DUST Search - Risk and Reward: What Needs to Change

Free Beers wrote:

Leither Yiltron wrote:

Free Beers wrote:

ccp rewards not penalizes. Also try not to over complicate things as isk rewards can be simple and fair at the same time.

With no penalties then the current, boring brand of gameplay is reinforced. Sure, you can increase rewards to where people will want to fight, but then you have to increase the cost of everything in the game to compensate. 0 risk all reward just can't balance the system.

I wish I could think of a simpler way to distribute rewards, but it's at the very least evident that the current system is terrible. It rewards players who make an active decision to lose the game and to screw their own teammates. If there's no reason to move from spawn, then nobody will want to fight. That's what you're seeing right now.

Not say existing system is pefect or right. CCP is evolving the system each build and i support that.

In regards to penalizing players for losing match with isk reduction. I am already concerned players of lessor skill that die a bunch will have a hard time making enough isk to put them in decent suits on a consistant basis.

I can run 100k suits and more than break eve, or run 56k suits and make a ton of isk. Isk rewards have to be fair to every level of player.

I do know that pve will be a way to earn isk and that some players will be forced to do it to just used standard suits.

Lots to think about and test and we have time.

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Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.11.19 21:46:00 - [1] - Quote Awhile back a really good thread was posted with a very relevant thought. You can check it out here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=391751#post391751. In the original post, SingleTap very clearly explained that one of the biggest flaws in the current rewards system is that there's no bonus for winning. I'd like to follow up on that with the ammunition of another week's worth of experience and say that there's currently not enough penalty for losing. Even if incentives were added for winning matches, we would still face the sniping problem. In fact, the problem might only be exacerbated. With greater ISK rewards for winning, the battlefield becomes much more competitive as the players who care attempt to push their winning percentages and rewards up. They'll end up justifying even more risk in terms of gear than is already being done. The snipers are just a symptom of the problem: No matter how high you push the reward, there will be players who will be perfectly happy to lose while mitigating personal risk. This can't be acceptable. What's needed is an infusion of actual RISK into the equation for losing a match. Here is a suite of changes to risk/reward that could drastically improve our public match game play: (1) Increased rewards for the winning team. (2) Decreased rewards for the losing team. (3) A revamped rewards distribution system that is not purely based on war points. As the current system stands, the biggest share of the "pot" goes to the player with the most war points. This is a terrible distribution method. For now, let's say that the actual distribution is based on how much ISK that character destroyed, with proportional crediting at least for vehicle damage. There's also a very, very important need to start weighting logistics work into the equation again. Those brave souls who play it properly are worth their weight in gold and have balls bigger than oranges, because you certainly don't get any money for playing Logi right now. (4) All players on the losing team lose all deployed assets on the field when the match ends. I know the fourth will be the most controversial, but let's talk about the rewards distribution. The system is broken. Basically, this is what happens in a typical match where an opponent has any form of armor: (1) Enemy armor is called (2) Extensive effort over the course of 2-4 minutes is exerted to remove enemy armor (3) Perhaps 4 people receive war points amounting to 5 kills' and fewer revives' worth of WP. (4) The idiot who ran around slaying infantry during this time gets more war points, and the people who got assists on the vehicle destruction receive hardly anything in return. For the moment, there's no incentive at all to whip out AV, unless you're a bit touched in the head and actually want to win games. It makes more sense to screw your teammates and run around killing red dots. The same is true of almost every single possible activity other than pure slaying. In terms of reducing overall reward for losers and increasing it for winners, it needs to be possible to go ISK efficient if you're being particularly destructive on the losing team. You should, however, want to avoid losing. A better distribution system should help with this. The fourth is primarily to cause vehicle players to THINK before deploying a vehicle. The current system simply doesn't deter the kind of ridiculous, frustrating play that we've all experienced by this point. If you call a tank and run it in and out of the red zone on Manus Peaks, for instance, you can keep it alive for the entire match. You will probably lose the game because your tank doesn't actually have map presence; it runs away at a mean look. But you will probably make more ISK than everyone on the winning team because you will have destroyed a lot of infantry while gaining lots of war points. Under the new system, you would lose your shiny 1mil+ investment. For infantry who spawn in expensive gear, this is also a great way to make sure that you think before you whip it out. Now let me head off the arguments- all of you forum warriors already have a substantially good win/loss record. Your expected value from this suite of changes is positive. Yes, you will lose suits in situations that you feel you can't control, but overall the experience will improve when everyone actually WANTS to win. If your blue dots truly are as "terrible" that they "lose the game" for you while you're "doing really well", then the new distribution system will reward you with a substantial share of the losers' pot. To those of you in tanks: If you're going to call it in, you should call it in because you want to win the game, not because you want to farm ISK while letting your more skilled teammates get cut to shreds. These changes are acutely necessary to patch the ailing atmosphere of public matches in Dust. The current system basically says to a player: Screw your team and screw winning. Camp in the back, get as many kills as you can, and don't die. I don't know about you, but the current system makes for some boring, lifeless gameplay. Rewarding teamwork and victory while promoting ACTION on the battlefield should be the point of the rewards system. It shouldn't be about camping on hill sides boring the entire player base to death. TL;DR: Read the list in the middle and flame at me about how you don't like change.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.11.19 21:52:00 - [2] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: These changes are acutely necessary to patch the ailing atmosphere of public matches in Dust. The current system basically says to a player: Screw your team and screw winning. Camp in the back, get as many kills as you can, and don't die. I don't know about you, but the current system makes for some boring, lifeless gameplay. Rewarding teamwork and victory while promoting ACTION on the battlefield should be the point of the rewards system. It shouldn't be about camping on hill sides boring the entire player base to death. TL;DR: Read the list in the middle and flame at me about how you don't like change. CCP entirely agree with you on this, hence their plans for lowsec faction warfare and nullsec sov wars.
virgindestroyer7 Onslaught Inc 1	Posted - 2012.11.19 21:57:00 - [3] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: These changes are acutely necessary to patch the ailing atmosphere of public matches in Dust. The current system basically says to a player: Screw your team and screw winning. Camp in the back, get as many kills as you can, and don't die. I don't know about you, but the current system makes for some boring, lifeless gameplay. Rewarding teamwork and victory while promoting ACTION on the battlefield should be the point of the rewards system. It shouldn't be about camping on hill sides boring the entire player base to death. TL;DR: Read the list in the middle and flame at me about how you don't like change. CCP entirely agree with you on this, hence their plans for lowsec faction warfare and nullsec sov wars. Leither, this looks like it took alot! Thanks, you've voiced what a lot of us are thinking. Don't forget Gyro's point in all of this either though. I'm sure the masses will want to tweak this a bit ;) but this is a great basis.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1032	Posted - 2012.11.19 21:59:00 - [4] - Quote ccp rewards not penalizes. Also try not to over complicate things as isk rewards can be simple and fair at the same time.
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 108	Posted - 2012.11.19 22:04:00 - [5] - Quote Yes. Yes to everything. Last night, as the enemy started pulling out tanks and dropships out the wazoo, I said "There goes my logi stock.", which I had just bought. Found a heavy and started having fun. Felt good to heal up my mates. Still felt like there was a hole when I realized I get nothing for repairing armor. We still won (in part because myself and an assault guy revived a lot and I repaired them), but it would have been harder if the enemy armor was doing more than just roaming the battlefield looking for kills. Also got a few enemy snipers trying to pick people off.
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.11.19 22:07:00 - [6] - Quote Free Beers wrote: ccp rewards not penalizes. Also try not to over complicate things as isk rewards can be simple and fair at the same time. With no penalties then the current, boring brand of gameplay is reinforced. Sure, you can increase rewards to where people will want to fight, but then you have to increase the cost of everything in the game to compensate. 0 risk all reward just can't balance the system. I wish I could think of a simpler way to distribute rewards, but it's at the very least evident that the current system is terrible. It rewards players who make an active decision to lose the game and to screw their own teammates. If there's no reason to move from spawn, then nobody will want to fight. That's what you're seeing right now.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1032	Posted - 2012.11.19 22:16:00 - [7] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Free Beers wrote: ccp rewards not penalizes. Also try not to over complicate things as isk rewards can be simple and fair at the same time. With no penalties then the current, boring brand of gameplay is reinforced. Sure, you can increase rewards to where people will want to fight, but then you have to increase the cost of everything in the game to compensate. 0 risk all reward just can't balance the system. I wish I could think of a simpler way to distribute rewards, but it's at the very least evident that the current system is terrible. It rewards players who make an active decision to lose the game and to screw their own teammates. If there's no reason to move from spawn, then nobody will want to fight. That's what you're seeing right now. Not say existing system is pefect or right. CCP is evolving the system each build and i support that. In regards to penalizing players for losing match with isk reduction. I am already concerned players of lessor skill that die a bunch will have a hard time making enough isk to put them in decent suits on a consistant basis. I can run 100k suits and more than break eve, or run 56k suits and make a ton of isk. Isk rewards have to be fair to every level of player. I do know that pve will be a way to earn isk and that some players will be forced to do it to just used standard suits. Lots to think about and test and we have time.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2046	Posted - 2012.11.19 22:18:00 - [8] - Quote I agree with everything, the only problem is pub match insta battles can put you on the losing team and **** you over easily. Implement it in null, low, and FW would be good though. Except for number 4, I have always thought that should be in pub matches, and all other matches for that matter. It doesn't make any sense to me that the loosing team gets to leave with there stuff. Personally I would say just add it to the salvage pool. +1
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.11.19 23:02:00 - [9] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: Free Beers wrote: ccp rewards not penalizes. Also try not to over complicate things as isk rewards can be simple and fair at the same time. With no penalties then the current, boring brand of gameplay is reinforced. Sure, you can increase rewards to where people will want to fight, but then you have to increase the cost of everything in the game to compensate. 0 risk all reward just can't balance the system. I wish I could think of a simpler way to distribute rewards, but it's at the very least evident that the current system is terrible. It rewards players who make an active decision to lose the game and to screw their own teammates. If there's no reason to move from spawn, then nobody will want to fight. That's what you're seeing right now. Not say existing system is pefect or right. CCP is evolving the system each build and i support that. In regards to penalizing players for losing match with isk reduction. I am already concerned players of lessor skill that die a bunch will have a hard time making enough isk to put them in decent suits on a consistant basis. I can run 100k suits and more than break eve, or run 56k suits and make a ton of isk. Isk rewards have to be fair to every level of player. I do know that pve will be a way to earn isk and that some players will be forced to do it to just used standard suits. Lots to think about and test and we have time. Increasing ISK rewards for the winning team and a careful distribution system should keep people safe from this. It's a relevant point, though. We need to make sure that all the players in a public match are having fun. The asset loss for losing teams is extremely important in shielding people from ridiculous decision making. I'd say if you get spawned in later than a particular threshold, your gear is retained at the end of the match regardless of outcome.
Aidan Torrall Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2012.11.20 00:34:00 - [10] - Quote Completely agree, OP. +1

SingleTap Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 110	Posted - 2012.11.20 00:36:00 - [11] - Quote I'm SingleTap, and I approve this message.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 208	Posted - 2012.11.20 00:53:00 - [12] - Quote +4 ... make it so !
HowDidThatTaste Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2242	Posted - 2012.11.20 01:02:00 - [13] - Quote Don't forget there is a very low if any ISK return for actually taking out a tank or drop ship. Taking out a Prometheus assisting on two tanks and a few LAVS in the last few minutes of a match only netted me 68,000 isk and killing a few infantry. What would really encourage the hunting of tanks and drop ships would be the huge payouts we saw at the end of the E3 build. Say you got 80% of what you killed divided by the people who assisted you. Then there would be more reason to hunt. I think everyone is under the illusion there are huge payouts for taking out vehicles but there isn't. I will look for the link. See the last entry https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34746&find=unread
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2282	Posted - 2012.11.20 01:02:00 - [14] - Quote #4 is bad for pubs u cant control what team ur gonna be placed on or what time u'll get into the match and also pushes ppl who skilled into vehicles only away from the game Null sure just dont see #4 being a good idea for hisec pick up and play games better ways to limit vehicle usage than that
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2046	Posted - 2012.11.20 01:08:00 - [15] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: #4 is bad for pubs u cant control what team ur gonna be placed on or what time u'll get into the match and also pushes ppl who skilled into vehicles only away from the game Null sure just dont see #4 being a good idea for hisec pick up and play games better ways to limit vehicle usage than that I actually disagree, an awesome way to limit vehicle usage and stop that missile tank from spamming missiles from the redline and do something. As an infantry unit you will only loose a suit. I see nothing wrong with #4 being in pub matches.
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.11.20 03:34:00 - [16] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: #4 is bad for pubs u cant control what team ur gonna be placed on or what time u'll get into the match and also pushes ppl who skilled into vehicles only away from the game Null sure just dont see #4 being a good idea for hisec pick up and play games better ways to limit vehicle usage than that People who have skilled into vehicles will simply have to make smart decisions, rather than camping in the back risking absolutely nothing while stealing income away from their teammates who actually do something relevant during the battle.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.20 03:39:00 - [17] - Quote I think 4 should apply for NullSec, and for some LowSec/FW contracts, but not in HighSec.
Wako 75 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 76	Posted - 2012.11.20 03:53:00 - [18] - Quote what about more wp for the more expensive stuff you kill like this hacking 100 for objectives 50 for instilations, 10 for small things (nano hives, vehicles, and dropuplinks i think should be able to hack these maybe make it a skill?) killing milita 25, basic 50 advanced 75 proto 100 vehicles 50 lav* 100 ds* 150 tank* *plus driver dropsuit Thoughts? Changes?
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.11.20 04:14:00 - [19] - Quote #4 Would just prevent me from calling in a dropship to help my team break out of being redlined. It would encourage me to pull it out when my team was winning and discourage me from pulling it out if I thought we might lose. Thus a winning team would suddenly go vehicle and high end dropsuit heavy and the losing team would switch to BPO fittings even earlier than before which would ensure a loss. It's the reverse incentive from what you want.
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.11.20 04:16:00 - [20] - Quote So people will stop taking out really expensive vehicles in bad situations. Sounds like a plus to me.

Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.11.20 18:43:00 - [21] - Quote An alternative to #4 that was brought up is to only destroy those items that are in the redline for the losing team upon match's end. This allows people actually fighting over the objectives to retain their items and will discourage the redline sniper and missile tank nonsense that I think for the most part only the user appreciates.
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.11.20 18:56:00 - [22] - Quote I like the idea, but I think it would be too easy to exploit. A tank could run out of the red line in the last ten seconds and easily tank whatever was looking at them for that long.


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