DUST Search - so...wheres the undo button?

Maken Tosch wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

I personally don't see any value in forcing someone to live with an uniformed decision, I don't think it adds to the game. But people seem to be against it for the sake of making things "hardcore".

You must be new to New Eden.

In New Eden, every action must have meaning. But you can't have meaning for those actions without permanent consequences. If I fitted my dropsuit poorly and I die often because of it, then I must live with that mistake for the rest of my life and use as a learning experience instead. If I skilled into a specialized profession that doesn't give me much reward in terms of ISK or SP, then I must accept that.

It does not matter whether or not you were uninformed at the start. What matters are having meaningful choices through permanent consequences. You can never have action without an equal and opposite reaction.

If you pay attention, much of us here are actually from the Eve Online universe that has operated under such a harsh and brutal culture for 9 years. Many of us have robbed corporations, assassinated CEOs and directors, scammed newbies of their hard-earned ISK, destroyed defenseless mining ships in high-sec without provocation or war declaration, and have burned economies without giving it a single thought. Because of this harsh and brutal culture we have bred some of the most organized and cohesive players in the history of gaming that rival even the most powerful guilds in World of Warcraft. In addition to this, we have built one of the most sophisticated intelligence/counter-intelligence networks known to gaming with hierarchies similar to that of real-world corporations.

And all this would not be possible were it not for permanent consequences.


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Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.24 19:44:00 - [1] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I personally don't see any value in forcing someone to live with an uniformed decision, I don't think it adds to the game. But people seem to be against it for the sake of making things "hardcore". You must be new to New Eden. In New Eden, every action must have meaning. But you can't have meaning for those actions without permanent consequences. If I fitted my dropsuit poorly and I die often because of it, then I must live with that mistake for the rest of my life and use as a learning experience instead. If I skilled into a specialized profession that doesn't give me much reward in terms of ISK or SP, then I must accept that. It does not matter whether or not you were uninformed at the start. What matters are having meaningful choices through permanent consequences. You can never have action without an equal and opposite reaction. If you pay attention, much of us here are actually from the Eve Online universe that has operated under such a harsh and brutal culture for 9 years. Many of us have robbed corporations, assassinated CEOs and directors, scammed newbies of their hard-earned ISK, destroyed defenseless mining ships in high-sec without provocation or war declaration, and have burned economies without giving it a single thought. Because of this harsh and brutal culture we have bred some of the most organized and cohesive players in the history of gaming that rival even the most powerful guilds in World of Warcraft. In addition to this, we have built one of the most sophisticated intelligence/counter-intelligence networks known to gaming with hierarchies similar to that of real-world corporations. And all this would not be possible were it not for permanent consequences.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.25 01:58:00 - [2] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I personally don't see any value in forcing someone to live with an uniformed decision, I don't think it adds to the game. But people seem to be against it for the sake of making things "hardcore". You must be new to New Eden. In New Eden, every action must have meaning. But you can't have meaning for those actions without permanent consequences. If I fitted my dropsuit poorly and I die often because of it, then I must live with that mistake for the rest of my life and use as a learning experience instead. If I skilled into a specialized profession that doesn't give me much reward in terms of ISK or SP, then I must accept that. It does not matter whether or not you were uninformed at the start. What matters are having meaningful choices through permanent consequences. You can never have action without an equal and opposite reaction. If you pay attention, much of us here are actually from the Eve Online universe that has operated under such a harsh and brutal culture for 9 years. Many of us have robbed corporations, assassinated CEOs and directors, scammed newbies of their hard-earned ISK, destroyed defenseless mining ships in high-sec without provocation or war declaration, and have burned economies without giving it a single thought. Because of this harsh and brutal culture we have bred some of the most organized and cohesive players in the history of gaming that rival even the most powerful guilds in World of Warcraft. In addition to this, we have built one of the most sophisticated intelligence/counter-intelligence networks known to gaming with hierarchies similar to that of real-world corporations. And all this would not be possible were it not for permanent consequences. Let's also not forget that you people are asking a company who has, for nine years, rejected any idea that leads to undoing any of your actions just because of your mistakes unless your actions happen to be illegal like the RMT runners (consequences for doing rmt are very severe). When Band of Brothers fell to Goonswarm, players wanted CCP to undo the damage that was felt when it turned out that a spy disbanded an entire alliance that took over a year to build. CCP said... Tough luck. No rules were broken.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.25 17:13:00 - [3] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: I made a thread a while ago on that matter. If i m not in favor of complete respec, i still think an "undo button" is needed. Something that would allow to cancel last Skill upgrade as long as you dont play game. It would avoid people wanting to kill themselves after upgrading the wrong skill for 1M SP lol. In eve, skill is learned over time so you have plenty of chance to correct a mistake. In dust you invest instantly a ton of SP And as mistake is only human, i think a limited undo button is a good idea as long as it is limited in how it would work. I'd rather see the option to "plan" your SP expenditure like players can in EVE, then you'd be able to change where your SP is going before it's all thrown away on the wrong skills. If you CHOOSE the wrong thing, and pour a huge pile of SP into it, that was a mistake you'll have to live with. But if you're given tools that can help reduce the risk of such problems, that would be nice. Much of the tools you mention such as EveMon, Eve Fitting Tool, etc. are examples of excellent sources of helping a player make an informed decision and thus eliminates the desire for any undo feature. The best part is that these tools are API driven and are player-created. Not only that, but CCP has implemented a nice certificate system in Eve Online that helps capsuleers plan their next skill training for a given skillset such as mastering shields, becoming a pro with artillery weapons, etc. If CCP implements this feature for Dust that would be great. But the biggest help doesn't come from CCP. It comes from the Microsoft Excel spreadsheets. Eve Online didn't become known as a spreadsheet game for nothing. Even now, I see players here in Dust using Excel to estimate proper fitting of a dropsuit taking into account skill levels, PG, CPU, etc. Gnarly, right?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.25 19:35:00 - [4] - Quote Th3rdSun wrote: Chilled Pill wrote: Th3rdSun wrote: While I wouldn't mind it if there was an undo button,a better option would be more extinsive stats showing what your upgraded skills will do for you before you invest SP into them.For example,if I decide to upgrade Weaponry to level 5,I would like to see the exact damage that it's going to produce for each of my weapons that it's valid for. Get a pen and paper, or a calculator, or if you're the nerdy O.C. type, open up a spread sheet. That's the thing though,I shouldn't have to do that.With all of the skills and options,they should have that implemented in the game,just like every other RPG does. DUST 514 is not like every other RPG. If DUST is to ever be unique, it has to act unique. Welcome to spreadsheets online. PS: if doing basic math is too much for you, don't play DUST.