DUST Search - scouts: after i ran a few match

Fivetimes Infinity wrote:

Vincam Velmoriar wrote:

And when claoking comes in, you're right, it'll be for everyone. And since the scout has significantly less CPU/PG, the assault or logi suits will be the best cloaking suit too.

The way they handle cloaking in EVE is that the ships intended to use cloaking get a 99% reduction to the CPU requirements of the cloak as one of the bonuses for that ship. I generally hate doing things like EVE did them just because Dust and EVE are in the same universe, but in this case I wouldn't mind. I think giving the scout suits an intrinsic bonus to cloaking in the form of reduced requirements to use the cloak would be a decent idea. Then the lower PG/CPU wouldn't matter so much.

Cross Atu wrote:

Question, based on the battled field role as described in the OP (which as a playstyle actually seems quite a fun option btw) how does a player who focuses on being a scout earn WP/SP/ISK?

And when answering assume for a moment what a player might wish to deploy in a scout suit, without an equipped sniper rifle, and still be effective/viable both in contributing to their squad and in earning WP/SP/ISK.

In current Codex state the Scout Suit is the most limited with regard to having effective weapon selection options and that limitation either needs to be changed or there need to be additional benefits to off-set it. (Honestly changed so the suit isn't relegated to being a "one trick pony" would be the better option).

Fully agree that a scout should lose a straight up fight to an assault all other things being equal, but that should be a tactical constraint not a purely mechanical one (i.e. scouts should be able to kill assaults if/when the "get the drop on them" as opposed to being forced into sniper only "must only engage outside of AR range or die).

0.02 ISK
Cross

Breaking Wheel wrote:

Vincam Velmoriar wrote:

This might be the 20th time I've posted this today, but I'm not going to quit.

Speed. All the scout buff naysayers keep talking about how it's faster. It's barely faster. It's 10% faster than an assault, yet it has 2/3 of the CPU, PG, and hit points. The difference in speed is hardly noticeable. Have you sprinted next to an assault? I have, and he's right with me. I barely win. It's basically a wash, not to mention the fact that an assault has more room, CPU/GPU wise to put in better speed modules which makes it even more of a wash, if not a win for the assault.

Should a scout win a head on matchup with an assault? Of course not. Am I glad hit detection is fixed? Absolutely. But give the scout something to make it useful. Speed clearly isn't it.

And when claoking comes in, you're right, it'll be for everyone. And since the scout has significantly less CPU/PG, the assault or logi suits will be the best cloaking suit too.

currently the differences between the suits are not pronounced enough, as far as my tastes go.

heavy doesnt feel heavy, logi feels far too helpless, scout is missing 'something'... there doesnt seem to be any reason, outside of specific weapon fits or equipment rosters, to use anything other then the assault suit.


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Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.07 03:17:00 - [1] - Quote When I was arguing against the buffs to scouts some pointed out that I don't use them. Well I threw together a fit and ran out into the world, didn't do good but got a feel for how they play and some of my issue I ran into. Its not an assault their lack of amour is complete useless in a fight now that hit detection is improved. Well this is how it should be in a straight up fight an assault should mow down scouts because that's what that assault is built for and not what the scout suit is built for. That's something people need to come to terms with the scout isn't invincible any more and it can no longer hold its own against a straight up combat suit. Ive said to adapt a few times and that can be harsh and unwarranted most of the time but here I think it applies. The scouts can't and shouldn't be able to match Assault if they engage them, yes a Shotgun CQC scout can but I compare this to EVE players using a roqual(a mining ship) to fight(and win). ive tried attacking a few different ways with a few different weapons and I got to admit the days of scouts using their speed to go toe to toe with assault is over and a good thing. Now those who run scout can focus on recon things or perverted uses like CQC which it works if you know how and are willing to understand that is a exception not the rule. The changes to scanning and signature brings up a great new use for scouts maybe will get a medium slot scan radius boost module(hint hint CCP) along with maybe a side arm radar gun thing and a deployable sensor someone could make a whole specialization around detecting enemy's to support your squad of course you would have to get people to support modules tools and equipment like that(hint hint players). Another thing is cloaking and how its going to affect scouts, first off scouts are not the exclusive cloakers or built around cloaking their built around weak HP and speed/agility its what you do with it from there that counts. Players should think about what interesting thing cloaking would allow them to do before they ask for buffs and such to scouts Why not make fits that capitalize on the dropsuits speed for anther purpose other than fighting, build a suit with hacking modules and speed boosters and hack everything you can this would be a practical way to go for scouts, or go with speed and low detection and drop uplinks everywhere to support your squad. Don't forget make some request for new modules and gear and specialization for scouts you could do all kinds of support things with them. Specifically about suit bonuses in eve every ship has a different bonus such as 5% this or that its different for everywhere threes no uniform between ships of the same class or hull. I figured we get something like that but some of you know this and are asking for bonus like 5% to damage I disagree if you want to be direct combat so bad stick a few speed boosters on a assault and go for it. I see them getting 5% to things like sprint, walk, reload, detection range, signature profile and such not bonus to direct combat if you can bend them to combat roles then go for it. Little bit of a Tl;dr so I highlighted important points for you skimmers
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.07 18:37:00 - [2] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Vincam Velmoriar wrote: And when claoking comes in, you're right, it'll be for everyone. And since the scout has significantly less CPU/PG, the assault or logi suits will be the best cloaking suit too. The way they handle cloaking in EVE is that the ships intended to use cloaking get a 99% reduction to the CPU requirements of the cloak as one of the bonuses for that ship. I generally hate doing things like EVE did them just because Dust and EVE are in the same universe, but in this case I wouldn't mind. I think giving the scout suits an intrinsic bonus to cloaking in the form of reduced requirements to use the cloak would be a decent idea. Then the lower PG/CPU wouldn't matter so much. I dont think the entire scout class would get a bonus to cloaking maybe a special suit would but not the entire class. Cross Atu wrote: Question, based on the battled field role as described in the OP (which as a playstyle actually seems quite a fun option btw) how does a player who focuses on being a scout earn WP/SP/ISK? And when answering assume for a moment what a player might wish to deploy in a scout suit, without an equipped sniper rifle, and still be effective/viable both in contributing to their squad and in earning WP/SP/ISK. In current Codex state the Scout Suit is the most limited with regard to having *effective* weapon selection options and that limitation either needs to be changed or there need to be additional benefits to off-set it. (Honestly changed so the suit isn't relegated to being a "one trick pony" would be the better option). Fully agree that a scout should lose a straight up fight to an assault all other things being equal, but that should be a tactical constraint not a purely mechanical one (i.e. scouts should be able to kill assaults if/when the "get the drop on them" as opposed to being forced into sniper only "must only engage outside of AR range or die). 0.02 ISK Cross Then why are all the scouts asking for buffs a side arm crossbow that does good damage and is silent would be a hellish for a scout poping in and out of detection range of assaults. Why not mass driver its high damage and only requires some effort to use. Breaking Wheel wrote: Vincam Velmoriar wrote: This might be the 20th time I've posted this today, but I'm not going to quit. Speed. All the scout buff naysayers keep talking about how it's faster. It's barely faster. It's 10% faster than an assault, yet it has 2/3 of the CPU, PG, and hit points. The difference in speed is hardly noticeable. Have you sprinted next to an assault? I have, and he's right with me. I barely win. It's basically a wash, not to mention the fact that an assault has more room, CPU/GPU wise to put in better speed modules which makes it even more of a wash, if not a win for the assault. Should a scout win a head on matchup with an assault? Of course not. Am I glad hit detection is fixed? Absolutely. But give the scout something to make it useful. Speed clearly isn't it. And when claoking comes in, you're right, it'll be for everyone. And since the scout has significantly less CPU/PG, the assault or logi suits will be the best cloaking suit too. currently the differences between the suits are not pronounced enough, as far as my tastes go. heavy doesnt feel heavy, logi feels far too helpless, scout is missing 'something'... there doesnt seem to be any reason, outside of specific weapon fits or equipment rosters, to use anything other then the assault suit. theres not much of a difference but it could be a bit more subtler than more HP or speed. For example a 5% decrease to assault speed to increase that margin would be in line scout would have a slightly clearer advantage. Or fast reload, faster stamina recharge things like that in 5% mns would work. Maybe thwy are already there and your not noticing?
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.07 18:46:00 - [3] - Quote My stance 10% boost to cpu/pg to see how it affects them. 5% decrease to assault speed to increase the margin and not have scout exceed the hit detection barrier. more noticable margin between agility aspects between assaults and scouts Change nothing that affects direct combat powers More modules that support auxillery roles for scouts, spead them out along the slots so scouts can take full advantage
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.07 19:33:00 - [4] - Quote I just dont think all scouts should get the bonus, sure on special suits designed for it but not all of them. CCP should focus on giving Scouts other tools amd modules to give them more recon and support roles not build scouts around the concept of cloaking. Besides I see cloaking as being a mechanic that already favors smaller suits so by default scouts would already be the best able to use cloaking, no meed to add a cheaper CPU/PG for all of them as well.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.07 22:47:00 - [5] - Quote @baal Roo I assume the effectiveness of cloaking would be based off suits size and movement, the bigger they are the harder its to cloak, the faster they move the less their cloak. Under that assumtion heavy wouldnt beable to use it at all and assault and logi would be reduced to a crawl while using it. Scouts on the other hand would be able to walk at normal pace with cloak up. so the scout would be better able to use it, but it doesnt need a Cpu/Pg cost reduction for using. @tyrius all abilitys should be a module to allow player to make their fits and varition. No suit should get a special power all the suit is, is a base amount of properties, CPU/PG, HP, and Slots there is should be nothing special about the suits other than these varition, mosules should provide the ability and uses of the suits not the suits them self
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.07 22:52:00 - [6] - Quote You shouldnt be able to shoot while cloaked so no invvisable assaults the bigger you are the slower you have to move when cloaked, therefore scouts could move at their natural pace when cloaked It should be a module so people can have varition and different combinations and so they can see what they do. Do you think scouts should be CQC kings or ahould they stick to support and recon roles?
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.07 22:55:00 - [7] - Quote Tyrius Madison wrote: Avenger 245 wrote: @baal Roo I assume the effectiveness of cloaking would be based off suits size and movement, the bigger they are the harder its to cloak, the faster they move the less their cloak. Under that assumtion heavy wouldnt beable to use it at all and assault and logi would be reduced to a crawl while using it. Scouts on the other hand would be able to walk at normal pace with cloak up. so the scout would be better able to use it, but it doesnt need a Cpu/Pg cost reduction for using. @tyrius all abilitys should be a module to allow player to make their fits and varition. No suit should get a special power all the suit is, is a base amount of properties, CPU/PG, HP, and Slots there is should be nothing special about the suits other than these varition, mosules should provide the ability and uses of the suits not the suits them self so this means that Scouts and Assaults should be able to use Heavy Weapons right? I understand your point. but nothing good will come of Assaults and Heavys being able to use a cloaking module. nothing at all. I think I mention slots as part of the difference between slots and heavies have heavy slots Also I said heavies shouldnt be able to cloak and assualt and logi would have to watch their speed. Theres no definite on the mechanic right now PS Have you noticed were posting at the same time?
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.08 14:35:00 - [8] - Quote mechanics arnt set in stone that is just my opinion maybe heavies would be unable to move while cloaked while assaults and logi would walk at a crawl while scouts went around at normal speed(not sprinting just walking/jogging) notice this and i hope it doesnt get buried i hoped off a ledge the other day and nearly killed my scout and i realised something the scout is a recon unit why doesnt it take less fall damage or have better mobility on hills than an assault i can understand a assult being unable to crawl some hills but the scout should.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.08 15:56:00 - [9] - Quote Like I said the cloaking mechanics not set in stone, I just my opinion that all suits should be able to use it,but only the scout can use it efficiently. @tyrius The point of runing scouts is to be quick and low profile not to cloak. I figured someone would agree to scouts taking less damage from falls.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.09 03:31:00 - [10] - Quote Who reads the discription regardless any buff to the scout should come in the form of increased margin between speed and agility of suit as well as low profile. Its a recon suit built for scouting not ninjas.

Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.13 17:33:00 - [11] - Quote now the current argument for scous is for them t be speed demons i disagree they could be a little faster but not much more any buff should come in forms of recon abilitys and should come in small margins up 5 or 10%
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.16 01:48:00 - [12] - Quote Bump
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.16 05:19:00 - [13] - Quote Scout set to drop uplink would earn points from that, a scout fitted for speed hacking would earn points from that, if a scout went recon he could grab assist. As for the KDR ive found high damage weapons are great for scouts mass drivers shotguns and Tac work great for them if AR are ever given sigificant kick to stop the constant spray of accuarct bullets and force AR to do controlled burst for medium and long range then scouts wouldnt be so weak at a distance the problem there is AR can unleash continious fire amd never let up proper kick work force contorlled burst thus extending their surviability at range and letting Tac and burst AR work well for the scout. But war points would be earned from uplinks, hacking and assist as for KDR scouts should focus on avioding fights unless they find a hurt straggler or unobservate person. Also scout can use instalations to great effect for more kills. I went one match as a scout woth 1524 WP 5/4 on one match running this stuff