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Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.10.06 23:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Madison Four wrote:Apparently some folks didn't get the memo that strafing and jumping are dead and you aren't allowed to do them anymore.
I think it is fairly obvious, based on how most players react to getting shot at, that a lot of players expected this game to be more like Halo than it actually is.
kinda funny watching people in Assault suits immediately start jumping like Kriss Kross as soon as the first bullet hits them.
Those idiots, expecting to be able to affect how a firefight plays out with things like skill and gun play. Don't they know that the game has now been reduced to a point and click game with a first person view? They just need to get with the program and grind away until they hit the SP cap each week so they can "compete" with all the "elite" players with the best gear. amirite? |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.10.06 23:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Matobar wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Madison Four wrote:Apparently some folks didn't get the memo that strafing and jumping are dead and you aren't allowed to do them anymore.
I think it is fairly obvious, based on how most players react to getting shot at, that a lot of players expected this game to be more like Halo than it actually is.
kinda funny watching people in Assault suits immediately start jumping like Kriss Kross as soon as the first bullet hits them. Those idiots, expecting to be able to affect how a firefight plays out with things like skill and gun play. Don't they know that the game has now been reduced to a point and click game with a first person view? They just need to get with the program and grind away until they hit the SP cap each week so they can "compete" with all the "elite" players with the best gear. amirite? Your definitions of "skill" and "gunplay" must be tragically skewed if you think DUST doesn't make any use of them as it is now.
Your definition of "skill" and "gunplay" must be tragically skewed if you think DUST makes optimal use of them as it is now.
I mean, ANY game has a certain amount of "skill" required. Hell, if you can't reach down and properly move your playing piece, then you don't have enough "skill" to play Candy Land, but that doesn't mean Candy Land is a highly "skilled" board game. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.10.06 23:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Matobar wrote:
Saying DUST 514 requires less skill because you can't run around in circles and shoot with the accuracy of Bobby Lee Swagger is just dumb.
That's a ridiculous strawman, and you know it.... or at least, I hope you do. Of course, I will admit that we are both reaching into the realms of hyperbole here, so I'll let it slide. I really honestly do feel like there is very little skill involved with this build. It's not completely devoid of any skill whatsover, but the learning curve is EXTREMELY low to the point of being pretty intensely boring for anyone who's even halfway decent at FPS, IMO.
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What about the skill in gauging a position to see if you can get a good shot off from there? Or the skill of actually aiming and shooting? Or the skill of working with your team to win by taking down objectives or wiping out enemies? If you're so skilled, then find a new way to win at this game instead of complaining about how bad things are now.
All of those skills will be necessary either way, and frankly, are pretty rudimentary. The problem is, as it stands, it's SO rudimentary that many of us aren't seeing any compelling reasons to bother "find(ing) a new way to win". My solution to the problem has simply been, not to play the game anymore... and it's the much more efficient and enjoyable solution IMO.
I've got better things to do with my time than play a slowed down, rudimentary, low point of entry/low skill level, FPS shooter that caters heavily to people willing to invest hours a day to grinding their SP and ISK. In previous builds the grind could be offset more easily with skill of play, but with so many aspects of the gunplay skill be removed or nerfed, the game now much more heavily favors the grinders. Clearly, the grinders want their time they've spent to eclipse my (and other's) ability to come in for a few hours a week and beat them with superior play, I get it, but catering to that base is going to limit the game's appeal to non-hardcore grinders. It's going to end up with the reputation of being a "game for no lifers". |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.10.07 00:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Matobar wrote:In all fairness, I do admit that "bobbing and weaving" by strafing around and jumping while still maintaining constant fire on your opponent does require skill. To be honest, I sucked at it, and was bad at the last few builds. I'm better in this one, and in all honestly I say I'm glad to see the strafing go out the window. Because, and I cannot stress this enough: this game is about tactical shooting, which emphasizes cover, superior positioning, good aim, and teamwork, not running-and-gunning. But saying that these things require "less" skill is simply untrue, because skill is not something that can be measured quantitatively. By that I mean: different skills matter differently to different people... difference <_<
Thanks for the honestly, but here's the problem with what you're saying. Again, "tactical shooting, with emphasizes cover, superior positioning, good aim, and team work" were already part of the game. They haven't added any new gameplay elements, so whatever was there before that they didn't remove, is what's left now. By removing the other "run and gun" elements, you don't make the other elements intrinsically more skillful. Those other elements are just the same as they were before, they've simply removed a bunch of other skills from the skillset.
As you have admitted, the game was HARDER before. You have the same skill set now as you had before the new build. Do you really believe that your gaming skill increased coincidentally with the new build, or if you're honest with yourself can you see that the skill required to actually play the game has diminished? You've "gotten better" because the skill required to play the game has diminished. It's the obvious answer, and if you're honest you'll see that it's the truth of the matter.
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Saying that the game is catering to those who want to grind is actually something I thought was obvious from the get-go: people who play more will get better equipment and better skills. Why on earth would CCP put these things into the game if they didn't expect the players to get them in order to gain an edge over the competition?
I do agree, generally speaking, with what you're saying here, but it's a matter of degrees. As the overall necessity for gaming and gunplay skill is reduced, the impact of a players stats goes up. Maybe you're happy with the new balance, and I can accept that, but I'm not (and many of the other "above average" FPS players don't seem to be either). Now, look, I'm not an elite FPS player, that's not what I'm saying, but I'm pretty proud of the fact that when I play an FPS I almost always kill more than I am killed. I've noticed that it seems like the satisfaction with this new build seems to have a direct correlation with whether or not the person in question can make such a claim... which is, IMO, a pretty big red flag for long term growth in an FPS.
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If you're saying that this style of game is bad, then you're not just saying that this build is bad. You're saying that the whole game is fundamentally flawed. Which, in all honesty, makes no sense to me. Isn't it true in every game that the people who play the most end up gaining experience and doing very well for themselves? The only difference between DUST 514 and other games is the fact that the benefits are tangible as well as experience-based.
I enjoy MMOs, and I enjoy RPGs. I LOVE the grind to get new gear, comparing stats, buying and selling, applying skill points. Hell, I was playing tabletop Dungeons and Dragons when a lot of the people on this forum were learning to tie their shoes. So, don't think that I'm simply some FPS dbag who hates other styles of gameplay. I'm just not seeing how this particular build's gameplay balance is going to be beneficial for the long term health of this game. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.10.07 01:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Madison Four wrote:Baal Roo wrote:Madison Four wrote:Apparently some folks didn't get the memo that strafing and jumping are dead and you aren't allowed to do them anymore.
I think it is fairly obvious, based on how most players react to getting shot at, that a lot of players expected this game to be more like Halo than it actually is.
kinda funny watching people in Assault suits immediately start jumping like Kriss Kross as soon as the first bullet hits them. Those idiots, expecting to be able to affect how a firefight plays out with things like skill and gun play. Don't they know that the game has now been reduced to a point and click game with a first person view? They just need to get with the program and grind away until they hit the SP cap each week so they can "compete" with all the "elite" players with the best gear. amirite? You so mad. I really don't care. I say we turn the game into Unreal Tournament 514. Complete with 20 foot jumping flipping scoped in headshots. at least it'll stop you guys from crying about it. I just find it hilarious that so many people are on the forum crying, whining, bitching and moaning that they CAN'T MOVE AT ALL AND ARE FORCED TO STAY COMPLETELY STILL AT ALL TIMES.... yet when I play in game, people dodge, weave, strafe, jump and everything you people continually cry and say that you can't do anymore, just because you want a game where everyone wears the scout suit and bunnyhops with a SMG. amirite? to hear you folks tell it, CCP has completely disabled the left joystick.
I don't know, maybe we are playing two completely different games. Every match I've been in since Codex was implemented has had almost nomovement occurring. Trying to move when someone else can see you = dead. The ONLY thing I've seen in the new build has been extremely slow blob warfare. Guys slowly trudging from a CRU in a large blob and blandly firing on the other team camping the objective, rinse repeat. There has been ALMOST ZERO dodging, weaving, strafing, or jumping. I mean, I honestly hate to sound like an ass, but maybe you're just not any good and can't shoot these guys trying to do these things, but for me it's basically SEE GUY, SHOOT GUY, GUY DIES until the match is over. There isn't any dodging or weaving because it is completely ineffective vs anyone who can aim with any level of proficiency.
They haven't COMPLETELY disabled the left joystick, that's just another obvious strawman, but they have made the left joystick fairly useless in a gunfight. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.10.07 01:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Madison Four wrote:
its no more of a strawman then "OMG YOU HAVE TO STAY UNREALISTICALLY STILL SO PEOPLE CANT SHOOT YOU!".
So, your response to my accusation that you are using strawman arguments is to build an even more ridiculous strawman? You are becoming more and more difficult to take seriously with each post you make. I mean, you can't possibly be serious can you?
Quote:
maybe we are playing two different games. Because I see jumping, dodging and strafing. I also see sprinting from cover to cover, and I see sneaking up on people and killing them before they can do anything about it.
I guess in your version of Dust 514, everyone spawns and stands exactly where they are and shoots till someone dies., because strafing isn't as easy as it was last build so why bother.
but mine doesn't do that.
Yeah, I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. I'm seeing an EXTREMELY slow paced and low skill gameplay revolving around blob warfare and using cover in a game without cover mechanics.
Obviously, people don't "spawn and stand exactly where they are and shoot til someone dies", but they do slowly careen about, firing from a mostly immobile position (or moving slowly enough that tracking their movement is extremely easy) until one person or the other is dead. It's extremely bland gameplay, probably some of the least compelling and exciting I've EVER experienced in an FPS. Plain and simple.
Quote:
and you are right, I suck at the game, and I can't shoot anyone who isn't standing completely perfectly still. thats why I play support. so now what?
Now, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, or actually admitting to being bad at FPS. If you're serious, I'm not sure why you think your opinion should have much weight in this discussion.
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either way, I for one, did not ask for the strafing to be turned down. I don't care. I'll adapt to however the game is. If that means playing cover to cover and crouch-shooting, then fine. if it means everyone wears a scout suit and a shotgun and we all do the BunnyHop Tango every game, like you all seem to want, then I'll do that too.
I do find the whining pretty funny though.
I'm glad that you're willing to play whatever game they throw at you, but most folks are considerably more discerning. I'm not going to play a slow paced, lowest common denominator, low skill, boring shooter... and as far as I can tell, a whole lot of people seem to agree. if the gameplay sucks, you'll be playing with a very small, and low skilled, player base. |
Baal Roo
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Posted - 2012.10.07 02:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Crimson MoonV wrote:Ranger SnakeBlood wrote:Crimson MoonV wrote:Ranger SnakeBlood wrote:Crimson MoonV wrote:
You have to understand that we are in this state because of all the whining from people who can't aim. The game overly caters to scrubs now. Of course you are going to be for lower strafing speeds, you are a scrub.
Anyone that supports low strafe speeds wants this games mechanics and ideals to be similar to CoD. How does that make you feel?
Here we go scubs again these forums are like clock work ill ask you a question there are games out their that have low strafe speed such as the battlefield series, ARMA, operation flash piont andthe lot are you telling me that these games are low skilled or does scrub meen something else?? Get it into yer heads there are other skills than tracking speed and evasion which are the 2 primary from last build. I'm kind of tired of explaining this to people. We are talking about gun skills. Camping in a corner or behind a rock does not take very much skill. LoL at "other types of skill." positioning does not take skill. A monkey could camp in a corner and get kills. lol at you assuing camp iam talking about tactical assults, flanking tactics, use of cover properly, getting from cover to cover, stealth, target aquirsition(thanks to tacnet is stupidly easy), supporting vulnerable units, cover fire, ya know the stuff that is actually used by the real world militarizes, also gun skills in reallife and alot of games is a damn site more than here so ya cant pull that one son bullet projection, effective ranges, chances of a clean dispatch vrs risk so on so forth you clearly are not military, Aslo positioning takes a damn site more skill than moving a analogue left and right to a pattern or typing adadadadad(oh thats some good evasion right there) depending on your preference, I will tell you one thing now using cover is a damn site more valid tactic than straffing for one very good reason what would you do if some one took a pot shot at you zig zag towards them or gtf out of their line of sight/into cover So camping and positioning takes more skill then actual gun game.  You can wiggle that left joy stick all you want. If you can't aim you can't aim. Tactics are tactics btw. I am actually a really good tactician. That has nothing to do with gun skill though. We are talking about actual gun skill. One of the worst players in mag was actually one of the best tacticians as PL. Tactics=/=Gun skill.
The thing most of these guys don't seem to understand is thay the tactics part is still there either way. What WE want is TACTICS + GUNGAME, not just half the equation like they are arguing for. They've built this false dichotomy of tactics vs. gunplay, where you can only have one or the other... and since they aren't good at gunplay, obviously tactics are more important. The other side is arguing that we should have to use those tactics while ALSO actually being required to have gun game as well. Sure, if you've got no gun game, you're happy to see gun game removed from the equation, but.if you HAVE game you'd rather have both gunplay AND tactics required to excell. |
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