DUST Search - Balance discussion. Please bring your mature mindset.

Mobius Wyvern wrote:

Zero Harpuia wrote:

Mobius Wyvern wrote:

Hell, I find this intriguing just from the standpoint of seeing the effects. You should keep in mind, however, that the ARs in this game are far more restrictive than in some others. Hell, there's one for each role, and they don't even have select-fire options.

True about the select-fire option, and that feeds off the specialization feel that is one of the cores of EVE... but I can't help but feel that trigger discipline makes much of that an afterthought. It doesn't matter how restrictive the ARs are or are not, they are the healthy majority of the guns being used, and as you said, the effect of temporarily removing them would be amazing to watch. With the players not auto-gravitating toward the golden standard of FPSing, we could see what other trends develop, what is in imbalance among specialized weapons, and(best part here) because it would temporary, we would have a minimum of rage.

Well, the other issue is that we have very few weapons to choose from right now. Once the weapon selection starts expanding down the road, the variety of weapons used will increase. You also have to take into account that ARs are the easiest weapons to pick up at the start, and are currently the only mid-range militia weapons available.


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Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.10.13 05:55:00 - [1] - Quote I've seen many people whining about the Assault Rifle of late, and not just for one thing or for known broken coding(which is now fixed btw). It's too accurate! It's fine the way it is! It's too weak! It's too short ranged! It's too long ranged! It's kick is screwed! The sight is unnatural! I can't paint it pretty colors! When it comes to ARs, let me make my position absolutely clear. I despise them. I detest them. I loath them. And not just here, but in all shooters. Too much good in everything, not enough bad in something. Too much Jack, not enough ass. Non-specialization sucks, but it's always the strongest way to go in most shooters, and that sickens me. Now that everyone who wouldn't read the whole OP thinks it's a rage thread and already commented, let's move on. I will now make a comparison to another team based shooting game. That game is TF2. TF2 has many of the roles we have here in DUST, but one major difference: no Assault Rifle, or even a comparable gun to an Assault Rifle. Each class is cripplingly overspecialized and has it's own weaknesses and strengths which the other classes make up for if used in a squad. And it has also survived for many years, and is touted as an amazingly balanced game. Now, I'm not saying we should remove ARs entirely, but it would be a nice way to test the balance of everything else if we removed the ARs from the game for a build. We could get things down like the damage build rate for the LRs, the best ranges for the shorter weapons(shotty, SMG), the best way to deal with sniping(how good the scope should be, how much it should kick), if we took the one thing that we know is working fine out of the equation for a few short weeks. I look forward to the thoughtful comments in the depths of the flame.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.10.13 06:08:00 - [2] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Hell, I find this intriguing just from the standpoint of seeing the effects. You should keep in mind, however, that the ARs in this game are far more restrictive than in some others. Hell, there's one for each role, and they don't even have select-fire options. True about the select-fire option, and that feeds off the specialization feel that is one of the cores of EVE... but I can't help but feel that trigger discipline makes much of that an afterthought. It doesn't matter how restrictive the ARs are or are not, they are the healthy majority of the guns being used, and as you said, the effect of temporarily removing them would be amazing to watch. With the players not auto-gravitating toward the golden standard of FPSing, we could see what other trends develop, what is in imbalance among specialized weapons, and(best part here) because it would temporary, we would have a minimum of rage.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.10.13 06:26:00 - [3] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Hell, I find this intriguing just from the standpoint of seeing the effects. You should keep in mind, however, that the ARs in this game are far more restrictive than in some others. Hell, there's one for each role, and they don't even have select-fire options. True about the select-fire option, and that feeds off the specialization feel that is one of the cores of EVE... but I can't help but feel that trigger discipline makes much of that an afterthought. It doesn't matter how restrictive the ARs are or are not, they are the healthy majority of the guns being used, and as you said, the effect of temporarily removing them would be amazing to watch. With the players not auto-gravitating toward the golden standard of FPSing, we could see what other trends develop, what is in imbalance among specialized weapons, and(best part here) because it would temporary, we would have a minimum of rage. Well, the other issue is that we have very few weapons to choose from right now. Once the weapon selection starts expanding down the road, the variety of weapons used will increase. You also have to take into account that ARs are the easiest weapons to pick up at the start, and are currently the only mid-range militia weapons available. Well, technically there are breach SMGs and Burstfire HMGs, but yea, midrange is kinda devoid of life... cuz the AR shot it all :P In all seriousness, we do need more choice for midrange primaries. Also, about the 'easy-to-pick-up,' that is one of the main points I wanted to make. Apparently I wasn't too clear on it, so thank you for bringing it up. When it comes to all the weapons we have (LR, AR, SR, HMG, FG, SMG, Knife, Grenade, SL, SP, Shotgun, and MD), two need a special suit to use, one can't fire on infantry, and four are classified as sub weapons. Of the remaining five, one is only effective at minimum range(but is VERY effective there), one is a grenade launcher with limited reserves, two are rapid rifle expies one of which has very limited choice of model, and one is a sniper. We start the game with a supply of ARs and one other gun, depending on our class choice... and lets be honest, most of us probably chose Arbiter. If we aren't given a chance to utilize the other guns, we will fall into the easy to use old standby that is the AR. Maybe we should start with ten or so runs of all the militia things, several pre-built fittings for them, and can delete the fittings as we try them. And for the love of Heavies, make militia HMG and Forge or make them the same price range as their light counterparts.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.10.14 23:39:00 - [4] - Quote I don't seek the ARs removal, I seek balance with all the other tools of the trade. As you stated, people gravitate toward the AR. If you had continued to read, you would have noticed that I stated that removing the AR would force people out of their comfort zone to make them choose the specialized weapons and get a feel for them. Also, because a dropship can do anything, which it can't by the way, doesn't mean you take something else and say it's fine because it isn't as bad. In fact, if people ditched the AR for a build they would come across the weapons which kill dropships, which is the point of this thread. Because the majority uses ARs, we can't test what a balanced team of specialists can do. We only test what ARs can do versus the special weapons. You may have remembered me saying this, maybe not, but thank you for being the one to prove 'Now that everyone who wouldn't read the whole OP thinks it's a rage thread and already commented, let's move on.' wasn't wasted typing. Furthermore, does anyone else find the fact that he whines about 'godmode' dropships, but hates the idea that people will be forced into roles that can fight dropships? It is immensely entertaining.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.10.15 18:09:00 - [5] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: I noticed that a lot of ppl say that AR is the only midrange weapon and that's why it's popular. To be fair it's also the most powerful short range weapon outparsing shottys and HMG in how it performs up close. This latter part is what makes AR so unbalanced. HMG's may have weaker bullets but more that make up for this with Insanely high DPS and total potential damage per Mag. we do a lot more dammage a lot faster. True, but its a limit to how close you can go. If anyone who isn't another heavy gets too close to an HMG user, then they can circle him like a maypole... nothing raises the blood pressure more than being totally helpless like that.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.10.15 18:43:00 - [6] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: True, but its a limit to how close you can go. If anyone who isn't another heavy gets too close to an HMG user, then they can circle him like a maypole... nothing raises the blood pressure more than being totally helpless like that. good luck that that. you will need it. with just the standard heavy and a good armor mod i have a shield armor total that is a little over 900 HP (thats more than the default lav). so if you are orbiting me, just remember to make every bullet count . worse comes to worse, i pull out my side arm That's the thing. I am a Heavy as well, and have had a Scout melee me to death in this fashion. With 135 being standard melee damage, it took quite a while. Felt like trying to kill a Rifter in a Tornado without webs... There is a sweet spot where the HMG is amazing, but most of the time people are too far away and in AR's prime range, or too close and in maypole range. I just wish heavy had the same turn speed as everyone else, or maybe a high slot module that increases turn speed and weapon damage, kinda like a Gyro-stabilizer in EVE.