors that represent the private investors that helped fund CCP from the beginning. It is speculated that CCP might (please note that this is just rumor) file an IPO one day and then become publicly owned. The board of directors would change accordingly like any other publicly owned business. But that doesn't mean the CSM will be gone. The CSM has become such an important part of Eve Online's progress and success that the CSM is now seen as a board of directors for players that cannot be messed with. If anything doesn't go the way they hoped or at least compromised for, they can rally enough players to cripple Eve Online and Dust forever. Kind of like a poison pill policy should greed ever get in the way. Again, the IPO thing is just a rumor based on the recent news of CCP receiving millions of dollars for Dust advertising from a private investment group.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.02 00:16:00 - [3] - Quote Guys, guys, guys, holy ***, no need to throw kitchen sinks at each other here. Let the US Congress waste their time doing that. I understand what both of you are getting that. Being that I am an independent Dust 514 merc since the Replication build and an independent Eve Online capsuleer since 2007 onwards, I would like to chip in my two ISK. Perhaps I can provide feedback here that can at least be used to find common ground. First off the Eve CSM already has a level of influence and trust that had to be earned and slowly established since its inception 6-7 years ago. It didn't become fully powerful in one year. As I mentioned earlier, the CSM once use to be viewed as nothing more than a PR gimmick to even the capsuleers by CCP. But after several recent and successful expansions that saw little to almost no issues and to the satisfaction of the players, the CSM has finally earned the respect of the players. The CSM is no longer a PR stunt but an equivalent to a board of directors. That kind of recognition took a long time to get in a game that has 9 years under its belt, a thriving economy, influential power blocs, balanced mechanics, and a player base numbering in the hundreds of thousands. When we compare Dust to Eve from that perspective, we are barely learning how to walk as mercs. We are too busy bickering amongst each other like kids over something as stupid as 'sniper rifles being OP' etc. and we don't even have anywhere close to 10,000 players. That and fact we don't even have an established voting system other than a forum post and a 'like' button. What hope as mercs do we have in having our own CSM at this stage of development? One of you is right when you say that the Eve CSM members all talk about various topics outside what each member's roles cover. Seleene for example may cover industry or something like that, but he can also talk about other topics like pvp, corp management, null-sec warfare, etc. That kind of knowledge is expected from every member of the CSM. On the other hand, Dust players do need to be represented and have a voice. But starting a separate CSM just for Dust is impractical at this stage of development. Perhaps in a few years when Dust has grown and become more intertwined with New Eden. In the mean time, the best way to go about this is to open up at least three new seats in the council. Seat 1 - Corp management, POS management, industry, market, etc. Seat 2 - Weapons, vehicles, installations, warfare, etc. seat 3 - Everything else. However, each seat should still be responsible for being knowledgeable in all fields of the game so that each can contribute to the overall development of that particular field. If Seat #2 brings up weapons, then Seats #1 and #3 are expected to pitch in as well so that one seat cannot have more influence than the other. Sort of like a check and balance. Of course, those three seats are also expected to be knowledgeable of Eve Online and its complexities so that any ideas or suggestions being brought account for what goes on in Eve. In addition to that, Eve-side members should take the time to inform themselves the same way for Dust so that they know which idea they have is either good, bad, or a compromise. This way, both sides would be able to interact without negatively affecting the development of both games in New Eden. The reason I picked three seats instead of one or two is because one or two seats may not be enough to give Dust 514 players enough of a voice in the CSM. But at the same time, I'm trying to be careful not to ask for too many seats lest CCP ends up spending too much money on plane tickets and hotel reservations. CCP is a small company as we all know based in a tiny island nation in the middle of the North Atlantic. My suggestion is meant to be a compromise between Eve Online and Dust 514 so that one day Dust and Eve players will become so interconnected that a General CSM may be all that we need to represent both sides. Gentleman, what we have here is the blueprint for a bi-chamber CSM only without the bickering and gridlock of the US Congress or Parliament. Let's also not forget that Dust members of the CSM have to earn the respect they seek. It would not be fair for newly elected Dust members of the CSM to have full-blown privileges on day one when the the Eve side members had to slowly gain theirs over the years. Perhaps this slow process of earning could be expedited if the Dust side members are already Eve players who have been keeping up to date with the latest news and changes of both Eve and Dust and are currently active subscribers. I'm just throwing out an suggestion here for the sake of giving both sides a blueprint for reaching a compromise intended to benefit both Dust and Eve. I like to see both sides work together so that one day we will see Eve and Dust create the future vision CCP and the players wanted. If any of you disagree with me or if there is a flaw in my suggestion, please let me know. I can take constructive criticism. But I also want to remind people that I ignore child-like criticism.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.02 00:30:00 - [4] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: ^^ Look, another well thought out, well informed post who can see that being on the CSM is as i stated a hell of a lot more than just being involved in the minor topics that you're "assigned" to. You have a hand in everything and thus have to know about everything including the EVE mechanics i mentioned above and how they will filter down into Dust. Anyone who's talking about the CSM is talking way too prematurely for it. IT'S TOO EARLY AND ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER YEAR. Even if you idiots put yourself forward as CSM candidates on the EVE side in the coming months to try and get around that you're just going to get ridiculed and laughed at. Patience is what you need if you want to be on the CSM, if you're just going to try and bully your ways into it before the games even released and anyone has a formal interest in it you're just showing that you're only interested in doing it for personal reasons and in a vein attempt to raise yourself above the rest of the community in an attempt to demand respect and appear better than your average Dust player. That's not how you gain peoples respect. Not sure if calling others an idiot is a good way to portray your professionalism here. But I see your point in regards to waiting until AFTER Dust is released to finally consider adding Dust members to the CSM.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.02 00:48:00 - [5] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I speak my mind, i'm not interested in professionalism, i'm here to have fun not take on another job. If Dust becomes all about work and not fun at all, i'm doing something very, very, very wrong which is why i've just taken a 6 week break or so. Dust was becoming too serious for me, i felt the need to step back and take a wee break and come back with a fresh perspective on things, other people could learn from that actually. As i've said, i've no interest in taking part on anything CSM related at the moment, it's premature and i think anyone who's even considering it right now and idiots with an inflated ego and opinion of themselves as some sort of Console messiah and should take a look in the mirror and a step back to reflect on things for awhile, i'm entitled to an opinion and to voice it however i wish the same as you are. I couldn't care less what people think of me and that's why some people love me and some people hate me here. Great that you voice your opinion and that you respect mines. Anyways, I just realized something about professionalism. We capsuleers have elected members of the CSM 7 who later got drunk in the Fanfest 2012 panel. No one complained about that. I guess I forgot that professionalism is a word that doesn't exist in New Eden.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.02 03:30:00 - [6] - Quote Joran Myokenes wrote: Back on the topic of Dust and CSM, how about instead of trying to make it so some seats have to be dust players, or create another council, or just let it be, we rename CSM to be the New Eden Council of Interests (NECI), and expand it to have 18 seats, nine of which are capsuleers and nine of which are immortals. Later on we could give it it's own Station with design and rooms which the council could operate out of, instead of a simple forum thread( this would likely come later). Three extra seats is more than enough. You have to consider travel cost for the members. They have to meet in real life you know.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.03 21:52:00 - [7] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Seleene wrote: Until DUST becomes something more than closed-beta vaporware (which has been in development for the better part of 4-5 years) and CCP starts talking to the community about their plans for it beyond some grey area, "The two games will connect!" stuff, I really don't see a point to a "DUST Player" running for CSM. I think it would be interesting to see someone whose primary focus was on a console only game running for the council of a PC only game though. Sure, give it a shot. TLDR - There are enough DUST bunnies on the CSM (or in contact with the CSM) already, or at least there were until Planetside 2 came out. v0v For the record, Seleene is a CSM member. This reinforces what I said earlier about future DUST-side members in the CSM having to first earn the trust of everyone if they want to be taken seriously.