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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.10 15:12:00 -
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R'ahz Lupo wrote:Alright! Let's get some people behind "sky spawning"!! TM
WE WANT TO RAIN DOWN FROM THE SKY LIKE TINY METAL BUNDLES OF DEATH!!!!
Drop Uplinks should remain as they are - wormhole-based clone teleportation. CRUs, for obvious reasons, spawn you straight out of a ground-based installation.
But any "default" spawn, including spawning on an objective in a Skirmish battle, or the randomised spawns in Ambush, should spawn us high ABOVE the battlefield.
In addition, whether spawning or just jumping off something stupidly high, we should be able to guide our descent - but only within certain limits - as long as we don't activate the Inertial Dampener. When it triggers, you lose control, but you can wait until you're pretty close to the ground before hitting it.
Spawns will be safer, the specific spawn location will be randomised (or sequential), but players will, as we fall, have some measure of control over our landing point. More importantly, we'll have AWARENESS of the situation we're dropping into. If there are enemies on the ground, WE CAN SEE THEM, and try to manoeuvre somewhere that won't disadvantage us too severely. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.10 18:31:00 -
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Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Also, even drop uplink are weird imo. I always thought they were more like antennas pinpointing coordinates for player to drop on a specific location. Thus, being dropped from the sky to the indicated coordinates.
The backstory behind them explains that they're wormhole tech, not just beacons to drop you on top of.
They're MEANT to basically be a way to teleport to a set location. But they're the only thing in the game that should function as a teleporter. CRUs, likewise, are meant to be basically "clone factories" that build/grow a new body for you, so just appearing next to them is perfectly reasonable.
Everything else, though... not so much. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.12 05:27:00 -
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Governor Odius wrote:If drop uplinks can be teleportation whatevers then why can't objectives have that technology built into them too?
Drop Uplinks are defined in the lore of New Eden as being wormhole tech.
Our objectives are Null Cannon control systems, which have plenty of non-wormhole-related jobs already. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.13 12:57:00 -
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Cat Powers III wrote:So are you invisible as you fall from the sky? I know I've seen people shot while falling from their MCC. I'm not saying everyone would be staring up but that once in however many times where you get shot down before you even touch ground wouldn't kitten you off more that the spawn kill already does?
It would be less annoying, because it's a skill shot instead of a lucky, "right place, right time" situation where they didn't have to put any effort in.
Also, part of the suggestion is for limited freedom of movement while falling, so it wouldn't necessarily be a straight-line drop like it is now.
With the current system, you have about a second of controlled airtime, then you go into a "freefall" mode where you can't control your descent at all. I want that to change. You don't have FULL control, but it would be enough to throw someone's aim off.
When you hit the Inertia Dampener, you fall faster, but you lose that limited control over your fall. Harder target in one sense but easier in another. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.13 17:02:00 -
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R'ahz Lupo wrote:Or maybe...
Disgruntled, bald, Sayian warriors with moustaches grosser than Bennet's from Commando, fly around the battlefield and plant our gene seeds so we can hatch from the ground like furiously green, bulbous headed saibamen of death? We gain the option to self destruct on any unfortunate Yamcha's that are too close to our spawn point.
...
Just sayin', anything is better than what we have. The drop links are okay, but it's really tough to find an advantageous spot when enemies can randomly pop up next to your cleverly hidden beacon.
Some spawn highlights for me so far are:
Spawning in front of an enemy's swinging elbow.
Spawning in front of an oncoming jeep(*space jeep).
Spawning on a grenade.
Spawning in the path of a dropship missle x8.
Spawning in front of three or more enemies x14.
Selecting "default spawn point" to avoid getting spawn trapped with my team near the CRU, only to spawn on the CRU x3.
I think my highlight is spawning in the path of a sniper round that was aimed at someone else.
Yes, seriously. The guy thanked me for getting in the way.
Also, on the Saiyan thing... we're supposedly going to be getting an auto-destruct module that explodes when you die. So that's coming. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.13 17:20:00 -
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R'ahz Lupo wrote:Really...?
I can't really see that being very viable, to be honest. More than anything, this game seems to be about range. Snipers forced to camp from a mile away to stay out of AR range. High tier AR proto builds out ranging regular AR. HMG getting out ranged by AR. Very rarely do I actually have a close range fire fight. This game seems to revolve around the mid to long range.
Unless the self destruct has a mile radius ;)
Really? I've been finding SMGs becoming more and more viable as time goes on and I learn new ways to cross the map without exposing myself to enemy snipers and AR guys. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.14 22:59:00 -
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R'ahz Lupo wrote:Almost all the matches I've played have been dominated by codewish/killswitch teams or dual dropships. I can usually travel the map safely - I know how to use cover and skirt the edges to flank, but when it comes to an actual fire fight I find they always occurr at range. I hardly even see shotgun shock troopers - which is surprising considering the shotgun's strength*
I use Shotguns occasionally too.
But Sky SpawningGäó needs more love!
Come on!!! Who DOESN'T want to fall out of the air from miles above the battlefield? |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.15 00:01:00 -
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Wave spawning would harm one of the mechanics that encourages players to wait for a revive instead of just bleeding out as soon as they go down though.
Waiting for a revive means shorter respawn time. Without that encouragement, you're going to see less players - particularly blueberries - willing to hold on a few seconds to maybe get revived. it's not a sure thing, but it means less of a delay when they spawn. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.15 01:40:00 -
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Mobius Wyvern wrote:I'm still not sold on any kind of idea like this. If we need objectives or Drop Uplinks as coordinate points to perform a "spawn", how do you figure it would be able to put you up in the air like that?
That's just from an in-game lore standpoint. I'm not sure if any of you were in the earliest builds of Planetside 2, but I can pointedly recall the Instant Action system in that game, and how my outfit would take a base, but Flak MAXes on the roof, and just shoot down all the drop pods. Dropping in from the sky sounds cool until you try to put it into practice. As we all know, the inertial canceller does nothing to stop you from being shot, and having people spawn in from the sky even in Ambush matches where it would be randomized would just leave good marksman with easy airborne prey.
And you're making the same assumption of uncontrolled freefall that has already been debunked.
Make it so while you're NOT running the inertia dampener, you can alter the direction you're falling in. Not massively, but a small amount. And when you hit the dampener, you should speed up by enough to potentially throw off a shooter's aim.
Also, other games have successfully implemented drop spawns.
As for how they work, that was also covered in my OP.
Drop Uplinks are described in lore as a wormhole system. NULL Cannons are objectives you can spawn on, and there are also fixed spawn locations and CRUs. In the MCC it's reasonable to assume you're spawning in an on-board CRU, so the same "spawn at this location" rules apply to both. Being wormhole tech and not just a "beacon" for you to drop onto, Uplinks are effectively a teleporter if you work with the existing lore for the game.
Only the starting spawn point(s) and objective spawns will spawn you in the sky, and all they have to do is the simple method of setting a spawn location ABOVE the battlefield instead of at ground level, and adjust the freefall mechanics (which could use some work anyway, because having 0 control after only 1m of falling is pretty awkward). |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.15 02:07:00 -
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Mobius Wyvern wrote:See, I'm actually not making that assumption. Those pods were originally able to deviate from their initial landing point to a far greater degree, and it never did anything to help them. I think you could get a good 100 meters in any direction after initially spawning in the pod, but it wouldn't save you from Flak equipped infantry aiming up. You can't shoot at players falling to the ground in Section 8, for example, you can only hit them with Flak turrets which are on objectives you don't own or can be deployed by any player with enough resources. That's not the way Dust works.
In every game I've played or seen with drop pods (which are different from freefall in your Dropsuit in DUST, by the way), you have a decent SPEED of lateral movement, but not very much PRECISION - once you've set yourself in motion in a particular direction, you can't change it easily. What I was thinking of is SLOWER horizontal movement, but with more CONTROL over the fall. you can't move back and forth quickly, but you can CHANGE DIRECTION sharply to throw off a shooter's aim.
Keep in mind that snipers won't be firing hitscan insta-kill bullets after the next update. If you change course slightly as a distant sniper is shooting, they're going to miss because of the travel time. If you hit the Inertia Dampener and that changes your fall speed as I've suggested, they're going to miss because they've worked the bullet drop out based on your speed before the dampener kicked in. Basically, there won't be any weapon that can just point-and-click kill you. As you change direction, people will need to track you effectively AND anticipate the direction changes and lead their shots based on pure guesswork.
Hitting a player walking (not even moving at full NON-sprint speed) in an irregular zigzag pattern is difficult enough when you're not just point-and-click hitscanning the target. Imagine that while they're zigzagging back and forth slowly, they're ALSO moving downward at freefall speeds. it's NOT going to make you an easy target. |
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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.15 12:16:00 -
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Mobius Wyvern wrote:Again, though, snipers aren't the issue. We may not have Flak, but we do have hitscan full-auto weapons. And that's not even accounting for the Laser Rifle, which I've been burned off the back of a speeding LAV with more than once, and from a 90 degree angle no less. If we already have players that can do that reliably, no matter how much range of motion you have when you drop in, quite a few people are going to get burned on their way down with no way to avoid it. The same goes for ARs with Sharpshooter skill, and some other ARs may even have longer ranges than the plasma based ones we have right now. I think keeping ground spawns and focusing on a system that spawns you near allies or at the very least away from enemies is a better idea, as it puts your boots on the ground immediately while solving the only real issue with the current system, that being getting gunned down either soon after spawn or before you can even move. I would imagine getting gunned down in the air would be found to be far more annoying for debatable gain.
Not sure why you used the LAV example, since it's completely irrelevant.
If you're at a 90 degree angle from a fast-moving LAV, anything short of a sharp turn - which basically makes the target a sitting duck for a second - will have negligible effect on where the Laser Rifle needs to be aimed.
The LAV has a single axis of movement, and the specific movement direction can be angled GRADUALLY across another single axis. You don't even have full freedom of 2D movement while traveling at any kind of speed. And that's without considering the LAV's larger scan profile, or the fact that it's a more visible target - even if you're aiming for a Dropsuit within that target, not the whole thing. You're easier to locate precisely while in that LAV than you will be dropping down onto the battlefield.
A falling Dropsuit has fast movement on one axis, and, assuming my suggestion is taken, FULL FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT ON A 2D PLANE ASIDE FROM THAT MOVEMENT AXIS. Being shot out of your LAV from the ideal angle where any evasive action is completely negated doesn't compare. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.11.20 21:26:00 -
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Still would love.
I second that. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.12.02 02:32:00 -
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Arron Rift wrote:They have something very similar to this in Starhawk (another game I play) and it is awesome, but it does cause some problems with map design because any roofs or overhangs perminently prevent people from spawning under them.
Drop Uplinks and CRUs would allow you to circumvent this problem in DUST though, because they wouldn't use the sky spawning system. CRUs are locations with clones on-site, and Drop Uplinks are a teleportation tech, so both options would offer alternatives - something you don't have in Starhawk (I've played it, and while I can say it's a good game, I never enjoyed it much myself... probably because I suck) |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.12.04 08:14:00 -
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Terram Nenokal wrote:Spawning from the air for objectives and random spawning would be excellent, but only if we get a bit of air control based on our mass.
Would also be nice to start the descent cloaked and when you start air controlling or inertia stabilizing you break cloak, that way your location can't be tracked, and adding a bit of risk v reward to the whole mechanic.
Limited control while falling was a core part of the suggestion in the first place, so we're agreed on that much. I hadn't even thought about different mass changing your mobility while falling, though - great idea!
I also quite like the cloaking suggestion. That would also be useful.
Dakka Opiatus wrote:This needs to be in the game. NOW.
Did you get the idea of sky spawning from section 8:prejudice?
Section 8, Starhawk, Warhammer 40,000, the old trailer for DUST 514 that's being used as an intro video in the beta, and the falling and Inertia Dampener mechanics.
Bits and pieces of the idea came from a variety of sources. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.12.04 13:16:00 -
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Laurent Cazaderon wrote:did you get any feedback on your idea from devs ? It's worth poking Wang on tweeter to know more. Personnaly, i'm fond of this first for the "makes more sense" part of it than just appearing out of nowhere.  And then, it's also a nice fix for terrible spawn. At least this way, you get a chance at seeing what you're getting in.
I haven't seen any dev feedback specifically referencing this idea, no.
There's been some discussion about them having ideas for how to change the mechanics to better suit the game, but nothing, as far as I've seen, which specifically refers to giving players aerial spawn points.
I'd like to see it happen, but I haven't seen any evidence (yet) that the devs are considering it. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.12.07 13:34:00 -
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Beforcial wrote:Bump! and +1 to aerial spawning.
Thanks for the bump  |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.12.16 19:07:00 -
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ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote:Kaze Eyrou wrote:ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote:Kaze Eyrou wrote:Gameplay: Section 8 Prejudice Narrator/Commentator: Total Halibut This video shows how I think this game should have spawns. AA might have to be implemented in order to preserve balance but I loved this system and every time I died in this game, I never attributed it to poor spawning. Also, a side note, this game also runs on Unreal Engine 3, so I don't think it would be hard to implement. Now remember, I don't think everything from this game should be carried over and DUST should be a clone of this game. All I'm focusing on is the spawn system only. Funny, I posted something about it yesterday. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=47429&find=unread Sent you a +1.  Thanks, tho it would be even better if you post so it doesn't get buried.
Just bumping this, and letting you know I'll do the same for your thread  |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2012.12.26 00:16:00 -
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kyan west wrote:starhawk does this
So does Section 8.
Also, just another bump for this thread while people are discussing the idea elsewhere. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.01.21 00:50:00 -
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Thanks for keeping this thread alive guys.
And nice trailer concept, Hunter. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.01.21 08:09:00 -
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Evicer wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:R'ahz Lupo wrote:Alright! Let's get some people behind "sky spawning"!! TM WE WANT TO RAIN DOWN FROM THE SKY LIKE TINY METAL BUNDLES OF DEATH!!!! Drop Uplinks should remain as they are - wormhole-based clone teleportation. CRUs, for obvious reasons, spawn you straight out of a ground-based installation. But any "default" spawn, including spawning on an objective in a Skirmish battle, or the randomised spawns in Ambush, should spawn us high ABOVE the battlefield. In addition, whether spawning or just jumping off something stupidly high, we should be able to guide our descent - but only within certain limits - as long as we don't activate the Inertial Dampener. When it triggers, you lose control, but you can wait until you're pretty close to the ground before hitting it. Spawns will be safer, the specific spawn location will be randomised (or sequential), but players will, as we fall, have some measure of control over our landing point. More importantly, we'll have AWARENESS of the situation we're dropping into. If there are enemies on the ground, WE CAN SEE THEM, and try to manoeuvre somewhere that won't disadvantage us too severely. This would be a rip off and possible copyright infringement of a game named Section 8.
No it wouldn't.
The concept has existed in various forms of fiction that existed years before Section 8, and has been done in similar manner in games prior to Section 8. It's not ripping Section 8 off when they were ripping off multiple sources by doing it themselves.
Section 8's system isn't identical to how this suggestion would work, but it's similar enough to draw parallels. Just like you can draw parallels with Starhawk, Warhammer 40,000 etc. |
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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.02.09 18:09:00 -
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Just giving this a bump, since it's still relevant and worth trying to keep alive. |
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Posted - 2013.03.10 17:38:00 -
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I still want to fall from the sky.
me too! |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.07.16 11:47:00 -
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I've been informed that someone liked this thread again recently.
82 likes. Awesome. Keep the conversation going? Please? |
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Posted - 2013.07.16 11:59:00 -
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Jackof All-Trades wrote:Thank Kageshi, he's the one who remembered.
Seriously though, I do not want to randomly be appearing on the battlefield. The cloak worked mechanics-wise, but it makes no sense whatsoever.
DISCUSS MY MINIONS (no but like please)
I don't want people appearing randomly either.
There should be Uplinks which work like they do now (because wormholes), CRUs and MCCs which work like they do now (because clones), and objectives to Sky SpawnGäó on. In Ambush matches, you get the randomised spawn location, but you spawn high above the battlefield instead of on the ground.
As mentioned in the OP, I want them to alter falling mechanics a little as well. They need to allow (very) limited control while you're falling - at least until you trigger the Inertia Dampener. |
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Posted - 2013.08.30 21:51:00 -
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I second that "still a super fun idea" comment.
...obviously. |
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Posted - 2013.09.09 10:18:00 -
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KING CHECKMATE wrote:+1, but you are missing one important point.
Now, dropships putting players on unreachable roofs and uplinks there will not be an issue anymore. No unreachable Mass driver users/snipers , forge gunners etc...
so another +1 if i could....
HOW DID I MISS THAT?
+1 for a brilliant positive that I failed to address!
Thank you. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.09.09 10:46:00 -
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ChromeBreaker wrote:INB4 tears for getting shot by the objective cannons as you decend.
Also this wont work for internal objectives...
First point: That would be hilarious.
Your second point is a very good one, though. If the objective is indoors, give it a built-in CRU. And have a slightly different icon for objectives with CRUs compared with ones you drop in onto. Seems to me like that would fix the problem. |
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Posted - 2013.09.13 11:39:00 -
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The-Errorist wrote:Funky Chunky wrote:CLONE117 wrote:great idea but just one question..
what if the player forgets to press x? Then you die? I don't understand the question, you have like 5 seconds to realise you're falling. What if you're a heavy with 1200+ HP?
If you somehow fail to realise that you're falling, that isn't my fault. Try not to die. Pressing X would help.
Anyway... something interesting I've noticed. Since 1.4 came out, I've found that I have a LOT more control than I used to while falling. It's rather nice. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.09.13 21:43:00 -
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Mary Sedillo wrote:They tried this in Starhawk.
It didn't work.
You were easy to camp and observant players will know EXACTLY where you are with a sniper rifle or other power weapon fixed on you.
Except that you only have that problem when spawning on the front lines and not aiming for a landing position with cover. It's a calculated risk if you choose to spawn there, just like when you choose to spawn near the front lines now.
Mary Sedillo wrote:Also, the sky spawning idea further alienates Dropships who decide to use MCRUs or people using Logistics Dropships.
-1
And that's an argument that's countered by the fact that spawning on the front lines like this is risky, so you'll want MCRUs for those situations, not to mention the ability to spawn already in a vehicle rather than having to either call one in or get to the vehicle you want. Drop Uplinks let you spawn in enclosed spaces that a sky spawn can't reach, as well as giving players the freedom to set spawn locations ANYWHERE instead of being limited to only the CRUs and designated sky spawn safe zones.
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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.09.16 19:30:00 -
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97 likes to my OP.
10 pages of mostly positive comments with many of the negatives being discussed and resolved in the thread.
0 Dev responses.
I wonder if that last number will change anytime soon? |
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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.11.19 19:11:00 -
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Joel II X wrote:Dropship + Mobile CRU = Sky Spawn
Really? So you're saying that when you have a Dropship with CRU fitted, it makes your objective spawns drop you into the battlefield instead of forcing you to spawn at ground level if you spawn somewhere other than the Dropship?
How come nobody has noticed this effect other than you? |
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Posted - 2013.11.20 19:49:00 -
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Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:It's been over a year since this thread began. 
It's possible I've been here for a while. |
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Posted - 2013.12.03 13:41:00 -
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Kaughst wrote:But it is a horrible idea...Spawning out of the sky either randomly or placed entirely interrupts the flow of combat. To imagine a domination game where the enemy team is spawning on top of the buildings and directly on the objective takes no planning on anyone who would actually do so and there would be no strategic way to defend against it.
Assuming you never read beyond the title of the thread, this is a great point.
Of course, if you actually read the OP, you'd have noticed that attempted argument is countered by my proposal for how the system would work.
You would still have designated spawn locations as you do now. The difference would be that some of your spawn areas allow you to spawn above the battlefield instead of on the ground. You wouldn't be able to randomly sky spawn behind enemy lines without having control of a sky spawn location behind enemy lines (thus making it NOT behind enemy lines). You wouldn't be able to sky spawn on top of an objective unless your team already controls it. Drop Uplinks are described in-game as using wormhole technology, so they wouldn't be sky spawns. CRUs are full of clones, so you can just step out without needing to sky spawn on them. A new structure could be implemented that would be a sky spawning beacon, and they might be able to implement a deployable version of the same tech for player-created sky spawn areas.
The only time where you'd be sky spawning "randomly" would be in Ambush matches where you spawn randomly - now you'd spawn in the air and drop onto the battlefield when using the default spawn option. In one of the patches post-Uprising, they've already increased the amount of control players have while in free-fall, that could do with being increased slightly more. Another suggestion I made later in the thread was to make the Inertia Dampener speed up your fall at the cost of that ability to control your fall direction. By making those changes, CCP would allow for Sky Spawning to be an effective tactical approach.
Add in the fact that some Null Cannon controls are indoors or otherwise protected from above, and there would be a good excuse for an extra set of models - some with a built in wormhole spawning system, and others with sky spawn beacons. |
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Posted - 2013.12.03 20:21:00 -
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It's not just "for effect" though.
Sky Spawning would help with the initial spawn-camping problem, which IS still a problem even with the cloaking we're being given at the moment. In locations where you sky spawn, you would have some measure of control over where you land, and that much extra time to see what you're spawning into.
I'm not going to deny your opinion's merit, but I do find it interesting, and the 100+ likes on the first post suggest that quite a few other people like it as well. |
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Posted - 2013.12.04 08:50:00 -
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It's good to see well-reasoned disagreements in this thread. Finally. THANK YOU!
And do 100 likes prove infallibility? Not even close. I'm not making that claim, because I'm not infallible. What it proves is exactly what I claimed that it proved. It proves that I'm not the only one who likes the idea of Sky SpawningGäó.
There are things you've brought up that I hadn't previously considered in such depth. And to be honest, the spawn cloak, which was added AFTER this thread's creation, has reduced many of the problems this suggestion was meant to combat.
A large part of the reason I still want this is the "cool factor" of actually being able to do what they showed in trailers. And yes, there are balance concerns and those would need to be addressed. But I think that it would be worth the effort, personally. |
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Posted - 2014.03.01 21:59:00 -
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Me too... |
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Posted - 2014.03.04 04:29:00 -
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jaksol returns wrote:I wud like to point out that some objectives are in buildings
I would like to point out that this has already been addressed within the original proposal I made, and referenced multiple times throughout the thread since that point when people have brought the same point up without actually reading the first post.
Objective which are indoors would have CRUs - either built into the objective or nearby. UNCOVERED objectives would become sky spawn locations.
Quote:and that when to hit ground you are vulnerable for a sec or 2 and whalla! free uplinks on buildings! and shotgun camping! not good idea srry
So you get "free" uplinks on buildings, but you're vulnerable for a second or two before you can deploy them, making them not free. And you're seriously worried about people camping on rooftops with SHOTGUNS? Really? Do you even know the range on a Shotgun in DUST? You're lucky to hit a guy on the ground next to you if you're on even a single storey building.
Part of the proposal is to increase the amount of control players have during freefall, so you can shift your landing point by a decent margin when you choose a sky spawn. |
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Posted - 2014.03.07 16:21:00 -
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12 pages and 111 likes to the OP since November 2012 as well... |
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Posted - 2014.05.14 19:05:00 -
[39] - Quote
I'm just going to point out that proper implementation of this system would require draw distance to actually be consistent and a relatively long distance, otherwise the benefit of seeing what you're falling into will be slightly... not really a benefit because it doesn't work. |
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