DUST Search - Remove leaderboards and K/D stat

Joe Darkwater wrote:

I'd like to alter that suggestion to include different categories into Leaderboards like "hacks completed", "Mates revived" etc. in a way no game known to me has done before:

Take all possible ways to recieve any kind of points and sort them into categories. Those categories are then displayed on the leaderboard with the sum of points recieved by performing whatever is in the category.

Some examples:

Best Invaders
- Sucessfully taken over planets
- Number of hacks on mission targets regarding planet takeovers (since there's alot of hacking that has nothing to do with invading or mission targets)
- Number of orbital strikes ordered

Best Teamplay
- Killassists
- hackassists
- ammunition given to other players
- reviving other players
- doing what squad/team commander orders (highly rewarded since this usually doesnt happen)
- repairs done

Best defenders
- Number of hacks on mission targets regarding planet takeovers while on defensive side
- Kills (usually defenders have to decrease the attackers spawning tickets to win, therefore kills fall in this category)
- Damage done personally to invading MCCs (by usuage of tanks or stationary guns)

Best pilots
- tank kills/assist & driving assists
- number of vehicles summoned
- number of vehicles that can be piloted due to skills

going on as you can imagine. What counts into the categories is public. The exact stats at each field are not. The only thing others see is the summed up amount of points in the category. This way EVE Pilots can hire mercs in a far more precise way depending on their needs or making business deals with skilled vehicle pilots for example. Apart from that Mercs can only try to achieve a high rank on the leaderboard by playing wise and with his team.

EDIT:

Maken Tosch wrote:

If you think the DUST leader board promotes cheating, what would you say about the kill boards for Eve online?

www.Eve-kill.net

It does. Have you never seen all those fake killmails? Often kills are so extremely unlikely that I dont even trust that "API checked" writing. Nobody is so stupid to carry around a hundred PLEX and blueprint originals worth of several hundred billion ISK in a noobship through enemy terretory in zero space. Just for sake of someone laughin his ass of at an awesome imaginary kill. Which is the closes thing to cheating eve online allows. Pls dont refer to this further since it get's offtopic otherwise.

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Marcus Chrome Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.10.28 22:14:00 - [1] - Quote Leaderboards promote cheating, there, i said it. K/D stats promote camp-heavy play. People will stop caring about group play and only care about 'not getting killed'. And yes, i believe a K/D stat promotes this kind of play even more so than the economy of Dust does! Both of these things do not belong in a shooter like Dust. One must ask: Have they been implemented because Dust needs them or because other games have them?
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.10.28 22:18:00 - [2] - Quote No. /thread
Marcus Chrome Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.10.28 22:18:00 - [3] - Quote Arguments? Why should they be kept?
NeoprotoD Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 28	Posted - 2012.10.28 22:58:00 - [4] - Quote I disagree with the assertion that they promote cheating. Imo I think they should be kept but shouldn't be the only way a person's FPS worth is measured. Dust should have mechanisms in place that measure # of hacks, # hacks completed, Armor/Shield repaired, # revives and much more.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2012.10.28 23:00:00 - [5] - Quote I've found it best to ignore people that include "/thread" in their responses. You're completely right, but that's true of all leaderboards. Some of the top players are very good and got there honestly and some are garbage. It's good for the legit players to see where they stand, but at the end of the day it doesn't make a difference. People will cheat even if you don't keep score. Once the game goes live and we start fulfilling contracts for EVE players these sorts of things are going to matter less and less. Your ranking will be irrelevant if you can't fulfill contracts and most of the lone wolf and spam tactics currently employed by people will take a back seat to legitimate gameplay.
HEAT SoulRipper ZionTCD Legacy Rising 45	Posted - 2012.10.28 23:03:00 - [6] - Quote NeoprotoD wrote: I disagree with the assertion that they promote cheating. Imo I think they should be kept but shouldn't be the only way a person's FPS worth is measured. Dust should have mechanisms in place that measure # of hacks, # hacks completed, Armor/Shield repaired, # revives and much more. +1000 Would love to see more detailed stat tracking as well.
Sc13nce Geek Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 5	Posted - 2012.10.28 23:14:00 - [7] - Quote NeoprotoD wrote: I disagree with the assertion that they promote cheating. Imo I think they should be kept but shouldn't be the only way a person's FPS worth is measured. Dust should have mechanisms in place that measure # of hacks, # hacks completed, Armor/Shield repaired, # revives and much more. I agree, my gun game leaves something to be desired, but I like to think I'm valuable in other ways (hacks/revives/repair/ammo).
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1594	Posted - 2012.10.28 23:28:00 - [8] - Quote If you think the DUST leader board promotes cheating, what would you say about the kill boards for Eve online? www.Eve-kill.net
Joe Darkwater Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2012.10.28 23:44:00 - [9] - Quote I'd like to alter that suggestion to include different categories into Leaderboards like "hacks completed", "Mates revived" etc. in a way no game known to me has done before: Take all possible ways to recieve any kind of points and sort them into categories. Those categories are then displayed on the leaderboard with the sum of points recieved by performing whatever is in the category. Some examples: Best Invaders - Sucessfully taken over planets - Number of hacks on mission targets regarding planet takeovers (since there's alot of hacking that has nothing to do with invading or mission targets) - Number of orbital strikes ordered Best Teamplay - Killassists - hackassists - ammunition given to other players - reviving other players - doing what squad/team commander orders (highly rewarded since this usually doesnt happen) - repairs done Best defenders - Number of hacks on mission targets regarding planet takeovers while on defensive side - Kills (usually defenders have to decrease the attackers spawning tickets to win, therefore kills fall in this category) - Damage done personally to invading MCCs (by usuage of tanks or stationary guns) Best pilots - tank kills/assist & driving assists - number of vehicles summoned - number of vehicles that can be piloted due to skills going on as you can imagine. What counts into the categories is public. The exact stats at each field are not. The only thing others see is the summed up amount of points in the category. This way EVE Pilots can hire mercs in a far more precise way depending on their needs or making business deals with skilled vehicle pilots for example. Apart from that Mercs can only try to achieve a high rank on the leaderboard by playing wise and with his team. EDIT: Maken Tosch wrote: If you think the DUST leader board promotes cheating, what would you say about the kill boards for Eve online? www.Eve-kill.net It does. Have you never seen all those fake killmails? Often kills are so extremely unlikely that I dont even trust that "API checked" writing. Nobody is so stupid to carry around a hundred PLEX and blueprint originals worth of several hundred billion ISK in a noobship through enemy terretory in zero space. Just for sake of someone laughin his ass of at an awesome imaginary kill. Which is the closes thing to cheating eve online allows. Pls dont refer to this further since it get's offtopic otherwise.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2012.10.28 23:53:00 - [10] - Quote Joe Darkwater wrote: It does. Have you never seen all those fake killmails? Often kills are so extremely unlikely that I dont even trust that "API checked" writing. Nobody is so stupid to carry around a hundred PLEX and blueprint originals worth of several hundred billion ISK in a noobship through enemy terretory in zero space. Just for sake of someone laughin his ass of at an awesome imaginary kill. Which is the closes thing to cheating eve online allows. Pls dont refer to this further since it get's offtopic otherwise. That one kill with all the PLEX I think did actually happen, but I might be mistaken. As for the hundreds of billions in blueprints the value has been declining steadily I guess as BPO's are sorted from BPC's. Last time I looked at it the amount lost was a couple billion, which I actually can believe.

NeoprotoD Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 28	Posted - 2012.10.29 00:16:00 - [11] - Quote That's the kind of stuff I was thinking about Joe. Also while I don't disagree with the leaderboard if they're going to make k/d public they should also make at least a few other stats public. Either that or make everything completely private. That way you won't focus so much on being better than the other guy at one particular thing (k/d for most people) but rather just try to be the best you can be and make sure your corp achieves it's objectives. War Points would be a good all around indicator if it was more fair and tracked more than it currently does.
GaGe AsSeBrKr Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 54	Posted - 2012.10.29 00:23:00 - [12] - Quote Would have been awesome to see a category for repairs done, so we could name and shame the pecker heads that exploited repairing until it was nerfed.
Joe Darkwater Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2012.10.29 03:51:00 - [13] - Quote GaGe AsSeBrKr wrote: Would have been awesome to see a category for repairs done, so we could name and shame the pecker heads that exploited repairing until it was nerfed. added to my list above
Marcus Chrome Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.10.29 08:34:00 - [14] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: If you think the DUST leader board promotes cheating, what would you say about the kill boards for Eve online? www.Eve-kill.net There are no official killboards, just player-run ones (and a lot of them). Even to the people who post on them they don't matter that much. The Dust leaderboard however is official and central, there's only one for all players. Naturally people want to be up as high as possible on it. NeoprotoD wrote: I disagree with the assertion that they promote cheating. Imo I think they should be kept but shouldn't be the only way a person's FPS worth is measured. Dust should have mechanisms in place that measure # of hacks, # hacks completed, Armor/Shield repaired, # revives and much more. They don't necessarily "just" promote cheating, they promote 'bad playstyles'. With only kills and deaths tracked such a leaderboard promotes people to be as useless to their team as possible, camping far away to get easy kills and die as little as possible. This is exactly what happens in 80% of all Battlefield matches aswell, it's hard to find a decent team-oriented player on a public server there and i'm 100% sure the situation will be exactly the same over here. Since you get a decent amount of SP and isk even if your team loses, there is simply very little to no incentive for people to play the game as it was intended. imho, isk rewards for winning should be higher so that people are willing to risk their stuff more often.
Timothy Reaper ZionTCD Legacy Rising 321	Posted - 2012.10.29 08:51:00 - [15] - Quote The leaderboards already include Warpoints and a Win/Loss ratio. And your place on the scoreboard at the end of a match is determined by Warpoints.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.10.29 09:34:00 - [16] - Quote HEAT SoulRipper wrote: NeoprotoD wrote: I disagree with the assertion that they promote cheating. Imo I think they should be kept but shouldn't be the only way a person's FPS worth is measured. Dust should have mechanisms in place that measure # of hacks, # hacks completed, Armor/Shield repaired, # revives and much more. +1000 Would love to see more detailed stat tracking as well. ^This Don''t remove the post match details we already have, add more. At a certain level of detail the stats start to reflect your presence or 'footprint' in the match and allow you to adapt and improve your playstyle. Limited information can be distortion yes, if someone doesn't understand it's limits or care about glory more than their team. Detailed information bypasses this drawback and also requires the glory hound to contribute more if he's really set on getting the space in the "lime light'. I can't wait for the Dust API to become accessible so we can start to see some player driven sites churning through the available data. But even when that happens I hope to see more of it presented to us in game. 0.02 ISK Cross
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2012.10.29 10:01:00 - [17] - Quote op is completely missing the point of this beta - we are here to find exploits and bugs, if the leader boards are (As you say) promotes cheating, then we need more leaderboards!
Lion Redstar ZionTCD Legacy Rising 66	Posted - 2012.10.29 10:05:00 - [18] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: HEAT SoulRipper wrote: NeoprotoD wrote: I disagree with the assertion that they promote cheating. Imo I think they should be kept but shouldn't be the only way a person's FPS worth is measured. Dust should have mechanisms in place that measure # of hacks, # hacks completed, Armor/Shield repaired, # revives and much more. +1000 Would love to see more detailed stat tracking as well. ^This Don''t remove the post match details we already have, add more. At a certain level of detail the stats start to reflect your presence or 'footprint' in the match and allow you to adapt and improve your playstyle. Limited information can be distortion yes, if someone doesn't understand it's limits or care about glory more than their team. Detailed information bypasses this drawback and also requires the glory hound to contribute more if he's really set on getting the space in the "lime light'. I can't wait for the Dust API to become accessible so we can start to see some player driven sites churning through the available data. But even when that happens I hope to see more of it presented to us in game. 0.02 ISK Cross Amen brother ! I was in a team last night and one of the guys said to another after looking over the contacts KB "hey, you only have 75 kills??!!?". He was a logi. And a damn good one.
Onar Kion Dark Horizon Industries 26	Posted - 2012.10.29 10:20:00 - [19] - Quote I'm not a fan of kill boards, or any kind of ranking boards in games. I always die more then I kill, oh well. I would like to see a War Board, for factional warfare to tell us how we are doing as against our enemies, or against Sansha.
Marcus Chrome Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.11.01 10:20:00 - [20] - Quote Captain-Awesome wrote: op is completely missing the point of this beta - we are here to find exploits and bugs, if the leader boards are (As you say) promotes cheating, then we need more leaderboards! To be honest, i fail to see the point of a beta if i'm not allowed to comment on features i believe are unnecessary or harmful to the game ;p I still want to know why a leaderboard was included. Was it included because it was judged to be beneficial to Dust 514, or was it included just because other games have one? If it was included just because of that last argument, i argue that it's a bad decision. Dust is not like other shooters, trying to make it like a Call of duty of a Battlefield was never the intent of CCP (or so i was led to believe), so the inclusion of a leaderboard just to seem competitive would feel like a misguided decision. I can't really think of any good arguments to include a leaderboard in Dust. It promotes individual e-peening over proper teamplay since people start to care about having good stats rather than having fun and working as a team. This is a problem that shows up in CoD and BF aswell by the way (where i feel leaderboards and stats are also somewhat out of proportion in terms of their impact on styles of play) and in a shooter like Dust, where teamplay is even more essential since you can actually lose equipment and vehicles permanently when destroyed in any match - Promoting individual stats seems like the wrong thing to do. CCP, can you please give me some insight in the thought process that went on to include leaderboards/stats?

Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.11.01 11:07:00 - [21] - Quote How will eve corps know if they can trust a particular corp with a contract without stat tracking and leaderboards?
Marcus Chrome Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.11.01 14:21:00 - [22] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: How will eve corps know if they can trust a particular corp with a contract without stat tracking and leaderboards? Because the results will be obvious - Did the planets get conquered or not? Whether or not you've won can be seen without needing stats, you just open the map in EVE and check whom the planet belongs to, depending on whether you can check where they operated (i assume this can be done just like sov changes are done currently in the api). Just like you check it for similar activities in EVE itself, actually. Is that one merc corp effective? what have they done recently? What effect has it had on their target and client? These kinds of things are almost immediately obvious. You did bring up a pretty interesting point: You want to know the stats of a corp, not an individual player. This i would agree on being useful for Dust since this heavily promotes teamplay. Abolish individual ladders and introduce corp ladders! Average winrate, history of hired matches and average stats across all members involved in the matches (no stats per individual player). Public matches should not be counted in these stats for obvious reasons (using pubstomps to farm ranks). It's possible that the system can be abused lightly by arranging matches within EVE, though given the volatile and dangerous nature of EVE space it's something like that likely will never last for very long. I don't know how stats would be tracked for individuals without promoting 'gaming the game'. Personally, i could do without stats since public servers aren't exactly a good measure for them anyway (again, harking back to CoD and BF where metagaming the stats is far too easy purely because you can play on public servers).
Tyrael Valdare Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2012.11.01 18:22:00 - [23] - Quote I also think that just the fact that K/D/R stats are in the game affects people's playstyle. By removing them, alot of players may be more inclined to step out of their comfort zone and try new things without worrying (or obsessing) about their stats. As it is now, people stick to what they know for fear of adversely affecting their ratio. Since this game will be F2P the vast majority of players will likely be casuals who jump on for a bit now and then. Noone wants to try a new game and see that they went 1/13 thrown in their face. If all they saw was that they earned 200 WP they might feel like they contributed in some way and give the game another shot. The more people that continue to play, be they hardcore or casual, the better for everyone. Since kills contribute to WP it really makes kills irrelevant. As long as the WP system is balanced to provide equal rewards for various actions and playstyles it's the only end of match stat needed. K/D/R stats are unnecessary in Dust514 and the game could benefit from their removal. Having them only reinforces the typical FPS stereotype that K/D/R is all that matters and that is simply not true here. If CCP wants to make a new and innovative type of FPS they could try it without K/D/R stats. I think it would be refreshing to play without any concerns about these stats. You are an immortal mercenary. The number of times you've died is irrelevant and should not matter. What should matter most is your wallet. Death Is Obsolete!
Hobos-N-Guns Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire 44	Posted - 2012.11.01 18:38:00 - [24] - Quote Joe Darkwater wrote: I'd like to alter that suggestion to include different categories into Leaderboards like "hacks completed", "Mates revived" etc. in a way no game known to me has done before: Take all possible ways to recieve any kind of points and sort them into categories. Those categories are then displayed on the leaderboard with the sum of points recieved by performing whatever is in the category. Some examples: Best Invaders - Sucessfully taken over planets - Number of hacks on mission targets regarding planet takeovers (since there's alot of hacking that has nothing to do with invading or mission targets) - Number of orbital strikes ordered Best Teamplay - Killassists - hackassists - ammunition given to other players - reviving other players - doing what squad/team commander orders (highly rewarded since this usually doesnt happen) - repairs done Best defenders - Number of hacks on mission targets regarding planet takeovers while on defensive side - Kills (usually defenders have to decrease the attackers spawning tickets to win, therefore kills fall in this category) - Damage done personally to invading MCCs (by usuage of tanks or stationary guns) Best pilots - tank kills/assist & driving assists - number of vehicles summoned - number of vehicles that can be piloted due to skills going on as you can imagine. What counts into the categories is public. The exact stats at each field are not. The only thing others see is the summed up amount of points in the category. This way EVE Pilots can hire mercs in a far more precise way depending on their needs or making business deals with skilled vehicle pilots for example. Apart from that Mercs can only try to achieve a high rank on the leaderboard by playing wise and with his team. EDIT: Maken Tosch wrote: If you think the DUST leader board promotes cheating, what would you say about the kill boards for Eve online? www.Eve-kill.net It does. Have you never seen all those fake killmails? Often kills are so extremely unlikely that I dont even trust that "API checked" writing. Nobody is so stupid to carry around a hundred PLEX and blueprint originals worth of several hundred billion ISK in a noobship through enemy terretory in zero space. Just for sake of someone laughin his ass of at an awesome imaginary kill. Which is the closes thing to cheating eve online allows. Pls dont refer to this further since it get's offtopic otherwise. Eve Online keeps track of and posts official kill mails so they cannot be tampered with. And yes there are people dumb enough to carry plex's, bpo / bpc into null sec.
Joe Darkwater Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2012.11.02 00:01:00 - [25] - Quote Hobos-N-Guns wrote: LONG QUOTE FROM ME, JOE Eve Online keeps track of and posts official kill mails so they cannot be tampered with. And yes there are people dumb enough to carry plex's, bpo / bpc into null sec. Eve Online doesnt do anything like that. You can temper with the mails the way you like. Eve-kill.net might consider those tinkerings. Not sure but there are hundrets of thousands of Killboards that dont do so and even eve-kill wasnt fake proof all the time. But thats not the point. Much more interesting is: You quote my entire post including a pretty neat Idea and the only thing you are referring to is killmails??!?
Marcus Chrome Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.11.02 00:43:00 - [26] - Quote Joe Darkwater wrote: Hobos-N-Guns wrote: LONG QUOTE FROM ME, JOE Eve Online keeps track of and posts official kill mails so they cannot be tampered with. And yes there are people dumb enough to carry plex's, bpo / bpc into null sec. Eve Online doesnt do anything like that. You can temper with the mails the way you like. Eve-kill.net might consider those tinkerings. Not sure but there are hundrets of thousands of Killboards that dont do so and even eve-kill wasnt fake proof all the time. But thats not the point. Much more interesting is: You quote my entire post including a pretty neat Idea and the only thing you are referring to is killmails??!? Killmails can be API verified. Nowadays, if they're not verified, they're certified fakes.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.11.02 03:06:00 - [27] - Quote Free Beers wrote: No. /thread And everyone's favorite opinionated forum king steps in again. On the topic of the OP, I would personally shed no tears to see the Leaderboard removed. As far as the K/D stat, that actually makes sense to have, as it speaks to the efficiency of the player, which could be essential when trying to get hired to a Corp.
Marcus Chrome Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.11.02 09:23:00 - [28] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Free Beers wrote: No. /thread And everyone's favorite opinionated forum king steps in again. On the topic of the OP, I would personally shed no tears to see the Leaderboard removed. As far as the K/D stat, that actually makes sense to have, as it speaks to the efficiency of the player, which could be essential when trying to get hired to a Corp. If you want to apply to a corp i'd say that tryouts are a far better idea. As i said before, you can game the stats and get to a point where you have a 10/1 KDR by camping in a corner of the map all day long, but you don't want those people in your corp would you? :P
Radioship Algintal Core Gallente Federation 57	Posted - 2012.11.02 09:42:00 - [29] - Quote IMHO: Adding additional information about K/D stats is needed, for example: - Lifetime K/D (Private) - Last 30 days K/D (Public)
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.11.02 12:06:00 - [30] - Quote Ideas for additional stats (quoted from another thread) Cross Atu wrote: Please also add a breakdown of WP sources. It could be in % or raw WP totals. Commission (from squad orders) Kills Kill Assists Instillation/Vehicle Destruction Hacks (includes hack assists) Support (Repairing, Nano Hives, Revives, Uplinks) Being able to improve on your game depends upon identifying your strong and weak points within the match, correlating those with your battlefield role that round and adapting your skills/fits/play style accordingly. 0.02 ISK Cross



Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page