DUST Search - Playing skill balance for different Weapons (addressing the assault rifle)

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

Zero Harpuia wrote:

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

Sleepy Zan wrote:

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record.

:facepalm:

blatant sarcasm was met with less blatant sarcasm

Regardless I still haven't heard any criticism against the abilities of the AR and its possible deterrent of other viable mid range weapons. A direction in this conversation which I believe was missing and is important.

Well if it's the abilities of the AR, something else we could look into are the skills. The AR skills lower recoil and raise direct damage. Most weapons have a skill that increases damage, but very, very few have both skills direvtly tied to the DPS, as less recoil means more shots hitting the target(assume the AR has recoil for this, m'kay?), as opposed to most other weapons like the Swarm, which has larger explosive radius(seriously, that's the one skill less useful than removing an AR recoil currently), the Sniper, which lowers sway, the Forge, which decreases refire delay, the HMG, which decreases heat, allowing longer bursts, the Laser, also heat, and the Mass Driver, which is explosive radius. The only other guns which get a strict firepower boost are the Pistol, which gets another shot in the clip, the SMG, which gets reduced recoil, and the Nova Knife, which gets reduced cooldowns. All of these are sidearms, which makes the doublebuff seem more reasonable to get them to the level of Light weapons.

Feel free to add this kinda thing to the OP or comment on it, or fix it, it's kittening late here.

First off thanks for putting something in here that is more intelligent. Anyways, when I play I find the recoil reduction skill to be useless considering that the "worst" recoil already is essentially a non factor as it stands. Unless you are suggesting a removal of the damage modification for something else, I believe adding in more base recoil to the weapon is what is needed to make better use of that recoil reduction skill, though I think introducing a moving recoil penalty would be more realistic as normal people can't shoot ARs with accuracy and jog at the same time. Considering that SR can't do it it seems they haven't created the tech to fix this so this would work with current mechanisms.

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Oswald Rehnquist Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 8	Posted - 2012.11.05 05:28:00 - [1] - Quote As with most of you, we've played with many different types of weapons and certain weapons take more skill than others to use (that is a given), and I am interested in identifying the playing skill for those weapons on the basis for establishing weapon balance and for possible introduction for new weapons. To tip my hand a little early I do think assault rifles require thy least amount of skill out of all the other weapons by far and I think some sort of mechanism should be introduced to increase the learning curve (like recoil). I am also interested in the introduction of newer or more abstract weapons (like the laser riffle) which fills similar roles to assault riffles to diversify the mid range weapon selection, because seeing 20th and 21th century weapon designs as the bread and butter for 50%+ of the player base is not the most creative or imaginative scenario. -------------you can skip this part if you already know the ins and outs I"m just reiterating because it will be brought up------------ Skill requirement for weapons (open for criticism as this is based off of my experience) Shotgun- flanking is thy main skill and is relatively difficult to perform on well organized teams, it actually falls into the hands of stealth / dampening oriented characters to be able to pick off the sides and to close the distance before getting killed. So the difficulty lies in teasing/pulling, running, and movement prediction. Medium learning curve Mass driver- aiming is not as intuitive and it is a slow weapon, putting this into similar skill requirements as the shotgun. Medium/high learning curve Forge gun- Difficult to use against against players, medium difficulty against tanks, and high difficulty against dropships (but the only weapon to really take down a skilled pilot). Aiming and charging in/out of cover are the key learning mechanism involved along with infantry avoidance. High/medium difficulty Swarms- Not much to say on this, it takes little skill to use but mainly effective on ground targets, it is the av weapon for the little guys. Low learning curve Pistols- It is stronger than the smg assuming all shots hit. One of the most player skill dependent weapons in the game, very dependent on accuracy (heat shots), can drop everything but heavies in seconds with a good volley. High learning curve SMG- better crowd control and storm capabilities than the pistol, spray and pray is not a difficult technique, this is probably the third easiest weapon to use, but similar to the shotgun it does require flanking if used as a main due to range limitations and recoil, otherwise it makes a good alternative to reloading. Medium/low learning curve HMG- less of a range issues, needs some flanking knowledge as with the smg, limited by game requirements (heavy suits and costs) Low/medium learning curve Sniper rifle- Turkey shoots aren't the most difficult and this weapon is probably the second easiest weapon to use, but laziness and battle mode effect utility. These guys are most likely to cost skirmish games (because usually it is a fall back weapon) if they do not know to move with the battles and be more offensive. Low learning curve Laser rifle- has a minimal and maximum effective range, making spacing a major factor with this weapon, constant fire is important and defense due to the visuals attracting unwanted attention, making this weapon best suited for logis and heavies. Very high learning curve High learning curve Assault rifles- (ha ha I warned you ahead a time right?) no noticeable recoil unlike the smg (different technology?), shoots straight and far (plasma wane over range and objects with mass have recoil) effectively pushes the Sniper rifles effective range to be 300-350+ or else in range of AR. Uses spray and pray like the HMG and SMG, and no troubling game mechanics with aiming Low learning curve ------------------------------------If I missed anything due being tired let me know.--------------------------------------------- Now Mid range weapons are supposed to be the majority because adaptability is one of the biggest assets on the field, so it makes perfect sense for it to dominate. My main criticism with the AR is just the skill requirement is so low, which I think can be modified by making range or recoil trade offs for the AR pending on munitions used. It would also help balance the AR with the LR (which would have range and no recoil) but with the other learning curves as listed above. I personally lean just for adding real recoil because I love the range on the AR. I would also like a third mid range weapon to be introduced to help mix up the most popular weapon range category. Anyways, I hoped I went a little beyond the "wah wah assault rifles" I use them but I wouldn't mind some sort of mechanic which player skill would need to compensate for to increased the learning curve. To diversify the mid range weaponry you will need reasons to go to other mid range weapons. While in my late night delirium, if I failed in constructing proper grammar or cohesive sentences let me know, and I will clarify once I am in a better rested state. Otherwise I am honestly looking for your input.
ReGnUM GODofGODS DEI 80	Posted - 2012.11.05 05:38:00 - [2] - Quote NERF Da AR CCP
Oswald Rehnquist Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 8	Posted - 2012.11.05 05:49:00 - [3] - Quote to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2048	Posted - 2012.11.05 05:50:00 - [4] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record. :facepalm:
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 385	Posted - 2012.11.05 05:51:00 - [5] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record. :facepalm:
KripnawtiQ Prime L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 207	Posted - 2012.11.05 05:59:00 - [6] - Quote I dont understand why this couldnt have been posted in one of the other 50 threads begging for an AR nerf :\
Oswald Rehnquist Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 8	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:01:00 - [7] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record. :facepalm: blatant sarcasm was met with less blatant sarcasm Regardless I still haven't heard any criticism against the abilities of the AR and its possible deterrent of other viable mid range weapons. A direction in this conversation which I believe was missing and is important.
Wako 75 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 76	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:06:00 - [8] - Quote people are used to ar's comeing from other fps's ever thought of that.
Oswald Rehnquist Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 8	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:15:00 - [9] - Quote Wako 75 wrote: people are used to ar's comeing from other fps's ever thought of that. That is a terrible reason to not have other competitive forms of mid range weapons within a sci fi setting. Also unique weapons and alternatives would differentiated dust from "other fps's"
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:21:00 - [10] - Quote I rather everything get buffed up to be options that are aside from the ar.

Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 385	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:23:00 - [11] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather everything get buffed up to be options that are aside from the ar.
Oswald Rehnquist Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 8	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:27:00 - [12] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather everything get buffed up to be options that are aside from the ar. Power/utility is relative to the alternatives, meaning the "buff everything else up" is a silly claim because it is easier to change one variable than to change every other variable. Also I am not advocating any damage changes (I even suggested that range doesn't have to change either), just an introduction of a recoil, and removing recoil from other guns would be going in the opposite direction of what I want and that is player skill and learning curves within the game.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:33:00 - [13] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record. :facepalm: blatant sarcasm was met with less blatant sarcasm Regardless I still haven't heard any criticism against the abilities of the AR and its possible deterrent of other viable mid range weapons. A direction in this conversation which I believe was missing and is important. Well if it's the abilities of the AR, something else we could look into are the skills. The AR skills lower recoil and raise direct damage. Most weapons have a skill that increases damage, but very, very few have both skills direvtly tied to the DPS, as less recoil means more shots hitting the target(assume the AR has recoil for this, m'kay?), as opposed to most other weapons like the Swarm, which has larger explosive radius(seriously, that's the one skill less useful than removing an AR recoil currently), the Sniper, which lowers sway, the Forge, which decreases refire delay, the HMG, which decreases heat, allowing longer bursts, the Laser, also heat, and the Mass Driver, which is explosive radius. The only other guns which get a strict firepower boost are the Pistol, which gets another shot in the clip, the SMG, which gets reduced recoil, and the Nova Knife, which gets reduced cooldowns. All of these are sidearms, which makes the doublebuff seem more reasonable to get them to the level of Light weapons. Feel free to add this kinda thing to the OP or comment on it, or fix it, it's kittening late here.
KripnawtiQ Prime L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 207	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:38:00 - [14] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record. :facepalm: blatant sarcasm was met with less blatant sarcasm Regardless I still haven't heard any criticism against the abilities of the AR and its possible deterrent of other viable mid range weapons. A direction in this conversation which I believe was missing and is important. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=39458&find=unread Thread with 9 pgs of AR discussion...from pg 2 of the forum
Oswald Rehnquist Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 8	Posted - 2012.11.05 06:55:00 - [15] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record. :facepalm: blatant sarcasm was met with less blatant sarcasm Regardless I still haven't heard any criticism against the abilities of the AR and its possible deterrent of other viable mid range weapons. A direction in this conversation which I believe was missing and is important. Well if it's the abilities of the AR, something else we could look into are the skills. The AR skills lower recoil and raise direct damage. Most weapons have a skill that increases damage, but very, very few have both skills direvtly tied to the DPS, as less recoil means more shots hitting the target(assume the AR has recoil for this, m'kay?), as opposed to most other weapons like the Swarm, which has larger explosive radius(seriously, that's the one skill less useful than removing an AR recoil currently), the Sniper, which lowers sway, the Forge, which decreases refire delay, the HMG, which decreases heat, allowing longer bursts, the Laser, also heat, and the Mass Driver, which is explosive radius. The only other guns which get a strict firepower boost are the Pistol, which gets another shot in the clip, the SMG, which gets reduced recoil, and the Nova Knife, which gets reduced cooldowns. All of these are sidearms, which makes the doublebuff seem more reasonable to get them to the level of Light weapons. Feel free to add this kinda thing to the OP or comment on it, or fix it, it's kittening late here. First off thanks for putting something in here that is more intelligent. Anyways, when I play I find the recoil reduction skill to be useless considering that the "worst" recoil already is essentially a non factor as it stands. Unless you are suggesting a removal of the damage modification for something else, I believe adding in more base recoil to the weapon is what is needed to make better use of that recoil reduction skill, though I think introducing a moving recoil penalty would be more realistic as normal people can't shoot ARs with accuracy and jog at the same time. Considering that SR can't do it it seems they haven't created the tech to fix this so this would work with current mechanisms.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.11.05 07:05:00 - [16] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: to turn over regnum to agreeing with adding recoil to AR in one post has to be some sort of record. :facepalm: blatant sarcasm was met with less blatant sarcasm Regardless I still haven't heard any criticism against the abilities of the AR and its possible deterrent of other viable mid range weapons. A direction in this conversation which I believe was missing and is important. Well if it's the abilities of the AR, something else we could look into are the skills. The AR skills lower recoil and raise direct damage. Most weapons have a skill that increases damage, but very, very few have both skills direvtly tied to the DPS, as less recoil means more shots hitting the target(assume the AR has recoil for this, m'kay?), as opposed to most other weapons like the Swarm, which has larger explosive radius(seriously, that's the one skill less useful than removing an AR recoil currently), the Sniper, which lowers sway, the Forge, which decreases refire delay, the HMG, which decreases heat, allowing longer bursts, the Laser, also heat, and the Mass Driver, which is explosive radius. The only other guns which get a strict firepower boost are the Pistol, which gets another shot in the clip, the SMG, which gets reduced recoil, and the Nova Knife, which gets reduced cooldowns. All of these are sidearms, which makes the doublebuff seem more reasonable to get them to the level of Light weapons. Feel free to add this kinda thing to the OP or comment on it, or fix it, it's kittening late here. First off thanks for putting something in here that is more intelligent. Anyways, when I play I find the recoil reduction skill to be useless considering that the "worst" recoil already is essentially a non factor as it stands. Unless you are suggesting a removal of the damage modification for something else, I believe adding in more base recoil to the weapon is what is needed to make better use of that recoil reduction skill, though I think introducing a moving recoil penalty would be more realistic as normal people can't shoot ARs with accuracy and jog at the same time. Considering that SR can't do it it seems they haven't created the tech to fix this so this would work with current mechanisms. What I am saying is, even if the AR gets recoil, it will have a skill to remove the recoil, and within the first week of the build we will be right back here. The skill should do something besides recoil reduction. Exactly what, I'll be the first to say I'm not sure. If we compare, an HMG with lvl 1 skill can do x damage in x amount of time, but will do less due to y bullet spread. HMG with lvl 2 skill will still do x damage in x amount of time, and still lose damage to y bullet spread, but it will be able to continue firing for a bit longer. It doesn't gain DPS, just a longer firing cycle. An AR with lvl 1 skill will do x damage in x amount of time, and it will lose damage to y bullet spread. An AR with lvl 2 skill will do x damage in x amount of time, but it will lose less damage due to (.95)y bullet spread, incresing the DPS. Basically, lowering the recoil rate will make the AR stronger than it is meant to be by removing the factor meant to control its damage output, as we can feel now with the total lack of recoil. Alongside the proficiency skill, which increases the damage of every individual bullet, the AR gets a double buff to DPS. Which is bad. Now, my neck is killing me, so I'm gonna go naow.


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