DUST Search - Request for changes to sniper rifles.

Fivetimes Infinity wrote:

GOLD LEAD3R wrote:

Quote:

And your point is....? Not trying to be a jerk, but that is the role of a sniper. Anywhere. Trying not to be seen and take out guys who have no idea where the sniper is. That's the point. The argument that it makes it "less fun" for infantry is a bit silly. People die in battle, and it's not fun, but that's part of the game. Not to mention, when I run a logi, I maybe die once a match to a sniper. I mean, if people are standing out in the open they deserved to be shot. They're really not a problem, coming from someone who plays infantry.

The role of a sniper is to engage people at long range. That's about it. There isn't any requirement that sniping be one of the best ways to make ISK in the game, on account of how safe it is to do and thus how little you spend each match on gear.

And people really don't stand still out in the open. Most Dust players are probably experienced FPS players in general. I see this sometimes, people instructing the victims of snipers to not stand around, but despite having killed a couple thousand people with a sniper rifle the only people you can count on to be just standing around are, ironically, the snipers themselves.

The comment about fun is relevant. Stuff should be fun. Game systems which are really annoying for some players, even if they're fun for others or "realistic", are to be avoided. Stuff like spawn camping is a good example. Being suddenly killed by an enemy half a kilometre away isn't fun to be on the receiving end of. And "realism" or whatever isn't a sensible answer to that very real issue.


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Vincam Velmoriar Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2012.10.08 20:07:00 - [1] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: GOLD LEAD3R wrote: Quote: And your point is....? Not trying to be a jerk, but that is the role of a sniper. Anywhere. Trying not to be seen and take out guys who have no idea where the sniper is. That's the point. The argument that it makes it "less fun" for infantry is a bit silly. People die in battle, and it's not fun, but that's part of the game. Not to mention, when I run a logi, I maybe die once a match to a sniper. I mean, if people are standing out in the open they deserved to be shot. They're really not a problem, coming from someone who plays infantry. The role of a sniper is to engage people at long range. That's about it. There isn't any requirement that sniping be one of the best ways to make ISK in the game, on account of how safe it is to do and thus how little you spend each match on gear. And people really don't stand still out in the open. Most Dust players are probably experienced FPS players in general. I see this sometimes, people instructing the victims of snipers to not stand around, but despite having killed a couple thousand people with a sniper rifle the only people you can count on to be just standing around are, ironically, the snipers themselves. The comment about fun is relevant. Stuff should be fun. Game systems which are really annoying for some players, even if they're fun for others or "realistic", are to be avoided. Stuff like spawn camping is a good example. Being suddenly killed by an enemy half a kilometre away isn't fun to be on the receiving end of. And "realism" or whatever isn't a sensible answer to that very real issue. Yeah, you're totally right about ISK. But if you want to earn war points, there are a lot of easier ways to do it. It's not overpowered from that standpoint. KDR? Yeah, but not war points, which is another reason I don't think it's OP. About standing around- anecdotal as well, so it's not something to go back and forth over, but you play sniper and I have been playing logi, and I can tell you that I rarely get sniped. I guess I don't understand how it's that much of a problem if I (and average player) haven't run into it being annoying. Quote: Sniper play is fine and does not need to be changed. The nerf on this build is a happy medium between what you want and what snipers want. I'd say thank CCP and leave it at that. You remember I play as a sniper, right? [/quote] Yes, your Fivetimes toon plays as a sniper. But there are some on this forum who have alts, and use those alts as a means of nerfing weapons they eventually will not play come launch. This is the EVE universe, after all. Not outright accusing you, but I'm not ruling it out. You wanted a nerf last build, but now, for some reason, that wasn't enough, even though you say you play as a sniper. That seems strange to me.... But you didn't address my biggest point: Snipers do not ruin gameplay. Having too many snipers on a team has never won a game, thus the sniper is not OP. If it was OP like other things people have complained about, the snipers would be the deciding factor in most battles (see HAV's, etc), but they're not. And in fact, the number of snipers is directly proportional to how likely a team is to lose. A couple of good snipers on a team full of good infantry can do well, but a team full of good snipers will lose every time. I think we can both agree on that. Anyway, all of this means that snipers are not OP. I play an AR logi and an assault sniper (and plan on playing that at launch), so I'm coming at it from both sides.
Vincam Velmoriar Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:57:00 - [2] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: War Points are something I always lag behind it, but I don't particularly care about that. It's just a metric for other people to judge their performance by, whereas snipers would use KDR instead. But sniping being highly inexpensive by comparison is a real issue that speaks to the ease at which sniping tends to occur. It's that ease I'd see done away with. The ISK stuff will balance out if sniping is made more difficult and dangerous. So, you agree that snipers lag behind in war points? Good, I think we're getting somewhere. You can get way more war points on the ground hacking objectives, turrets, CRU's, Depots, reviving, repairing, and getting an occasional kill than you can sitting up on a hill taking pot shots. All of that being said, we know (as CCP has stated) that war points, not number of kills, is what determines both ISK and SP. Therefore, because snipers get less war points, as we both have said, then snipers will get less SP and less ISK. So the ease at which someone can snipe is more than made up by the fact that they won't get much in return. Thus, it's pretty balanced (and by the way, I'm not sure if you're talking about ISK or SP, in terms of being cheap, but my logi build costs about the same as my sniper build, and as far as SP goes, it's the same as assault, to where you can't level up damage until you spec the sway- AR's being spray). Fivetimes Infinity wrote: It wasn't enough this build because my main points weren't addressed with this nerf. The only thing that changed is the ability to one-shot people was made far less common. A victory for Dust players of all stripes, certainly, but not definitive, and only one of the things I'd advocated for last build. So one shotting is less common. Agreed. If they went with a further nerf, then snipers wouldn't get any kills at all. If we know it takes at least 2 shots to kill most infantry, and after the first shot the sway is so bad that you can't get off another, then 99% percent of the snipers, including myself, would never get a kill. Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Regardless, you need to give CCP more respect. They no doubt have the ability to track stats about weapon usage and etc to a great degree. Although sniping is an imbalance I experience regularly and, thus, is something I speak out against, at the end of the day there are people at CCP more informed and better at deciding what is good for Dust than myself. They're the ones who are ultimately making the decisions about what to nerf or buff or whatever. I don't think any single person on this forum has ever been responsible for something being nerfed. It could be that the opinion of someone here happened to align with the opinion of CCP devs, but they aren't going to just do whatever we want them to to their game. Big, multimillion dollar projects like Dust aren't going to make decisions based on the ramblings of some random ***** like me. The only thing I hope to accomplish is to maybe get the CCP people thinking a bit more about where sniping is, and where it ought to be. I need to give CCP more respect? You're the one making up the thread. Scratching my head on that comment. And yes, they have the ability to track stats, and I'm pretty certain those stats show that the sniper is not OP. Maybe they don't. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, but you're saying you're a sniper and it's too hard for infantry. I'm saying I play half the time as infantry, and it hasn't been a problem for me. Anecdotal on both our parts, so it's a wash I guess. It's just strange that I've only seen 2 threads about sniping being too poweful, and they both come from you. If you were an AR user, it wouldn't be that strange, but you're the first person to come on here and ask- no beg- for a nerf for the role that you play, not once, but twice. CCP nerfed it, which is what you wanted, and now you're calling for another nerf. You say you're playing as a sniper. I have no doubt. But the question is, will you be playing as a sniper come launch? Can you see how strange this might look from a casual observer's point of view? Asking for a second nerf after there already has been one for the gun that you use? I guess I just don't get it. Either you're the most benevolent gamer I've ever come in contact with, or something is afoot. Fivetimes Infinity wrote:** I don't agree with the conclusion, that it means snipers aren't OP if a team full of them won't win a game. Snipers just aren't about taking objectives. That doesn't mean they aren't too powerful at killing infantry given their player skill/ISK requirements. And if sniping is too powerful for what you put into it, then while it may not ruin the game in this case, it'll be enough of a detriment to it that it'll do more harm than good. Which doesn't sound as dramatic as it ruining the game, but still warrants a look. See my top argument, but you yourself said you lag behind in war points, and you are one of the top five in KDR (which is what a sniper is judged by). Since war points = SP and ISK, that means the players who aren't as good as you (and that means 99.9999% of the players) will lag even further behind in war points than you, thus lagging further behind in ISK and SP. This, then, disproves the argument that the average sniper will get too much ISK or SP. I think we both know it doesn't ruin the game. Annoying for people on the ground? Sure. But so is an AR rifle when I'm trying to sneak around. Nothing's perfect. But what I'm hearing is that it's annoying, and I just don't think that's a good reason. I'm sure CCP will give it another look, but I don't see any other threads about sniping being OP, yet there are at least 8 or 9 threads on the scout suit being underpowered. If I'm CCP, I would tend to think a bunch of threads on a subject more likely signifies an issue, as opposed to one.
Vincam Velmoriar Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2012.10.09 17:07:00 - [3] - Quote Vile Heathen wrote: Aidan Torrall wrote: Yes, it's true. Look at the leaderboard after any match you play. It's all based off of war points, not number of kills. ISK and SP are based off war points as well. CCP said they changed how ISK and SP are handed out for this build, which is great, because it's no longer about KDR, it's about actually helping your team, even if you're dying a lot. A sniper can go 14-1, but will only get 700 war points. A logi can go 8-9, but will easily get 1300 skill points from hacking, revives, dropping uplinks, etc. The way the SP/ISK is calculated now, snipers don't get **** in terms of SP or ISK. Nerfing them more would just mean taking snipers ouf the game. They're fine, leave them alone. They earn the least WP out of any class as it is. I agree. Snipers are fine. I'm usually the sniper for my squad and half of my role is countering other snipers. I usually only get a lot of points when the squad leader calls defend orders etc, even when I got plenty of kills. Though I do think it's too easy to "see" your targets through fog and mist in this build. Makes sniping a lot less challenging. Also, railguns should have a plasma trail. The physics make sense and it would look cool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Railgun_usnavy_2008.jpg The seeing other players through the fog is an error, and I'm sure it'll be fixed. But yes, to put a button on this thread, snipers (by far) earn the lowest amount of war points among the different roles. That translates into by far the lowest amount of ISK and SP. Take an average sniper and an average logi, or heck a good sniper and a good logi, and the sniper will get less than half the war points every time. Snipers are fine. Leave them alone.