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Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2012.10.06 06:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why is this here? Because I would like for it to be a locus of feedback for scout users... also, it would be flamed down in GD because it uses the word STRAFE.
Scouts. With the strafing nerf (which I honestly never noticed until explicitly told) people are beginning to complain over how scouts are now 'useless' or 'have nothing going for them'. I disagree. Scouts have many points which are either minute, but count, or are willfully ignored for the purpose of pitypoints.
Highest speed. That's a given. They may not be able to strafe to dodge bullets, but how much sense does that make anyway? It's one of those crazy things FPSs have indoctrinated us into. If a man is shot at, he takes cover or sights a return shot because he knows how much one shot actually counts for.
Smallest hitbox and sig radius. This makes scouts take the least damage from explosions, makes him the best at just not being hit, and the most important part, makes him good at flanking. A similarly named fellow in a Source game, the Scout, works off the same principle. He doesn't run up to the Heavy and his minigun and rely on strafe and bunnyhop. He flanks the fellow because he is small and easily hidden, while he has a weapon with strong alpha, a shotgun. Scouts in DUST work the same way, with the low sig making them almost never appear on the tac-net, and the high speed and small size making them able to quickly get around to a blindspot.
In short, Scout dropsuits aren't meant for a straight-up fight. They aren't meant to use their speed to dodge bullets. They are meant to use their sig to move from one cover to the next quietly, their speed to catch up to someone going the same direction as them, and their weapon choice to kill their target before they can fight back. Scout isn't about outlasting someone in a fight, it's about preventing a fight at all, about ending someone before they put their cards on the table.
And if you wanna say how that limits weapon choice, there are always more efficient weapons for different builds. Assault use AR for all around decency, Heavy use H type guns because no one else can, etc etc... but you CAN give a heavy a shotgun, even though he's too slow to close for it. You CAN give a sniper rifle to your short ranged fellow, even though the enemy will have too much going for them for you to line up the shot. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 01:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
One more thing. I currently play Heavy and notice many Scouts run up to my face from a fair distance (20-80 meters or so) and begin to unload an SMG. If these are the same players that have made strafe a word you can't use for fear or being flamed like a Precision Strike ground zero, then I have something to say about this style of play.
The SMG is a SIDEARM. It isn't meant to be powerful enough to down someone in a straight up fight. Especially if you rely on strafing, which isn't about how good you dodge, but about how well the other guy can shoot. Try it from behind, as stated in the OP, and you will have MUCH more success. |
Vincam Velmoriar
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 04:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Why is this here? Because I would like for it to be a locus of feedback for scout users... also, it would be flamed down in GD because it uses the word STRAFE.
Scouts. With the strafing nerf (which I honestly never noticed until explicitly told) people are beginning to complain over how scouts are now 'useless' or 'have nothing going for them'. I disagree. Scouts have many points which are either minute, but count, or are willfully ignored for the purpose of pitypoints.
Highest speed. That's a given. They may not be able to strafe to dodge bullets, but how much sense does that make anyway? It's one of those crazy things FPSs have indoctrinated us into. If a man is shot at, he takes cover or sights a return shot because he knows how much one shot actually counts for.
Smallest hitbox and sig radius. This makes scouts take the least damage from explosions, makes him the best at just not being hit, and the most important part, makes him good at flanking. A similarly named fellow in a Source game, the Scout, works off the same principle. He doesn't run up to the Heavy and his minigun and rely on strafe and bunnyhop. He flanks the fellow because he is small and easily hidden, while he has a weapon with strong alpha, a shotgun. Scouts in DUST work the same way, with the low sig making them almost never appear on the tac-net, and the high speed and small size making them able to quickly get around to a blindspot.
In short, Scout dropsuits aren't meant for a straight-up fight. They aren't meant to use their speed to dodge bullets. They are meant to use their sig to move from one cover to the next quietly, their speed to catch up to someone going the same direction as them, and their weapon choice to kill their target before they can fight back. Scout isn't about outlasting someone in a fight, it's about preventing a fight at all, about ending someone before they put their cards on the table.
And if you wanna say how that limits weapon choice, there are always more efficient weapons for different builds. Assault use AR for all around decency, Heavy use H type guns because no one else can, etc etc... but you CAN give a heavy a shotgun, even though he's too slow to close for it. You CAN give a sniper rifle to your short ranged fellow, even though the enemy will have too much going for them for you to line up the shot. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
I used to play as a scout, and I'd be happy to give you my feedback (though if you've seen the other threads, you've probably gotten it already).
Speed: Disagree strongly. They're 10% faster than an assault, yet have 2/3 the CPU, PG, and hit points.
Smallest hitbox. This makes them take the least damage from an explosion? The difference between the hitboxes of a scout or an assault is, what 0.3 meters? If that? Yes, they're smaller, but not by much. And because they have so little armor/shields, I can assure you, having played both a scout and now and assault, I get killed way more by explosions as a scout. It's not even close.
Completely agree they're not to be used for a straight up fight, and I'm fine with the strafing nerf. But sprinting speed? Hit box? These things are so minimal they're hardly noticed. Someone spraying an AR is going to kill a scout much quicker. The hit box might be smaller (slightly), but the hit points are way lower. The lack of speed, CPU/PG, and hit points have not made up for the smaller hitbox. |
Ghost Rogue
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.10.07 08:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think scouts are very useful... I know that because i playing for them.. i think the reason why peoples complaining is not because of their usability , but because their make sensitivity way to fast and now is almost impossible to hit somebody for close ... especially with slow shooting guns like shotguns where you need better accuracy then with smg if you wanna kill somebody. |
Unit-775
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2012.10.07 09:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:snip Smallest hitbox and sig radius. This makes scouts take the least damage from explosions, snip This isn't eve. Afaik that's a rumor. I never survived any blast because i took less damage than someone in a bigger suit, or how you explain that a heavy with high signature don't get killed from a locus grenade while a assault or scout does ? |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 17:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Unit-775 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:snip Smallest hitbox and sig radius. This makes scouts take the least damage from explosions, snip This isn't eve. Afaik that's a rumor. I never survived any blast because i took less damage than someone in a bigger suit, or how you explain that a heavy with high signature don't get killed from a locus grenade while a assault or scout does ?
The Heavy has 4x your HP, that's about it. And the grenades can one shot anything but a full health Heavy with no modules, so they are kinda powerful. Plus, the whole 'damage from explosions' thing is prevalent in other Unreal Engine shooters as well as EVE(the DUST engine and the world DUST is emulating, respectively.), the more of your hitbox the explosion covers, the more damage you take. That said, putting that next to the bonus for being at the point of contact or not it truly isn't much, but it is enough to survive. It would probably be more noticeable if the only explosive weapons weren't used for AV or powerful enough to oneshot, but I digress. |
Vincam Velmoriar
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 18:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Unit-775 wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:snip Smallest hitbox and sig radius. This makes scouts take the least damage from explosions, snip This isn't eve. Afaik that's a rumor. I never survived any blast because i took less damage than someone in a bigger suit, or how you explain that a heavy with high signature don't get killed from a locus grenade while a assault or scout does ? The Heavy has 4x your HP, that's about it. And the grenades can one shot anything but a full health Heavy with no modules, so they are kinda powerful. Plus, the whole 'damage from explosions' thing is prevalent in other Unreal Engine shooters as well as EVE(the DUST engine and the world DUST is emulating, respectively.), the more of your hitbox the explosion covers, the more damage you take. That said, putting that next to the bonus for being at the point of contact or not it truly isn't much, but it is enough to survive. It would probably be more noticeable if the only explosive weapons weren't used for AV or powerful enough to oneshot, but I digress.
I think the hit box argument is pretty weak, tbh. Did you read my post? |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
248
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Posted - 2012.10.07 21:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vincam Velmoriar wrote:
I think the hit box argument is pretty weak, tbh. Did you read my post?
agreed, it's not about the character box but the character head area which is very much the same size |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2012.10.07 22:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yes, I did read your post. The hitbox argument is meant to be combined with the speed argument. It's less about how big he is or is not, but more about how hard it is to hit a less bulky target at a much higher speed especially when hopping from cover to cover, even more so with delayed impact projectile weapons(the kind that use explosions). As for the head hitbox, a suit can't make your head smaller, the scout dropsuit is practically skintight as-is.
Also relevant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI_qwZd-p2U |
UltraMind Regenersis
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2012.10.07 23:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jobs for scouts:
You can totally flank most installations and execute the operator before hacking.
They are great for flanking snipers and executing them.
Make sure you have a drop uplink fit - being able to leave a link close to a hotly contested cap point may swing a game. Your reinforcement spawns will be back in the fight quicker.
In team games it may be convenient for scout to sit somewhere and just erm scout - watch the battle and be a good spotter for strikes and any friendly snipers.
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Nicol Bolas Planeswalker
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
102
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Posted - 2012.10.08 00:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
lol
Anything you are now doing with a scout you could do better as assault. So where does the scout now fit in? |
Johnson McCrea
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2012.10.08 02:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
I can't say Scouts are 'useless'. I have the Merc pack, so I use the Dragon Scout armor, a standard sniper rifle, and the viral Subgun for backup.
How do I use it? WAY the heck back from any shortranger as possible, usually from behind cover to gain some extra protection.
Why the cover? Cause anything above the standard Sniper Rifle will one shot me. Got to keep those with the Advanced/Prototypes guessing.
How effective is this? Bloody marvelous.
Granted, most of the FPS' I play, everybody hates it when I go into sniper mode.
If you can get a headshot, it's usually all over. I hate Heavies however.
And the idiots who sit in the back of vehicles on turrets: Cake. A non-moving (rotating doesn't count) target is begging for a bullet. Had some yutz in an Impact come to a stop so his buddy in the missile turret could shoot at my people. Took out the turreter, then the driver with one shot each. (can someone tell the Impact people they are EXPOSED, and not sharing the vehicles shield in those things?)
As for avoiding bullets when I can't any other way but run, remember: ZIG ZAG! Any one running in a straight line is just asking for it. It also allows snipers to lead the target and drop the hammer when you cross his sights.
Scouts are meant for just that: Scouting. That and parting hair at 1000 feet. |
Ghost Rogue
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.10.08 05:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker wrote:lol
Anything you are now doing with a scout you could do better as assault. So where does the scout now fit in?
I dont know what you talking about... I playing for scout and i can easy kill absolutely anybody ... Thanks mainly for Stealthness and fact im faster. As scout you just must more think before you do something because in direct combat you will die.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE SPADES
3
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
we need the cloaking modules |
Vincam Velmoriar
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
103
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Posted - 2012.10.08 22:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ghost Rogue wrote:Nicol Bolas Planeswalker wrote:lol
Anything you are now doing with a scout you could do better as assault. So where does the scout now fit in? I dont know what you talking about... I playing for scout and i can easy kill absolutely anybody ... Thanks mainly for Stealthness and fact im faster. As scout you just must more think before you do something because in direct combat you will die.
The scout is about 10% faster than the assault. When I used a scout running next to an assault, I would barely be able to pass them. The speed is not there right now. Look at the numbers, and look at the difference between the heavy and the assault, in terms of percentages, and the assault and the scout. I think you'll see what some of us are talking about. |
CaDaVeR 85
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
15
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Posted - 2012.10.09 04:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
I used to play as scout. Can't anymore since 3/4 shots from a militia AR kills me. It's almost impossible to do anything. (This has only been happening this build). |
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