Baal Roo
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2012.09.10 07:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
The problem is that currently, tanks are extremely good at EVERYTHING. There's no real drawback to using them, and there are no really good evenly matched counters for their effectiveness besides... Other tanks. So, most games are beginning to very quickly escalate into tank vs. tank vs. tank vs tank battles. They are simply overshadowing all other aspects of the game. I don't think anyone wants anything to be useless, and no one is arguing that there's no role for tanks in this game, it's just there needs to be MULTIPLE ways for a group of 3 or 4 guys to as easily take out a tank after spending similar amounts of SP and ISK as it is for 2 or 3 guys in a tank to take out 2 or 3 infantrymen in high end Dropsuits. |
Baal Roo
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
811
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Posted - 2012.09.10 17:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Styrnkaar Valkeris wrote:Well, my point was that it's not about powering down things that are currently really good. What we should be doing is asking to have the antithesis of the best things get powered up. And yes, teamwork is not a catch-all ( considering you need competent players ), but your use of tools can drastically improve the effectiveness of a concentrated squad effort.
Tanks have somewhere between 900 - 3120 shields, not including bonuses. Even the most basic flux grenades do 1200 damage to electronics/shields, and they get an additional 300 dmg for each improved version. A mid-range flux grenade can take out the shields of basically any tank in two shots.
Forge guns can similarly do 900 - 1500 damage at base, and gets an additional 100-ish damage per level. If the tanks will have armor that is in direct opposition to the shields, so somewhere in the same range (1000 - 3200), which means once again it's only a hit or two to actually cut through a tank's armor.
Why wouldn't we include bonuses? My LAV has about 3000 HP, most tanks are closer to 8000 and have damage reduction on them as well. Your numbers are just plain old wrong. Considering most tanks have AT LEAST 25% reduction, and about 8000 HP, we're talking 9 or 10 flux grenades, and somewhere in the ballpark of 7-15 forge gun shots (using your numbers) to take out something that can kill anyone else in 1 to 2 shots (of which there are 3 guys firing said shots at once). For a group of high end AVers to take out a tank requires immaculate team work, for a tank to take out a group of AVers requires the tank to leisurely drive into their general vicinity and fire off high splash damage shots into their general area.
If it's a matter of cost/reward, then hell, QUADRUPLE the price of prototype swarm launchers and forge guns. Give us AV grenades that cost 500k ISK a pop, but non-tank users need viable (but balanced) ways to deal with tanks that are as powerful (and expensive) as tanks themselves or we will continue to see most matches with good players devolve into tank vs tank vs tank vs tank vs tank vs tank battles.
I've spent many a match on BOTH sides of that fight, and it's heavily heavily heavily pitched in the tanks favor currently... humorously so. I was in a match just the other night where my squad went 79-1 for the round by rolling a couple of MID LEVEL tanks around together with reppers (and the 79-1 isn't counting the other two guys that weren't from our squad manning the other two missile turrets). The other team was almost ALL running AV by the end of the round, but with 5 guys all firing HIGH damage missiles at anything that moves while the 6th was repping meant none of them could get off enough shots before dying to take us down.
We used 8 orbital strikes that game as a squad, and I think we had more stacked up waiting that we never got around to using.
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On larger, open maps I can see how that might be an issue, assuming you have no other vehicle support. On maps that feel smaller ( via alleys, walls, structures, etc), you have the tools at your disposal to take down even the high end multi-million ISK tanks in 5 well placed hits.
A good Drop Ship can out-maneuver a tank and with a proper set up can destroy them without too much difficulty. It should take about 10-15 direct hits with missile turrets. Drop Ships currently have a lot of issues with swarm launchers, so I'd like to see some sort of manual defense a pilot can deploy to avoid them ( at a 25-30 second cooldown).
And a tank can take out a dropship in half that many shots. Again, it's just not a properly balanced scenario. Although, I'm not convinced DROPSHIPS should be particularly useful for destroying much of anything, so I don't think that disparity is a problem. I'm just saying that your DS solution isn't a particularly good one (or accurately described).
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Either way you just need the right gear, or a good Drop Ship pilot and gunner. I'll definitely agree that I'd like to see other ways to combat tanks, as Baal Roo suggests. They do have anti-vehicle grenades, but you'd have to have a full group of people throwing tons of them at the tank. There has to be some sort of hidden damage modifier if it actually hits vehicle armor, or those need to get their damage improved.
On a side note, however, Heavies definitely do need to feel more dangerous than they currently are. I'd love to see the Heavies get boosted up in armor, or at least be able to utilize a much better armor / shield bonus module. Until they can get a superior version of a shield & armor boost, it might be worth it to max out the speed biotic boost so they can at least move at about 4.0 meters/sec, versus their current 3.6 (in comparison to logistics 4.7, Assault 5, and scout 5.7).
I haven't spent any time in heavies this build, but they do seem awfully easy to take down most of the time. |