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Styrnkaar Valkeris
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.09.10 06:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've noticed that some people have issues with the current set up of weapons, so I'd like to submit that it's less of an 'overpowered' problem and more of a tactical error in judgement. I think the same thought is also being brought up against Tanks, Drop Ships, and Aurum - Based weaponry.
Consider if you will that most of the high-end gear ( and therefore the Aurum - Based weapons) are naturally going to be more effective. The lower end to mid-range weapon weapons have detestable kick-back and do less damage, but the cost is negligible considering how much you can earn back per match. Why should so gear so incredibly cheap be as effective as the most expensive? And wouldn't that make leveling anything up in those categories fairly pointless?
So what if the upper tier of weapons have incredible power! The top assault guns can tear through all suits in seconds, the top sniper rifles can down people in a hit or two, the top grenades have incredibly damage and range. The same is true of armor, in that you can boost your armor to be able to withstand even the upper tier weapons long enough to react. Things tend to balance to about the same as the start once people get leveled up ( with the exception that the guns feel more accurate).
The point is that every class and vehicle supports the team through different functions. Assault clears the way, Logistics supply and set up forward positions, Heavies defend against vehicles, Scouts give covering fire and long-range support to everyone else. Drop Ships harass enemy positions while delivering troops (but are very vulnerable to excessive heavy weapon fire), Tanks provide the power to punch through positions that are otherwise unbreakable, and the light vehicle give the quick speed and damage you need to get to objectives.
Getting killed by snipers, or gunned down by high-speed assault guns, or destroyed by vehicles is not the fault of the enemy team for using their preferred weapon. It's a problem of teamwork and/or situational awareness for the side you're fighting on.
Level up, work together, and win. |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 06:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Styrnkaar Valkeris wrote:Level up, work together, and win.
don't forget blue dots can't be trusted |
Daedra Lord9
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2012.09.10 06:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I dunno, I've always kinda felt that heavies should be able to either take a bit more armor damage, or have a slight passive armor regen. They don't seem like the tanks they should feel like (and no, I don't expect to literally be a walking tank, just take a couple more AR bullets to kill) |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 06:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Daedra Lord9 wrote:I dunno, I've always kinda felt that heavies should be able to either take a bit more armor damage, or have a slight passive armor regen. They don't seem like the tanks they should feel like (and no, I don't expect to literally be a walking tank, just take a couple more AR bullets to kill)
yes the fatties have really suffered from the dropsuit hp nerf more than anyone else I would say, and they really need the hp back or else they will remain sad, slow, waddling targets |
Leither Yiltron
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
417
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Posted - 2012.09.10 06:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
You would have fit right in on SVER.
The truth of the matter is that teamwork is a very important part of game balance, but it is not a catch-all solution to balance problems. When hundreds of beta players observe that the anti-vehicle abilities are terribly underpowered, that's not something you can brush aside with a "well teamwork solves everything". The truth is, teamwork helps a lot, but teamwork doesn't solve numbers problems. To go even further, we, as a community, can identify balance problems even without being able to team up as extensively as we might in the full release.
That being said, nothing beats hard numbers. I can't wait to get my hands on full corporation support. |
Cinder Integ
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
23
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Posted - 2012.09.10 06:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sleepy Zan wrote:Daedra Lord9 wrote:I dunno, I've always kinda felt that heavies should be able to either take a bit more armor damage, or have a slight passive armor regen. They don't seem like the tanks they should feel like (and no, I don't expect to literally be a walking tank, just take a couple more AR bullets to kill) yes the fatties have really suffered from the dropsuit hp nerf more than anyone else I would say, and they really need the hp back or else they will remain sad, slow, waddling targets
Militia rifle clip easily unloads into them usually killing by the time it runs dry, and if not lack of mobility leaves too much time for the enemy of a heavy to hide and reload. +1 to de-nerfing heavies |
Zerlathon
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
213
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Posted - 2012.09.10 07:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
I do find it frustrating when I am playing with a group of lemmings.
But there's not alot I can do about it, they are pub games, so I just have to do my best. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 07:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
heavy could get A)hp back B) more low slots at advance and proto C)a role ability that removes speed penalty of armour plates and/or boosts the effect of armour repairs equipped
Any of three could work, I like b the best. All dropsuits will eventually get bonuses per level of their dropship skill, c could be one of the heavies bonuses. Extra slot for plates could restore the lost hp, with option to fit something else instead.
So, I suggest heavy buff of +1 low slot at adv and additional +1 low slot at proto. A shield tanked heavy like type-ii would get extra high slots instead, caldari heavies will probably shield tank. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
811
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 07:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
The problem is that currently, tanks are extremely good at EVERYTHING. There's no real drawback to using them, and there are no really good evenly matched counters for their effectiveness besides... Other tanks. So, most games are beginning to very quickly escalate into tank vs. tank vs. tank vs tank battles. They are simply overshadowing all other aspects of the game. I don't think anyone wants anything to be useless, and no one is arguing that there's no role for tanks in this game, it's just there needs to be MULTIPLE ways for a group of 3 or 4 guys to as easily take out a tank after spending similar amounts of SP and ISK as it is for 2 or 3 guys in a tank to take out 2 or 3 infantrymen in high end Dropsuits. |
Styrnkaar Valkeris
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 16:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well, my point was that it's not about powering down things that are currently really good. What we should be doing is asking to have the antithesis of the best things get powered up. And yes, teamwork is not a catch-all ( considering you need competent players ), but your use of tools can drastically improve the effectiveness of a concentrated squad effort.
Tanks have somewhere between 900 - 3120 shields, not including bonuses. Even the most basic flux grenades do 1200 damage to electronics/shields, and they get an additional 300 dmg for each improved version. A mid-range flux grenade can take out the shields of basically any tank in two shots.
Forge guns can similarly do 900 - 1500 damage at base, and gets an additional 100-ish damage per level. If the tanks will have armor that is in direct opposition to the shields, so somewhere in the same range (1000 - 3200), which means once again it's only a hit or two to actually cut through a tank's armor.
On larger, open maps I can see how that might be an issue, assuming you have no other vehicle support. On maps that feel smaller ( via alleys, walls, structures, etc), you have the tools at your disposal to take down even the high end multi-million ISK tanks in 5 well placed hits.
A good Drop Ship can out-maneuver a tank and with a proper set up can destroy them without too much difficulty. It should take about 10-15 direct hits with missile turrets. Drop Ships currently have a lot of issues with swarm launchers, so I'd like to see some sort of manual defense a pilot can deploy to avoid them ( at a 25-30 second cooldown).
Either way you just need the right gear, or a good Drop Ship pilot and gunner. I'll definitely agree that I'd like to see other ways to combat tanks, as Baal Roo suggests. They do have anti-vehicle grenades, but you'd have to have a full group of people throwing tons of them at the tank. There has to be some sort of hidden damage modifier if it actually hits vehicle armor, or those need to get their damage improved.
On a side note, however, Heavies definitely do need to feel more dangerous than they currently are. I'd love to see the Heavies get boosted up in armor, or at least be able to utilize a much better armor / shield bonus module. Until they can get a superior version of a shield & armor boost, it might be worth it to max out the speed biotic boost so they can at least move at about 4.0 meters/sec, versus their current 3.6 (in comparison to logistics 4.7, Assault 5, and scout 5.7). |
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Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
811
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 17:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Styrnkaar Valkeris wrote:Well, my point was that it's not about powering down things that are currently really good. What we should be doing is asking to have the antithesis of the best things get powered up. And yes, teamwork is not a catch-all ( considering you need competent players ), but your use of tools can drastically improve the effectiveness of a concentrated squad effort.
Tanks have somewhere between 900 - 3120 shields, not including bonuses. Even the most basic flux grenades do 1200 damage to electronics/shields, and they get an additional 300 dmg for each improved version. A mid-range flux grenade can take out the shields of basically any tank in two shots.
Forge guns can similarly do 900 - 1500 damage at base, and gets an additional 100-ish damage per level. If the tanks will have armor that is in direct opposition to the shields, so somewhere in the same range (1000 - 3200), which means once again it's only a hit or two to actually cut through a tank's armor.
Why wouldn't we include bonuses? My LAV has about 3000 HP, most tanks are closer to 8000 and have damage reduction on them as well. Your numbers are just plain old wrong. Considering most tanks have AT LEAST 25% reduction, and about 8000 HP, we're talking 9 or 10 flux grenades, and somewhere in the ballpark of 7-15 forge gun shots (using your numbers) to take out something that can kill anyone else in 1 to 2 shots (of which there are 3 guys firing said shots at once). For a group of high end AVers to take out a tank requires immaculate team work, for a tank to take out a group of AVers requires the tank to leisurely drive into their general vicinity and fire off high splash damage shots into their general area.
If it's a matter of cost/reward, then hell, QUADRUPLE the price of prototype swarm launchers and forge guns. Give us AV grenades that cost 500k ISK a pop, but non-tank users need viable (but balanced) ways to deal with tanks that are as powerful (and expensive) as tanks themselves or we will continue to see most matches with good players devolve into tank vs tank vs tank vs tank vs tank vs tank battles.
I've spent many a match on BOTH sides of that fight, and it's heavily heavily heavily pitched in the tanks favor currently... humorously so. I was in a match just the other night where my squad went 79-1 for the round by rolling a couple of MID LEVEL tanks around together with reppers (and the 79-1 isn't counting the other two guys that weren't from our squad manning the other two missile turrets). The other team was almost ALL running AV by the end of the round, but with 5 guys all firing HIGH damage missiles at anything that moves while the 6th was repping meant none of them could get off enough shots before dying to take us down.
We used 8 orbital strikes that game as a squad, and I think we had more stacked up waiting that we never got around to using.
Quote: On larger, open maps I can see how that might be an issue, assuming you have no other vehicle support. On maps that feel smaller ( via alleys, walls, structures, etc), you have the tools at your disposal to take down even the high end multi-million ISK tanks in 5 well placed hits.
A good Drop Ship can out-maneuver a tank and with a proper set up can destroy them without too much difficulty. It should take about 10-15 direct hits with missile turrets. Drop Ships currently have a lot of issues with swarm launchers, so I'd like to see some sort of manual defense a pilot can deploy to avoid them ( at a 25-30 second cooldown).
And a tank can take out a dropship in half that many shots. Again, it's just not a properly balanced scenario. Although, I'm not convinced DROPSHIPS should be particularly useful for destroying much of anything, so I don't think that disparity is a problem. I'm just saying that your DS solution isn't a particularly good one (or accurately described).
Quote: Either way you just need the right gear, or a good Drop Ship pilot and gunner. I'll definitely agree that I'd like to see other ways to combat tanks, as Baal Roo suggests. They do have anti-vehicle grenades, but you'd have to have a full group of people throwing tons of them at the tank. There has to be some sort of hidden damage modifier if it actually hits vehicle armor, or those need to get their damage improved.
On a side note, however, Heavies definitely do need to feel more dangerous than they currently are. I'd love to see the Heavies get boosted up in armor, or at least be able to utilize a much better armor / shield bonus module. Until they can get a superior version of a shield & armor boost, it might be worth it to max out the speed biotic boost so they can at least move at about 4.0 meters/sec, versus their current 3.6 (in comparison to logistics 4.7, Assault 5, and scout 5.7).
I haven't spent any time in heavies this build, but they do seem awfully easy to take down most of the time. |
DestrukterDust
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 17:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Styrnkaar Valkeris wrote:I've noticed that some people have issues with the current set up of weapons, so I'd like to submit that it's less of an 'overpowered' problem and more of a tactical error in judgement. I think the same thought is also being brought up against Tanks, Drop Ships, and Aurum - Based weaponry.
Consider if you will that most of the high-end gear ( and therefore the Aurum - Based weapons) are naturally going to be more effective. The lower end to mid-range weapon weapons have detestable kick-back and do less damage, but the cost is negligible considering how much you can earn back per match. Why should so gear so incredibly cheap be as effective as the most expensive? And wouldn't that make leveling anything up in those categories fairly pointless?
So what if the upper tier of weapons have incredible power! The top assault guns can tear through all suits in seconds, the top sniper rifles can down people in a hit or two, the top grenades have incredibly damage and range. The same is true of armor, in that you can boost your armor to be able to withstand even the upper tier weapons long enough to react. Things tend to balance to about the same as the start once people get leveled up ( with the exception that the guns feel more accurate).
The point is that every class and vehicle supports the team through different functions. Assault clears the way, Logistics supply and set up forward positions, Heavies defend against vehicles, Scouts give covering fire and long-range support to everyone else. Drop Ships harass enemy positions while delivering troops (but are very vulnerable to excessive heavy weapon fire), Tanks provide the power to punch through positions that are otherwise unbreakable, and the light vehicle give the quick speed and damage you need to get to objectives.
Getting killed by snipers, or gunned down by high-speed assault guns, or destroyed by vehicles is not the fault of the enemy team for using their preferred weapon. It's a problem of teamwork and/or situational awareness for the side you're fighting on.
Level up, work together, and win.
+1 |
Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 17:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
I like the sentiment, but there are still some problems to be resolved.
Styrnkaar Valkeris wrote:Tanks have somewhere between 900 - 3120 shields, not including bonuses. Even the most basic flux grenades do 1200 damage to electronics/shields, and they get an additional 300 dmg for each improved version. A mid-range flux grenade can take out the shields of basically any tank in two shots.
Forge guns can similarly do 900 - 1500 damage at base, and gets an additional 100-ish damage per level. If the tanks will have armor that is in direct opposition to the shields, so somewhere in the same range (1000 - 3200), which means once again it's only a hit or two to actually cut through a tank's armor. Without bonuses. Remember that module bonuses can absorb over 50% of that damage. You can add modules to increase the damage of your guns, but to about (I believe, after diminishing returns) 18%. And if the tank's modules are absorbing 50% of the damage, that means you need to do 100% more damage to negate the effect.
Also, flux grenades are bugged, so that's not working as intended right now. We'll see how well the flux grenades work once they, you know, work.
Styrnkaar Valkeris wrote:Drop Ships currently have a lot of issues with swarm launchers, so I'd like to see some sort of manual defense a pilot can deploy to avoid them ( at a 25-30 second cooldown). Manual defense of some sort might be nice, although I'd rather see some kind of teamwork defense. Defense measures deployed by someone on the ground, for example.
Styrnkaar Valkeris wrote:On a side note, however, Heavies definitely do need to feel more dangerous than they currently are. Amen. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 17:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thanks for your insightful views.
There are however issues that team play cannot fix or issues that if the problem in question where to use teamwork as well it would be disastrous.
currently however HAVs are getting their round of nerfs so hopefully they'll be more on balanced as a squad assets instead of solo pwn mobiles because currently HAVs are not team centric as an allied unit. |
Styrnkaar Valkeris
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 20:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ah, my bad, I definitely should have taken bonuses and damage reduction into account. But, my point was that there are still tools you can use to take down tanks (although some are apparently broken right now, like the flux grenades?). And, like I said at the beginning of that post, we should be asking for those AV tools to be powered up to combat the excessive use of tanks that you mention is so effective.
I'd rather have tanks as a reliable option to use in a variety of situations than as a -hopefully- useful tool in specific situations.
Drop Ships can take down tanks, even if a good return shot or two could destroy them. If you stay above them, and your gunners concentrate fire on them, they will go down without too much trouble (even if it takes a while). It's generally only viable if you only have one or two tanks at a time to deal with, though.
Out of curiosity, Do you actually keep your tank after the end of the match if it hasn't been destroyed? I haven't gotten my vehicle command up enough to try it out, but the DS's I've used don't appear to stay even if I am piloting them safely.
And to Goric: I definitely could see having a person other than the pilot doing the lock-on missile negation be interesting. Maybe one of the passengers in the DS, even? |
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