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Liquid Big Boss
Rebelles A Quebec
58
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Posted - 2012.10.21 14:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Oh ****, since the transfert isk from eve player work, i can see a lot more dropship and tanks making the rules on the map. It's almost like they are infinit isk to pay there stuff with these transfert. So they don't care if they lose them becuz they know it easy to get a another one.
I really start to think that the connection between this two game is not good for normal people who don't really care about alliance.
There should be a way to fix this, limit tank & dropship spawn by game?
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Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
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Posted - 2012.10.21 14:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is why it was too SOON(tm) to make the money bridge between the two games passable. Why we need to take small steps and not get goofy on free ISK.
But also why Dust will be unique beyond measure.
The whole point of the Dust (besides giving us the chance to shoot folks and take over parts of planets) is to open up a player run economy that spans two games and two platforms.
This connection is good for normal people, because we could use some innovation in our lives. Don't be scared, normal people. There is a whole universe out there just waiting for you. A universe made out of money.
*Edit: maybe I should clarify that by "this" I mean this thread. Not the sudden influx of gear, but the subsequent fear and trembling and posts about how the average gamer might run away. I do not believe in the "average" or "normal" gamer. Really. |
Cortez The Killer
Immobile Infantry
187
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Posted - 2012.10.21 14:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
If you aren't interested in joining a corporation that has ties to Eve and the income that it generates, the fix is to stay with the PvE content Dust is supposed to have. The whole game isn't going to be changed because a few "normal" people choose to disengage from the whole point of why the game was created and developed.
This particular burst of ISK was a fluke and I'm sure it will get worked out after AV guys have a little time going apesh** on all the vehicle spawn, but eventually large sums of permanent ISK will hit Dust. Deal wiz it. Better yet, grab a forge gun and join the party. |
lordjanuz
Norwegian Dust514 Corporation
88
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Posted - 2012.10.21 15:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
but eventually large sums of permanent ISK will hit Dust. Deal wiz it. Better yet, grab a forge gun and join the party.
Yes this is true, its a part of the merging between Dust and EVE this was also stated on fanfest, but in the right time. We have the same in EVE, some use a lot of isk on Titans and Motherships, but they still loose them. If this would not be possible the whole gameplay would be lost. Dust514+EVE merging =true if not, this is not the game we have been promissed.
I dont see the problem, I still like my millitia equipment. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.21 15:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
lordjanuz wrote: but eventually large sums of permanent ISK will hit Dust. Deal wiz it. Better yet, grab a forge gun and join the party.
Yes this is true, its a part of the merging between Dust and EVE this was also stated on fanfest, but in the right time. We have the same in EVE, some use a lot of isk on Titans and Motherships, but they still loose them. If this would not be possible the whole gameplay would be lost. Dust514+EVE merging =true if not, this is not the game we have been promissed.
I dont see the problem, I still like my millitia equipment. I'm with this guy. I've lost 10 tanks since yesterday morning, and they were all blown up by enemy players. Keeping in mind how ISK gain works, that means I just gave several enemy teams a shitload of ISK while having fun in my tank. Its only a Soma, so losing it doesn't hurt me much, and like I already said, killing it benefits the enemy team.
Also, this really shows the issue of having vehicles that require no skill training to use. LAVs are fine, but being able to drive a tank with no skill invested is starting to look pretty dumb, isn't it? In EVE, if I had 1 billion ISK given to me when I first started, I would have felt rich as hell, but had nothing to spend it on but Frigates. This game has most abilities and assets tied to skills, so having a lot of ISK honestly wouldn't give you any advantage at all if it weren't for the ability to use vehicles with no training. |
Captain-Awesome
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
349
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Posted - 2012.10.21 15:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
love how you guys jump the gun. SiSi for eve has infinite funds. it's a fricken test server. They do this to test different scenarios and in this case it's the link between eve and dust, eve has a stronger economy than dust and thus they need to look at how to make a balance between a stronger and weaker economy. |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
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Posted - 2012.10.21 15:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:
Also, this really shows the issue of having vehicles that require no skill training to use. LAVs are fine, but being able to drive a tank with no skill invested is starting to look pretty dumb, isn't it? In EVE, if I had 1 billion ISK given to me when I first started, I would have felt rich as hell, but had nothing to spend it on but Frigates. This game has most abilities and assets tied to skills, so having a lot of ISK honestly wouldn't give you any advantage at all if it weren't for the ability to use vehicles with no training.
If I think back to E3 when all militia vehicles were FREE, it was more of a field day with av grenades and swarm launchers vs. the militia fits. Until people started improving them with modules, and skilling up to better them.
A militia tank with no support SP behind it is still going to be very squishy and not a problem for the starter anti-armor fitting. Especially now that they aren't stuck on a heavy suit and you can sort of move around with the swarm launcher... |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Captain-Awesome wrote:love how you guys jump the gun. SiSi for eve has infinite funds. it's a fricken test server. They do this to test different scenarios and in this case it's the link between eve and dust, eve has a stronger economy than dust and thus they need to look at how to make a balance between a stronger and weaker economy. Right you are. When this game goes live, you won't see this happening because ISK has actual value. After spending 2 years in Providence, I can tell you that most of the rich people in EVE are terrible PvPers, and I doubt they'll be any better in this game. Consider such players a free source of skillpoints and ISK, because they won't be a threat no matter what they bring onto the field. Besides, unlike Planetside 2, zerging tanks has the potential to tear through a billion ISK faster than getting your faction battleship blapped, so you can expect the spending to be far more conservative. Or, you can expect to see several EVE alliance go bankrupt thanks to your good teamwork, so you win either way.
Aighun wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:
Also, this really shows the issue of having vehicles that require no skill training to use. LAVs are fine, but being able to drive a tank with no skill invested is starting to look pretty dumb, isn't it? In EVE, if I had 1 billion ISK given to me when I first started, I would have felt rich as hell, but had nothing to spend it on but Frigates. This game has most abilities and assets tied to skills, so having a lot of ISK honestly wouldn't give you any advantage at all if it weren't for the ability to use vehicles with no training.
If I think back to E3 when all militia vehicles were FREE, it was more of a field day with av grenades and swarm launchers vs. the militia fits. Until people started improving them with modules, and skilling up to better them. A militia tank with no support SP behind it is still going to be very squishy and not a problem for the starter anti-armor fitting. Especially now that they aren't stuck on a heavy suit and you can sort of move around with the swarm launcher... The issue is that it doesn't take much backup skill before you get a Soma like mine, which tears straight through other ones and can eat swarm volleys and forge guns while repping the damage right back off. My active scanner also reveals anyone close enough for AV grenades and allows my frag-missile turrets to gun them down before they can even throw. |
Liquid Big Boss
Rebelles A Quebec
58
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Posted - 2012.10.21 15:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cortez The Killer wrote: If you aren't interested in joining a corporation that has ties to Eve and the income that it generates, the fix is to stay with the PvE content Dust is supposed to have. The whole game isn't going to be changed because a few "normal" people choose to disengage from the whole point of why the game was created and developed.
This particular burst of ISK was a fluke and I'm sure it will get worked out after AV guys have a little time going apesh** on all the vehicle spawn, but eventually large sums of permanent ISK will hit Dust. Deal wiz it. Better yet, grab a forge gun and join the party.
oh didn't know about the PVE thing, it's a good news for me!
Well i take my patience and boost my swarm to kill those tanks |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Liquid Big Boss wrote:Cortez The Killer wrote: If you aren't interested in joining a corporation that has ties to Eve and the income that it generates, the fix is to stay with the PvE content Dust is supposed to have. The whole game isn't going to be changed because a few "normal" people choose to disengage from the whole point of why the game was created and developed.
This particular burst of ISK was a fluke and I'm sure it will get worked out after AV guys have a little time going apesh** on all the vehicle spawn, but eventually large sums of permanent ISK will hit Dust. Deal wiz it. Better yet, grab a forge gun and join the party. oh didn't know about the PVE thing, it's a good news for me! Well i take my patience and boost my swarm to kill those tanks Exactly. And make sure you kill my tank if you see it for massive SP and ISK, just out of the kindness of my heart. |
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Riot Ruckus
Doomheim
56
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Posted - 2012.10.21 15:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cortez The Killer wrote: If you aren't interested in joining a corporation that has ties to Eve and the income that it generates, the fix is to stay with the PvE content Dust is supposed to have. The whole game isn't going to be changed because a few "normal" people choose to disengage from the whole point of why the game was created and developed.
This particular burst of ISK was a fluke and I'm sure it will get worked out after AV guys have a little time going apesh** on all the vehicle spawn, but eventually large sums of permanent ISK will hit Dust. Deal wiz it. Better yet, grab a forge gun and join the party.
DJINN Riot approves this message. |
crazy space
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
879
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 17:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
whats stopping you from making friends in eve to give you money. Your gear is cheap and there will most likley be a limit on how much money you can send a week or so.
It will most likely not be isk, but tanks and weapons the eve players will send us.
Listen, it's not that big of a deal. Plus they might be changing the price scale in dust |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
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Posted - 2012.10.21 18:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
isk transfer debate is only a big thing in the beta.. as at the moment, those isk are only virtual and can be wasted without being a big deal. later, when game id final and isk persistent for good, no matter how deep your pockets are, no corp will wzste more isk on a battle than what it can get back out of it.
using 11 hav. ds and plenty of proto stuff on a high sec contract that will earn 1m ? no. on a battle for owning a planet that can earn millions per day through production ? yes. even more , it must happend to fuel the economics.
also it will help in having different "levels" in corp battle. |
lordjanuz
Norwegian Dust514 Corporation
88
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Posted - 2012.10.21 20:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:isk transfer debate is only a big thing in the beta.. as at the moment, those isk are only virtual and can be wasted without being a big deal. later, when game id final and isk persistent for good, no matter how deep your pockets are, no corp will wzste more isk on a battle than what it can get back out of it.
using 11 hav. ds and plenty of proto stuff on a high sec contract that will earn 1m ? no. on a battle for owning a planet that can earn millions per day through production ? yes. even more , it must happend to fuel the economics.
also it will help in having different "levels" in corp battle.
No I would not like different level, one level one game one sandbox. |
Heinz Doofenshertz
BetaMax.
360
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Posted - 2012.10.21 20:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
rule 2 of New Eden, Adapt or Die. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 21:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
@Heinz Rules in new Eden? :P
@Infinate ISK problem There are players and corps in EvE who really don't give a crap about 0.0, conquest or making people rage quit. The only one I can think of is RedVsBlue. We've not heard much from these EvE corps. RvB blow up a massive % of ships, and someone also said they don't pod kill either. Meaning they could double their stats. I think every EvE player will be easily able to support a small band of Mercs. Perhaps not as lavish fittings as others, but easily enough for important battles/wars. This tournament is going to be quite silly anyway, so broken ISK shouldn't matter.
Side note: the idea you are redistributing wealth to the other team by losing your tank is complete tosh. Join a game with 80-80 00:00timer 20-30k ISK. I do bad for a game 4/6 say, 70k. Do well and it's 100-120k. I blow up 2 tanks with forge gun/av getting 6 kills, then run about killing everything with assault gear? 120-150k. A couple of these tanks have been real beasts. I don't think anyone really understands how ISK is calculated after a match. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2012.10.21 21:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:isk transfer debate is only a big thing in the beta.. as at the moment, those isk are only virtual and can be wasted without being a big deal. later, when game id final and isk persistent for good, no matter how deep your pockets are, no corp will wzste more isk on a battle than what it can get back out of it.
This is 100% incorrect. A lot of EVE players have billions lying around they have no desperate need for. You can make many millions in one hour of ratting/mining in EVE. It'd be no big deal to just get a couple EVE guys to crank out a billion or two. The end result is that people no longer care about ISK. People won't even care about the cost to take a contract. One million? Ten? It's pocket change. Not even that. I know I wouldn't bat an eye at losing many millions on a Dust match, because being able to roll infinite top-tier tanks/dropsuits/whatever is fun, and who cares about losing space bux if it means having a good time blowing up an enemy team and good?
Heinz Doofenshertz wrote:rule 2 of New Eden, Adapt or Die.
I look forward to the day when Dust is left with a handful of EVE players playing, no non-EVE players to be seen, and we all have our "adapt or die"'s ready for when a foolish new player comes along expecting a sensibly designed game that doesn't put the arbitrary requirement that you be a player of some other game before getting into Dust.
crazy space wrote:whats stopping you from making friends in eve to give you money. Your gear is cheap and there will most likley be a limit on how much money you can send a week or so.
Yeah man, the solution to this issue is for everyone who came here expecting to play a console FPS game to go and start playing a PC MMORPG and beg in empire space for people to give them the millions/billions they'd need to compete with established EVE players able to bankroll themselves/their entire corp. That is the answer to this, alright. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 23:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dust will, in the course of things, have its own ways of earning ISK. That means that you could play eve and make "millions in an hour", or you could play Dust and make "millions in an hour". It will all depend on the activity you choose.
What does this mean? It means that even IF there was no link between EVE and Dust, the newer Dust players would still be the poorest of the poor compared to how much other Dust players can earn.
In other words, in the long run the EVE link won't make a difference to new players needing a hand.
Now, I don't know exactly how CCP is going to balance these things. From the snippets I've heard we can expect the new player experience to not be terrible for a few reasons: * NPC battles - play against NPC's rather than players, whose gear is appropriate * Matchmaking - Ability to play against similarly equipped and skilled players (this requires more players, but we are in beta) * Friends - EVE itself is all about forming friendships and winning together. Do the same in Dust - join a corp, get a leg up over the newbies that don't. And corporations is where the Dust players will make their isk, from what I understand - controlling planetary facilities and winning corp contracts
So to summarise: The EVE link won't be the problem any more than how Dust would be if it were a standalone product, AND there are things being implemented to ensure the new player can get a good game in.
Final note: As others have mentioned, ISK on Sisi means nothing. The people who have received ISK from Sisi have no reason to value it at all. I think some people who play Dust are a little unclear on this point - Dust is now linked to EVE, but it's linked to the EVE test server, not live server. That's why you only on the very rare occasion see a player in local. When it's linked to live server, you will frequently (perhaps always) see EVE players in local. |
GaGe AsSeBrKr
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
54
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Posted - 2012.10.21 23:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
awesome. So if my Eve guy grinding anomalies makes 50-60m isk in an hour, that basically pays for me to welp expensive stuff all day? |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
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Posted - 2012.10.21 23:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
GaGe AsSeBrKr wrote:awesome. So if my Eve guy grinding anomalies makes 50-60m isk in an hour, that basically pays for me to welp expensive stuff all day?
I guess so. Or you could make that ISK with your dust char instead, once they've implemented the stuff they intend to. |
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Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 23:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Liquid Big Boss wrote:Oh ****, since the transfert isk from eve player work, i can see a lot more dropship and tanks making the rules on the map. It's almost like they are infinit isk to pay there stuff with these transfert. So they don't care if they lose them becuz they know it easy to get a another one.
I really start to think that the connection between this two game is not good for normal people who don't really care about alliance.
There should be a way to fix this, limit tank & dropship spawn by game?
welcome to the real dust.
this is how the game is supposed to be played. the petty isk you are getting from these dumb find battle isn't real isk.
the EVE players make the rules, not dust bunnies |
Crimson Moon V
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
184
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Posted - 2012.10.22 00:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
I honestly don't know how I feel on this issue. If you are good at dust, corps will throw isk at you. On the other hand free isk sounds like it could kill incentive to play a bit.
Free isk for the beta stages will help for testing though. There is no reason to freak out. I think they should turn up sp earned so we can test everything too. By the time people start getting gear there will be another wipe. |
Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
36
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Posted - 2012.10.22 00:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Even 1M ISK isn't gonna last long on Dust, especially if you're using HAVs or prototype suits. It's still too early to really judge though. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 00:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Noel Bellamy wrote:Even 1M ISK isn't gonna last long on Dust, especially if you're using HAVs or prototype suits. It's still too early to really judge though. the dust players get the isk from eve players.
dust isn't a faucet of isk at all, it's actually a sponge and if they don't make planetary management any better dust will die because eve players will not put in the isk to take planets because the reward will not be worth it. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
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Posted - 2012.10.22 02:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
Necrodermis wrote: dust isn't a faucet of isk at all, it's actually a sponge and if they don't make planetary management any better dust will die because eve players will not put in the isk to take planets because the reward will not be worth it.
I'm pretty sure that their intention is to have the Dust planetary facilities be different to the EVE ones in some way. That is, make it actually worth controlling them and fighting for them. And the Dust players will do this on their own because *they* can control it without any need for EVE players.
The beta does not represent anywhere near the full economy power of the final game. The question is just how soon it will take for that to be implemented. |
LD Desire
1
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Posted - 2012.10.22 03:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
My inactive eve account has 16bill sat on it my corp is e-rich from w/hole and incursion whoring. Also the average cost of a t2 fit frigate (which is completly throw Way) could pay for a whole dust battle at the moment, never mind an ordinary every day Bs which are welped in their hundreds every day in eve pvp, the average dust non-eve player has no idea how much isk eve players who have played a while have at their disposal |
Ansikt
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.10.22 05:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
If this game gets a playerbase similar to other AAA titles, even the rich corporations won't be able to bankroll everyone, indefinitely. My feeling is that once this game gets off the ground you'll have two options: get on a corporate salary and kill other corp members, or; be a public player and kill other pubbies with your pubby guns.
In short, once this game hits release you won't see the weird disparities you see here where a few wealthy players are burning though public Dust lobbies with a corp-bought kit. It is also for this reason that I think any kind of cap on ISK transfers would be absolutely against the entire spirit of EVE, and by extension, Dust 514. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 05:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Winsaucerer wrote: I'm pretty sure that their intention is to have the Dust planetary facilities be different to the EVE ones in some way. That is, make it actually worth controlling them and fighting for them. And the Dust players will do this on their own because *they* can control it without any need for EVE players.
The beta does not represent anywhere near the full economy power of the final game. The question is just how soon it will take for that to be implemented.
i don't know why everyone thinks the dust players are going to be the ones controlling everything.
a pocket dust corp will have unlimited funds and they can roll over any and all non-EVE capsuleer affiliated corps. they will be able to erect faster production, larger facilities and pump out even more isk because they will have the funds to do so.
they are in one universe not two separate universe with a small membrane between the two. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
437
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 08:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
LD Desire wrote:My inactive eve account has 16bill sat on it my corp is e-rich from w/hole and incursion whoring. Also the average cost of a t2 fit frigate (which is completly throw Way) could pay for a whole dust battle at the moment, never mind an ordinary every day Bs which are welped in their hundreds every day in eve pvp, the average dust non-eve player has no idea how much isk eve players who have played a while have at their disposal 16 billion is e-poor, not e-rich.
And yes, I'll be splerging my ISK on lol-fits. |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.10.22 09:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
lol mlita tanks = free kills |
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