DUST Search - A new idea for "Armor Love"

Spitfighter DC wrote:

Jotun Hiem wrote:

Piercing Serenity wrote:

*
Now, maybe a heavy recovering its health in 12 seconds is too fast for some. ThatGÇÖs fine. We can double the time by cutting the repair rate in half. It would take 23 seconds for a militia heavy to restore health at a rate of 1% total armor/sec. The balance is much better between the two suits, in my opinion.

Actually, it would take one hundred seconds for a heavy to fully replenish his armor at the rate of 1% per second. And if the prototype repair module still restored armor at it's rate of 5% per second, then it would take twenty seconds for any suit to fully recover armor.

That said, I wouldn't mind having armor repair modules recover health based on percentage. It would make armor repair modules a whole lot more attractive to Heavies and make armor tanking a tad more viable.

This should not happen. In no way would it be fair to another drop suite to have an equal rate of repair as a heavy. The whole point is that heavies have a lot more armor to survive. They take a lot longer to kill and take a lot longer to repair. With this method, we mig as well make weapons do a percentage of damage too. I am an armor using logi and I know it takes a while to repair my armor, but that goes with the territory of using armor.

However, I do think armor should have a stronger resistance to weapons fire than shields, but be weaker to heat damage like laser rifles. Also, I do think that the repair rate of the armor repair modules is way under a realistic amount. It needs to be closer to Basic = 5, extended = 10, and complex = 20 doubling with each next level of the module because engineers found a way to compress the nanites in the modules used to repair the drop suite (RP).

Yes the repair rates are too low and need to be increased, but don't make them percentages otherwise you're telling me nannies work faster on a heavy with more armor than an assault with less.

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Piercing Serenity Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 181	Posted - 2012.11.27 05:46:00 - [1] - Quote EDIT TL:DR - Percent armor recharge will give armor more love and still keep things balanced I am arguing that armor is so unused because of its slow recharge rate and increased aggro when compared to shields. Additionally, the current system hurts heavies GÇô a class built to use tons of armor GÇô the most and benefits the assault and logistic class the most. The latter classes can restore their armor to full many times faster than a heavy suit can due to their many low slots to fit armor reppers, which will save their lives more often in the long run. I believe that changing the armor repair rates from GÇ£raw HP per secondGÇ¥ to GÇ£percent HP per secondGÇ¥ will largely fix this problem and encourage a greater mix between armor and shield users. Currently, shields are preferable to armor because they shields recover larger amounts of HP per second than armor, leading to a shorter time between any given shield value and full shield health. I believe that this preference stems from the fact that the longer it takes for your health GÇô shield or armor GÇô to recover, the more aggro you draw to yourself. This results in more deaths on average. IGÇÖll use an example to illustrate this point better. Consider my Assault and Heavy builds. I use Type II assault dropsuit with 650 EHP GÇô 450 shield and 200 armor and a a militia heavy with the same EHP but with a different split GÇô100 shield and 550 armor. LetGÇÖs assume that they both have a basic shield recharge rate of 25 Shield HP per second. They also both players run one standard armor repairer because I noticed that having a barely armor bar caused everyone to focus on them, trying to get the easy kill, regardless of how much actual health they have. 20% of my assualtGÇÖs armor is 40 HP, while 20% of my heavyGÇÖs armor is 110 HP. Because nobody can see the actual number for how much health their target has, both dropsuitGÇÖs Armor and Shield bars look equally weak, even though my heavy has almost three times as much health. It will take my assault suit 56 seconds to be at full EHP - 16 seconds from when my shield start to recharge to reach full shield health, and 40 seconds for my armor to return to its full value. My heavy will take 224 seconds, four times as long, to get to the same EHP GÇô 4 seconds from when my shield start to recharge to being full, and 220 seconds for my armor to recharge to full. If there is a relationship between the time it takes to fully heal yourself and the attention you draw to yourself, all armor based suits are screwed. This should not be the case. I propose that by changing the base repair rate from GÇ£2HP/sGÇ¥ to GÇ£2% of total HP/sGÇ¥, the balance between armor and shield can be realized. If my system were put into place, my assault suit would take 36 seconds to heal to full EHP GÇô 4 seconds for the shield and 20 for the armor. My heavy would recover to full health in 44 seconds. This seems like a much better balance to me. Both suits would recover the same effective health at far more similar rates. Granted, my Assault suit has almost five million SP invested in it and my heavy suit has about one million. So letGÇÖs look at militia examples. A basic Type II assault suit has 225 shield and 105 armor, and a total recharge time of 49.2s. A militia heavy (without any SP investment in armor repair rate or mechanics) has 100 shield and 550 armor, and a total recharge rate of 224 seconds. My changes would not affect the repair rate of shield heavy players with little skill investment in armor, mechanics, or armor repairing. The assault suit would heal 2.1 HP/s and be completely restored in 47.2 seconds GÇô a 2 second difference. It would however, bring a balance to the recharge times between the shield heavy suit and the armor heavy suit. The militia heavy suit would be completely recharged in 44 seconds. This would add a new dynamic to choosing whether to shield or armor tank. Shield tankers would have much shorter recharge times for their primary (read: shield) health to recover to full but draw more attention to themselves because of their slow armor repair rate. Armor tankers would sacrifice speed and shorter recharge times for a much faster regen rate. Notice that these problems even out as SP is added to armor repairing. Our Type II suit takes 7.2 seconds to charge to full shield. This is a fast charge time, but this suit only has 225 total shield. Our militia heavy suit with a prototype repper takes 11.42 seconds to recover his primary health. The difference is still in favor of shields, but it is not nearly as drastic. IGÇÖd argue that the heavy would lose his health much faster because of his speed and hit box size, and the assault would be able to duck in and out of cover to restore health. Now, maybe a heavy recovering its health in 12 seconds is too fast for some. ThatGÇÖs fine. We can double the time by cutting the repair rate in half. It would take 23 seconds for a militia heavy to restore health at a rate of 1% total armor/sec. The balance is much better between the two suits, in my opinion. Tell me what you think, and please let me know if any math or numbers are wrong. I think armor needs more love too. PSN: PiercingSerenity Country: U.S Class: Assault, Heavy Corp: Shattered Ascension [SH4T]
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2012.11.27 06:45:00 - [2] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: * Now, maybe a heavy recovering its health in 12 seconds is too fast for some. ThatGÇÖs fine. We can double the time by cutting the repair rate in half. It would take 23 seconds for a militia heavy to restore health at a rate of 1% total armor/sec. The balance is much better between the two suits, in my opinion. Actually, it would take one hundred seconds for a heavy to fully replenish his armor at the rate of 1% per second. And if the prototype repair module still restored armor at it's rate of 5% per second, then it would take twenty seconds for any suit to fully recover armor. That said, I wouldn't mind having armor repair modules recover health based on percentage. It would make armor repair modules a whole lot more attractive to Heavies and make armor tanking a tad more viable.
Spitfighter DC Doomheim 5	Posted - 2012.11.27 08:12:00 - [3] - Quote Jotun Hiem wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: * Now, maybe a heavy recovering its health in 12 seconds is too fast for some. ThatGÇÖs fine. We can double the time by cutting the repair rate in half. It would take 23 seconds for a militia heavy to restore health at a rate of 1% total armor/sec. The balance is much better between the two suits, in my opinion. Actually, it would take one hundred seconds for a heavy to fully replenish his armor at the rate of 1% per second. And if the prototype repair module still restored armor at it's rate of 5% per second, then it would take twenty seconds for any suit to fully recover armor. That said, I wouldn't mind having armor repair modules recover health based on percentage. It would make armor repair modules a whole lot more attractive to Heavies and make armor tanking a tad more viable. This should not happen. In no way would it be fair to another drop suite to have an equal rate of repair as a heavy. The whole point is that heavies have a lot more armor to survive. They take a lot longer to kill and take a lot longer to repair. With this method, we mig as well make weapons do a percentage of damage too. I am an armor using logi and I know it takes a while to repair my armor, but that goes with the territory of using armor. However, I do think armor should have a stronger resistance to weapons fire than shields, but be weaker to heat damage like laser rifles. Also, I do think that the repair rate of the armor repair modules is way under a realistic amount. It needs to be closer to Basic = 5, extended = 10, and complex = 20 doubling with each next level of the module because engineers found a way to compress the nanites in the modules used to repair the drop suite (RP). Yes the repair rates are too low and need to be increased, but don't make them percentages otherwise you're telling me nannies work faster on a heavy with more armor than an assault with less.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.27 08:39:00 - [4] - Quote Spitfighter DC wrote: Jotun Hiem wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: * Now, maybe a heavy recovering its health in 12 seconds is too fast for some. ThatGÇÖs fine. We can double the time by cutting the repair rate in half. It would take 23 seconds for a militia heavy to restore health at a rate of 1% total armor/sec. The balance is much better between the two suits, in my opinion. Actually, it would take one hundred seconds for a heavy to fully replenish his armor at the rate of 1% per second. And if the prototype repair module still restored armor at it's rate of 5% per second, then it would take twenty seconds for any suit to fully recover armor. That said, I wouldn't mind having armor repair modules recover health based on percentage. It would make armor repair modules a whole lot more attractive to Heavies and make armor tanking a tad more viable. This should not happen. In no way would it be fair to another drop suite to have an equal rate of repair as a heavy. The whole point is that heavies have a lot more armor to survive. They take a lot longer to kill and take a lot longer to repair. With this method, we mig as well make weapons do a percentage of damage too. I am an armor using logi and I know it takes a while to repair my armor, but that goes with the territory of using armor. However, I do think armor should have a stronger resistance to weapons fire than shields, but be weaker to heat damage like laser rifles. Also, I do think that the repair rate of the armor repair modules is way under a realistic amount. It needs to be closer to Basic = 5, extended = 10, and complex = 20 doubling with each next level of the module because engineers found a way to compress the nanites in the modules used to repair the drop suite (RP). Yes the repair rates are too low and need to be increased, but don't make them percentages otherwise you're telling me nannies work faster on a heavy with more armor than an assault with less. i pleaded this over and over and over again.... i even have a thread to dig up somewhere. The idea of using percentage isnt bad in itself but it would be way more simple to just change the value of the current armor reps. Now, basic value of those isnt the sole problem. The skill linked to armor repping is also pathetic and fully useless for infantry. 5% raise of HP repair rate per level barely allows you to reach 6 HP\sec with a complex and LVL 5. That said, the boost needed isnt that big. You guys shouldnt forget that armor reppers will rep whatever happends. When shield have a cooldown after being shot before they actually regen. This difference justifies the higher rate of regen of the shield. Also it's energy based vs nanites rebuilding armor so it makes sense. In my opinion, one armor repping module shouldnt give more than 15Hp repair per sec. Or you'd risk to see some very frustrating things. My suggestion would be : Basic repper : 3 HP Advanced repper : 5 HP Complex repper : 10 HP And the skills associated should go from +5% per level to +1 HP/sec per level. But, as this skill is also linked to vehicle armor repairer, it would then make this skills useless to those big reppers. So if CCP could find a way to combine those effects, it would be perfect. Or just make the skill do both and deal with the basic values again : Basic repper : 2Hp Advanced Repper : 4 Hp Complex Repper : 8 Hp Skill : + 1 HP/sec and +5% HP overall regen rate per level Wich would give us : Level 1 : basic repper 2 HP + 1 bonus HP + 5% bonus => (2+1) + (2+1) * 0.05 = 3.15 => 3 HP/sec Level 2 : basic repper 2 HP + 2 bonus HP + 10 % bonus => (2+2) + (2+2) *0.10 => 4.4 => 4 HP/ sec Level 3 : (let's strip the math) Basic repper => 6 HP regen rate. Advanced repper => 8 HP/sec Level 4 : Basic => 7 HP per sec Advanced => 10 HP/sec Level 5 : Basic => 9 HP Advanced => 11HP/sec Complex => 15 HP/sec Let's consider a 20 seconds cycle in game. Dude with armor rep would restore with one complex : 300 HP Dude with a standard shield regen rate would restore : 5 seconds delay to start regen then 15 seconds at 25 HP per pulse => 500 HP. Shield keeps the lead in regen potential. And it can be enhanced through modules. But it would raise armor back to a decent level. Thoughts ?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.27 08:54:00 - [5] - Quote Here's my response to the GD version of this thread: Garrett Blacknova wrote: That would either make armour reppers horrible underpowered for EVERYONE, or would make Heavies OP instead of balanced like they will be when Logis are rewarded fairly for repping you. Problem is the "hotfix" that's holding back many Logi players from using Repair Tools. No WP at all means very few Logi players running as healers, which in turn means you're relying on your Armour Repairers ALL the time, instead of just as a stopgap measure while your Logi gets around to patching you up.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.27 10:42:00 - [6] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Here's my response to the GD version of this thread: Garrett Blacknova wrote: That would either make armour reppers horrible underpowered for EVERYONE, or would make Heavies OP instead of balanced like they will be when Logis are rewarded fairly for repping you. Problem is the "hotfix" that's holding back many Logi players from using Repair Tools. No WP at all means very few Logi players running as healers, which in turn means you're relying on your Armour Repairers ALL the time, instead of just as a stopgap measure while your Logi gets around to patching you up. and what's your take on my suggestion to enhance slightly armor reppers ?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.27 11:05:00 - [7] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: and what's your take on my suggestion to enhance slightly armor reppers ? My take is "use Repair Tools" like it already was. Buffing Armour PLATES is a good idea - making them a % bonus instead of a fixed value could work - would also be good for vehicles. Scaling armour by a percentage value makes more sense from a logical perspective than making the Repairers work on a % basis, and also works better for balance than scaling up the regen rate.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2012.11.27 11:07:00 - [8] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Here's my response to the GD version of this thread: Garrett Blacknova wrote: That would either make armour reppers horrible underpowered for EVERYONE, or would make Heavies OP instead of balanced like they will be when Logis are rewarded fairly for repping you. Problem is the "hotfix" that's holding back many Logi players from using Repair Tools. No WP at all means very few Logi players running as healers, which in turn means you're relying on your Armour Repairers ALL the time, instead of just as a stopgap measure while your Logi gets around to patching you up. and what's your take on my suggestion to enhance slightly armor reppers ? 15 HP/sec is way too high, even on a heavy I would say. Why would anyone need a repair tool when they can just fit a local repper this good? I wouldn't mind changing it to 3 HP/sec for the basic repper, 5 for enhanced and 8 for complex, while keeping the skill as it is.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.27 11:27:00 - [9] - Quote Yeah i guess it would kinda kill the armor rep role for logis. But i still find odd that shield guys can just rely on themselves and armor dudes need support. i agree with the buff to armor plates. Percentage idea, not so much honestly.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.27 11:33:00 - [10] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: i agree with the buff to armor plates. Percentage idea, not so much honestly. I'm not entirely sure about it myself. They definitely need a buff, and that would be a way to buff them that can be logically explained as well as adjusting balance without as much OP-ness as the suggestion of a percentage-based repair suggestion. Still has similar drawbacks, but I don't think they'd be as bad. I'm leaning towards saying a flat numeric buff ot armour plates is a better idea, but I can't place a clear reason WHY that seems better. What's your specific reasoning behind saying no to it?

Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.11.27 11:39:00 - [11] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: i agree with the buff to armor plates. Percentage idea, not so much honestly. I'm not entirely sure about it myself. They definitely need a buff, and that would be a way to buff them that can be logically explained as well as adjusting balance without as much OP-ness as the suggestion of a percentage-based repair suggestion. Still has similar drawbacks, but I don't think they'd be as bad. I'm leaning towards saying a flat numeric buff ot armour plates is a better idea, but I can't place a clear reason WHY that seems better. What's your specific reasoning behind saying no to it? Dunno. bit of feeling like you. Percentage would risk to buff A LOT heavies or end up being useless to classic infantry. Also, there's the T1/T2 deal with different base armor HP. If it could in a way help with using very specialised fittings for those two profile of suits, it wouldnt be fair if shield extenders were to remain flat HP based and not percentages based themselves. In the end, i'd say that a simple HP increase is just way simpler.
Piercing Serenity Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 181	Posted - 2012.11.27 13:58:00 - [12] - Quote Thanks you guys. I hadn't considered Garret' point until this morning. My 'hotfix' didn't consider the fact that logis will eventually be rewarded for repairing people again. The GD topic has a few more new ideas on how to work with the idea I presented while still making it a bit more 'logi friendly" Cheers, PSN: PiercingSerenity Country: US Class: Assault, Heavy Corp: Shattered Ascension [SH4T]
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.11.27 20:31:00 - [13] - Quote I like it
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.11.27 21:12:00 - [14] - Quote +1 I like the idea, though have not read the majority of the massive text leviathan, I will get to it Later. Seriously, cut some unnecessary stuff, and simplify where possible. It will help your idea get more attention and support. Edit: finished reading.
I-Shayz-I ZionTCD Legacy Rising 172	Posted - 2012.11.27 22:00:00 - [15] - Quote Wait, instead of a repair percentage rate, why not an armor percentage rate? Instead of armor plating increasing the amount of armor in hitpoints, it would increase the amount of armor by a percentage. For instance, if you already had mechanics lvl 5, that would increase a heavy type I suit from 650 to 813. Then the armor bonus from the modules would boost off of that value. This would benefit players more who specifically wanted to armor tank. Using the heavy I suit: Militia would add 7% or 46-57 (depending on mechanics level) Basic would add 10% or 65-81 Advanced would add 15% or 98-122 Complex would add 25% or 163-203 The only problem with this idea is that it makes armor worthless to classes without a large amount of armor already. The only realistic solution is if these modules added at LEAST a certain amount. For instance, a militia module would add at least 46 armor, but as much as 57.
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.11.27 23:57:00 - [16] - Quote I think this could still work and not deny Logi's their roles. Shield guys are already self sufficient, armor just can't compete at the moment. The solution is to either a.) give a flat buff to all armor, such that the slow repair rate doesn't matter as much because armor lasts longer than shields anyways b.) give a buff to armor plates, make them a % bonus instead of a numerical bonus c.) make Armor reps a % rate, instead of numerical d.) do both options b and c and buff the repair guns effective rate of repair, making a Logi more useful than a self armor repper. Honestly, b. and c. could go together, and as long as they are properly balanced, would not shut out Logis.
DarkShadowFox Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 238	Posted - 2012.11.28 00:26:00 - [17] - Quote I use armor alll the time, I give armor more love than I do someone in bed LOL xD


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