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STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.10.11 21:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
What if instead of having shields be multiple times greater than armour we increase the rate armor is repaired and lower the base shield recharge rate to that of the current armour repair which would make the shield recharger essential for a speedy repair. |
Velvet Overkill
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
104
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Posted - 2012.10.11 23:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds interesting but could make heavies OP if not done correctly. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.10.11 23:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
I doubt it |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
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Posted - 2012.10.12 00:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
More people should use flux grenades- problem solved.
One flux grenade can remove the shields from a tank. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.10.12 01:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's a general topic, not just tanks |
Raven Tesio
Liandri Hel-Jumpers Liandri Covenant
35
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Posted - 2012.10.12 01:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well if you see how the balancing has been done, Shields have no resists; where-as Armour does. This means that even if you have the same Armour as Shields, the Shield disappear ALOT quicker under fire.
Effectively speaking, with Shields it's all about Alpha Strike to beat them. Where-as with Armour it's about sustained firepower.
This is why the Gallente Tank is actually considerably more difficult to break than the Caldari Tank. You see the same thing when talking about the Caldari Assault Suit (considerably larger shields) next to the Amarr Heavy Suit (considerably more Armour)
On the whole I think the balance is alright. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.10.12 01:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Raven Tesio wrote:Well if you see how the balancing has been done, Shields have no resists; where-as Armour does. This means that even if you have the same Armour as Shields, the Shield disappear ALOT quicker under fire.
Effectively speaking, with Shields it's all about Alpha Strike to beat them. Where-as with Armour it's about sustained firepower.
This is why the Gallente Tank is actually considerably more difficult to break than the Caldari Tank. You see the same thing when talking about the Caldari Assault Suit (considerably larger shields) next to the Amarr Heavy Suit (considerably more Armour)
On the whole I think the balance is alright.
Actually, they both have resistances as the smg, mass driver, and hmg does more damage to armor |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.12 03:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Re: OP I'm generally for the idea of bringing Armor and Shields in line. In essence I think that someone who's running Proto gear with top skills (i.e. Rank V) should be getting equivalent protection regardless of whether those choices lean toward armor or shields (clearly this is a general statement, the weapons that are designed to do more damage to one or the other would still function as normal so the equivalency is on average not mean to make them identical).
Addendum: That being said CCP just nerfed the effective value of armor even more in the last hot fix by stripping War Points off of the Repair Tool thus giving LogiBros less reason to try and Skill into/Fit one. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.10.12 03:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Re: OP I'm generally for the idea of bringing Armor and Shields in line. In essence I think that someone who's running Proto gear with top skills (i.e. Rank V) should be getting equivalent protection regardless of whether those choices lean toward armor or shields (clearly this is a general statement, the weapons that are designed to do more damage to one or the other would still function as normal so the equivalency is on average not mean to make them identical).
Addendum: That being said CCP just nerfed the effective value of armor even more in the last hot fix by stripping War Points off of the Repair Tool thus giving LogiBros less reason to try and Skill into/Fit one.
Wow ccp, thanks for making this Shields 514 |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2012.10.12 06:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Anything to make armor and shield a bit more even, I say. Especially those utterly useless dropsuit armor repairers.
Small example just to show numbers. Amarr Heavy suit without modules has 680-odd armor. Prototype armor repair unit does 5 armor per second. Skills neccesary to equip this increase it by 25% to 6.4 armor per second. This heavy, if injured badly, must wait about two minutes to get back into the fight without external aid. Plus heavy stuff is 2x more expensive than equivalent light stuff, so he can't exactly just go Leeroy and remorselessly redeploy.
Also, seeing as the armor layers slow you down, maybe we could add something to the shield extenders as a negative? Easier to show up on the map, maybe larger hitbox(both of which are direct analogs from what EVE shield extenders do[raise sig radius])? |
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Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2012.10.12 06:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
STB Vermaak Doe wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Re: OP I'm generally for the idea of bringing Armor and Shields in line. In essence I think that someone who's running Proto gear with top skills (i.e. Rank V) should be getting equivalent protection regardless of whether those choices lean toward armor or shields (clearly this is a general statement, the weapons that are designed to do more damage to one or the other would still function as normal so the equivalency is on average not mean to make them identical).
Addendum: That being said CCP just nerfed the effective value of armor even more in the last hot fix by stripping War Points off of the Repair Tool thus giving LogiBros less reason to try and Skill into/Fit one. Wow ccp, thanks for making this Shields 514
Also, although I hate whate they did, they had to do it. In a hotfix, all they can do is alter point values and throw true/false switches, so they 0ed out repair, threw the false switch for tactical_Assault_Rifle_auto, and switched the points for PSs. Not the most clean thing, and I won't be calling in my Heavy suit anymore because I'll never get repaired now but I can see why they did it... |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.12 06:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:STB Vermaak Doe wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Re: OP I'm generally for the idea of bringing Armor and Shields in line. In essence I think that someone who's running Proto gear with top skills (i.e. Rank V) should be getting equivalent protection regardless of whether those choices lean toward armor or shields (clearly this is a general statement, the weapons that are designed to do more damage to one or the other would still function as normal so the equivalency is on average not mean to make them identical).
Addendum: That being said CCP just nerfed the effective value of armor even more in the last hot fix by stripping War Points off of the Repair Tool thus giving LogiBros less reason to try and Skill into/Fit one. Wow ccp, thanks for making this Shields 514 Also, although I hate whate they did, they had to do it. In a hotfix, all they can do is alter point values and throw true/false switches, so they 0ed out repair, threw the false switch for tactical_Assault_Rifle_auto, and switched the points for PSs. Not the most clean thing, and I won't be calling in my Heavy suit anymore because I'll never get repaired now but I can see why they did it...
The WP values for repair Tools already track the values independently (i.e. suits give differing awards than verticals etc) even in a hotfix they could have set the value to 0 for vehicle repair and kept the WP on the other. (or if coding prevented that somehow they could have reduced it to 1, that would still have removed the farming).
Anyway yah it's a hotfix and there are limited options there, just wish they'd used one of their other options that didn't prevent further testing on the Rep Tool (because even before the hotfix its current iteration wasn't truly functional).
Zero Harpuia wrote:Anything to make armor and shield a bit more even, I say. Especially those utterly useless dropsuit armor repairers.
Small example just to show numbers. Amarr Heavy suit without modules has 680-odd armor. Prototype armor repair unit does 5 armor per second. Skills neccesary to equip this increase it by 25% to 6.4 armor per second. This heavy, if injured badly, must wait about two minutes to get back into the fight without external aid. Plus heavy stuff is 2x more expensive than equivalent light stuff, so he can't exactly just go Leeroy and remorselessly redeploy.
Also, seeing as the armor layers slow you down, maybe we could add something to the shield extenders as a negative? Easier to show up on the map, maybe larger hitbox(both of which are direct analogs from what EVE shield extenders do[raise sig radius])?
I'm liking these ideas :) an increased profile for using shield extenders makes sense to me and a different but equal drawback to the speed reduction of armor would be great :) |
Carl Hauser
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2012.10.12 07:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Anything to make armor and shield a bit more even, I say. Especially those utterly useless dropsuit armor repairers.
Small example just to show numbers. Amarr Heavy suit without modules has 680-odd armor. Prototype armor repair unit does 5 armor per second. Skills neccesary to equip this increase it by 25% to 6.4 armor per second. This heavy, if injured badly, must wait about two minutes to get back into the fight without external aid. Plus heavy stuff is 2x more expensive than equivalent light stuff, so he can't exactly just go Leeroy and remorselessly redeploy.
Also, seeing as the armor layers slow you down, maybe we could add something to the shield extenders as a negative? Easier to show up on the map, maybe larger hitbox(both of which are direct analogs from what EVE shield extenders do[raise sig radius])?
Its even worse because the skill for dropsuit selfrepair only works when you have a repair unit in your suit and btw it gives only a max bonus of 15%. Compare that to skill shield handling which does the same for shields (here it works without module). Dropsuit selfrepair should not be a percantage based skill but a skill on fixed value per level lets say 0.5 HP/sec. This would benefit all suitsetups regardless if they use a repairmodule. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2012.10.12 07:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
On the first, yeah, I was a logi last build so I understand exactly how bugged the reppers are... won't lock, won't stay locked, the list goes on. As for the second, danke mein kamarad. I became a Madrugar pilot mid last build to find an AV tool to be used against Sagaris's, so I devoted alot of time into thinking how shields and armor could be leveled.
Another point I'd like to make is due to the lack of Structure, Armor appears to have taken that role where vehicles are concerned. When armor reaches 50% or lower, it begins to damage itself from the fires this sparks. A proposed solution is to add the shield penetration system of EVE (armor takes portion of damage once shields get to 20% or so) or add a structure level to assign the fire and smoke to, like how our dropsuits appear to have 1 Structure HP.
Also, as a cosmetic thing, lowering armor sparks fires and smoke. Could we have low shields give a visual indicator, like visible hive structures in areas that aren't being shot, or shimmers of distortion across the hull?
These are more vehicle related I admit, but it is still an armor and shield comparison. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2012.10.12 07:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Carl Hauser wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Anything to make armor and shield a bit more even, I say. Especially those utterly useless dropsuit armor repairers.
Small example just to show numbers. Amarr Heavy suit without modules has 680-odd armor. Prototype armor repair unit does 5 armor per second. Skills neccesary to equip this increase it by 25% to 6.4 armor per second. This heavy, if injured badly, must wait about two minutes to get back into the fight without external aid. Plus heavy stuff is 2x more expensive than equivalent light stuff, so he can't exactly just go Leeroy and remorselessly redeploy.
Also, seeing as the armor layers slow you down, maybe we could add something to the shield extenders as a negative? Easier to show up on the map, maybe larger hitbox(both of which are direct analogs from what EVE shield extenders do[raise sig radius])? Its even worse because the skill for dropsuit selfrepair only works when you have a repair unit in your suit and btw it gives only a max bonus of 15%. Compare that to skill shield handling which does the same for shields (here it works without module). Dropsuit selfrepair should not be a percantage based skill but a skill on fixed value per level lets say 0.5 HP/sec. This would benefit all suitsetups regardless if they use a repairmodule.
Thank you for the research. Also, 15% of 5 (the best repper) is .75, not even a full point. Many things suffer from this haphazard form of skill, like Mass Drivers and Forge Guns not getting a single new shot when you level their capacity upgrades, or HMGs become worse at close combat when you level Heavy Sharpshooter. |
Villanor Aquarius
Shattered Ascension
79
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Posted - 2012.10.12 14:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Armor and Shields are good. Armor gives you far more hit points and low repair rate. External repairs however are easy and fast considering how much armor people have. Shields are shot off very easily and never give as many hit points as armor. The trade off is recharge rate. Also Shields when depleted take ages to come back. This all is how it works in eve and it's awesome. They are different and fill different roles. Heavies and logis who should recover between engagements roll armor. Assaults who want to attack regroup and repeat also go armor.
If your style is to brawl or take damage as you run by then go Shields you can **** down briefly recover and go again but you're total hit points suffers.
give logistics suits a 20% per logistics operation level, bonus to repair amount.
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.16 04:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:On the first, yeah, I was a logi last build so I understand exactly how bugged the reppers are... won't lock, won't stay locked, the list goes on. As for the second, danke mein kamarad. I became a Madrugar pilot mid last build to find an AV tool to be used against Sagaris's, so I devoted alot of time into thinking how shields and armor could be leveled.
Another point I'd like to make is due to the lack of Structure, Armor appears to have taken that role where vehicles are concerned. When armor reaches 50% or lower, it begins to damage itself from the fires this sparks. A proposed solution is to add the shield penetration system of EVE (armor takes portion of damage once shields get to 20% or so) or add a structure level to assign the fire and smoke to, like how our dropsuits appear to have 1 Structure HP.
Also, as a cosmetic thing, lowering armor sparks fires and smoke. Could we have low shields give a visual indicator, like visible hive structures in areas that aren't being shot, or shimmers of distortion across the hull?
These are more vehicle related I admit, but it is still an armor and shield comparison.
I'll admit maybe I'm biased since I play EVE, but I really do think that adding structure and a "splash over" mechanic as in EVE would be a distinct improvement over the current system. It would also be in keeping with the world as it's established and frankly I don't see why the change would lead to any drawbacks as compared to the current system.
I suppose that's a long winded +1 lol |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
385
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Posted - 2012.10.16 04:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Shields tend to last just as long as armour when properly fitted in eve so why not here? |
Jack McReady
A.C.M.E Corp
71
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Posted - 2012.10.16 08:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
armor is meant to be a valuable ressource that is not as easy to recover without proper logistic and downtimes. you can either go shield hp and be better suited for attrition fights OR you can go for armor hp and have an advantage at your first encounter. this is intended to give losing teams a fighting chance. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 17:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
I felt this thread deserved some more eyes in light of the recent changes and Dev notes.
Short version is, armor burn is increasing while Logi WPs are being reduced and/or completely removed (depending on the area in question). This further weakens armor tanking as a viable choice.
It seems the goal is to provide more incentive for vehicles to fit repper mods, and personally I'm fine with that as a goal (you want more than a buffer tank? Use a repper mod, makes sense to me) however the current methods of driving toward this seem to be hitting other game aspects outside that 'target area' with questionable effects.
0.02 ISK Cross |
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