Totally understand. I am not trying to say anything except players need to stop assuming that no one is grouping against these tanks. That night we slayed maybe 10 tanks total.( maybe 4 standard) But many was due to the driver not running away.
We are talking very dedicated AV. The kind that have a hard time fighting infantry. The tank speed is insane and shield mods that are broke in their favor do not help.

A dedicated team should have very little issue dealing with standard and below. Black ops is another story.

Let me clear the story up too. Once we snuck up on it...hailing 9 AV nades in one huge volley. Did not kill it .....got very close. Then we laid in it with our swarms and forge.... my swarms misfired (the dumb glitch that makes your swarms just not dumb fire).

To say the least we could not have done much more....I repeat...miltia tank.

Post meant for Paran Tadec, who believes this current EZ mode state is due to the lack of AV and his awesome tank skills.

I almost threw up after typing that last sentence.

In all honesty, the role of the HAV needs to be further elaborated upon. This fluctuation between buffing and nerfing the equipment (weapons, dropsuits, and vehicles alike), granted is a necessary aspect of a beta, seems to me to be TOO much of a play to the crowd (the herd-poison infecting the demagogues, interesting??!!??) rather than it being a complete application of of a pre-existing plan and role for the equipment being deployed upon the battlefield.

IN a contemporary time line, i.e., now, a tank on the battlefield is a game changer. For both sides. And they are able to get up to speed quite easily (given the advent and usage of such a thing like a 1500 HP jet turbine - M1A3). And we are supposed to be partaking in a universe that has galactic travel, consciousness transference, and other gloriously imaginative things. If history has played a part (a history of a sorts, not necessarily our history) then the HAV (tank) should also be a game changer. They should not be easy to kill now, made so because they are SOOO expensive. So why should someone that is not operating the equipment, let alone fielding it, make it their job to shorten the lifespan of said equipment because some people on the ground that have decided NOT to skill in the directions necessary to handle given situations. Essentially this is the idea that if I am a proper tanker/tank commander, why should I be limited in how long I am able to furnish the survival of my equipment? CCP hasn't done that to EVE players and their ships (Granted EVE has gone through a number of iterations and balancing issues over the last 10 years). If you play in EVE and you are able to PVP and PVE without loosing your ship, you are not penalized by your skill. If anything you are rewarded because you don't have to spend the ISK to regather the modules and the ship hull to rebuild for favorite ship. Instead you get to bank the cash and work on other ventures.

Why, as DUSTERS, are we being placed into a different frame of mind and understanding, if ultimately we are doing this for the money, and there is no better way to make money than by not dying (if at all possible) and maintaining the same equipment (i.e., not having to spend the money to replace gear unnecessarily). If there is an issue with the survivability of certain pieces of equipment, un-nerf the forge guns and bring into play other pieces of AV gear to help balance this issue. That is what we do today in warfare; we don't go to our enemies and say "BTW, that tank you guys are fielding, well .... I can't seem to destroy the damn thing. Can you thin up the armor and have your guys drive slower so I can blow it up?"

They would look at you like you are crazy, laugh at you, and then call in their own OB/OS.

Without the balance of the market items being available to the players to see how that equipment and the fielding of said equipment begins to fill the gaps left by or produced by the fielding of the existing gear, this constant catering to these OP's inability to work in teams, use the in-game comms, and problem solve on the fly (this is an issue I see with this younger generation of players and people) is only going to cause more headaches for the developers and programers down the road as they realize that they have to change everything back because the adjustments they made to cater to these people was really unfounded and not based upon the entire reality being presented. It was based upon a reality as seen through the eyes of some horse with blinders on (i.e., narrow and limited).

I say this in relation to the fact that the nerfs and buffs that have occurred since the initial build that hit back in December of this year have been so extreme as to cause a number of people to become very polarized about eh game, about CCP's ability to produce the product and experience that have envisioned, and produce a product that is not only true to themselves, but also true to the new community of DUSTERS and EVE pilots. There is a new community that is being created amongst an existing community (as it always happens - fusing and fissioning).

What I see is this; a lot of those individuals that want everything to work perfect now with only a fraction of the game mechanics and equipment available are out of their minds. We are still in the beta phase, which does mean the exploration of what is and what could be. Yet the thing that I find interesting is the fact that we (as a collective group of people within this beta) seem to forget that CCP has dedicated themselves to producing a longer term product and experience. Not just another COD, BF, BFBC, MOH or any other of the once great FPS games (and I have enjoyed them all at one point in time or another). Those were games that were only single iterations in a line of a hopeful franchise.

Rather DUST, much like EVE, I would rather describe it as being almost and entity in it of itself. A game that will grow and evolve as the players and CCP does. It seems to me that their intentions with DUST are along the same lines as what they have intended and have fought hard to produce in EVE.

So lets hold off on OVER NERFING CCP, please!?!!?! I feel that we have only seen the 10% of the ice berg that happens to exist above water. The other 90% is waiting to be discovered and revealed to us. So blowing off the top of it is not going to show what lies beneath the surface. We need to be guided, but we also need to be understanding and patient.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was New Eden. So what is driving us to expect that DUST should be now?

The biggest thing in these posts that has rung true for me is the mention that tanks in future builds will NEED infantry to accomplish tasks on the field and remain safe. Infantry cover the tank and the tank covers the infantry.

The problem right now is the ability of a tank to ride right up an infantry with no worry, even if the infantry formation includes an AV team. I think if the speed reduction comes through this will go a long way to helping this situation.

A really good article about tanks working closely with infantry can be found here:

http://www.efour4ever.com/infantry_tanks.htm

Personally I would love a way for infantry to mount onto a tank and go for a ride WW2 style.

Against who, a team of random noobs? Tankers shouldnt be punished for using their equipment correctly, which lets me get away 90% of the time. Often when the enemy team does come at me with AV gear I either have to back off or charge through them. AV against tanks right now is fine when opposition brings it onto the field and uses it correctly.

STOP THE HANDHOLDING. Its just like all of those pathetic highsec miners who begged for more nerfs to suicide ganking until finally CCP gave the mining barges battleship HP.

So you somehow think its balanced to need 3/4 completely AV specced enemies to destroy you?
Enemies who can't keep up, who can be OHK'd easily by you, and whose AV weapons take much longer to kill your tank ?
You can simply run away and repair faster than they can catch you. In the process your team alphas them and make them lose several extremely expensive suits?

The cost/benefit ratio should be roughly equal between AV & HAVs if they are balanced. Currently HAVs give far more payout than a pure AV fit would.

Also, thats 3-4 less players contributing to he enemy team to cap objectives. Id your team calls in 2 HAVs, now there are roughly 6-8 enemies trying to manage only 2 of you...

And in the process, the AV players by completely skilling into AV just to take down your tank have made themselves useless for any other situation.

Does this mean a non AV should be able to take out a tank? No.

It does mean that two AV players should be able to drive off several enemy tanks though, if they are smart about it.

Currently the only way to take out a tank is to concentrate a bunch of swarms on it at once and hope youcan knock it out before you run off.

Rock, paper, scissors.

AV needs de-nerfed, tank speed needs slowed down, and web nades need put in the game.

With these tools, a AV fit should be able to handle a tank if specced well. It should still take some effort for non AVs to drive off a tank. But an AV should really be able to take out a tank with only 1 or two people.

My 2 ISK

It doesnt require an expensive suit to kill a tank. me and one other guy took out a well specced gunnlogi with swarms and AV grenades in a few seconds. Also, its pretty hard to OHK a heavy with a forgegun using a railgun, unless you directly hit them.

Same could be said for tanks, you can't cap objectives in a tank, while using AV you certainly can cap an objective. My AV fit uses swarms and submachine gun, and I can get kills with both, so stop QQing.

On a tank heavy team there is no need to cap points... you just kill them faster than your mcc drops.

These tank guys are getting kind of desperate to hold onto their e-peens. How does it not get boring in there? I have even less fun on the winning side of a tank domination match.

The game completely breaks down: one side scrambling just to survive for a few more seconds and the other roaming around looking for kills. No tactics. No challenge. Just a charnel house. Entertaining only to an e-peen stroking, griefer mentality, and ultimately poisonous to the game community's long term prospects.

I've never seen that happen, even when our team had 3-4 tanks and dropships.

If you play it right you should be able to play with 0 deaths. I've seen people have zero deaths even with multiple tanks on the opposition. I'm not saying the tanks should be invincible, they are fine as they are now, it just requires a little bit of communication and teamwork to take them out quickly, as the SP and ISK investment are quite higher. Read those posts I linked from guys using AV.

Cause you whiners will continue to whine until you can single handedly bring down a tank with an assault rifle, just like EVE's carebears whined until CCP removed one of the most exciting highsec events.

Removed? Lol. Suicide ganking is quite possible still you just need to ship scan for the idiots that dont fit tanks.

Whole reason why they stopped fitting tanks was to lower cost of the ship, you couldnt reasonably get a miner's EHP high enough cost effectively against some of the newer ships before concord showed up.

What game are you playing? The majority of those miners are AFK while they mine, or before, used botting software. After the concord buff even a slight tank was enough to hold on until concord showed up and killed the offender, unless you used multiple pilots. Hulkageddon was one of the few things that brought excitement and danger to the Dullscape that is HighSec.

Only reason null is dull is because the carebears are too afraid to venture out of highsec, because they might actually have to learn how to fit correctly. There is a vast amount of room in null for players, most of them are just too scared to try to take it.

QQ harder please.

So when are they going to fix the hit dection issues and the horrible grenade arch? I dont care about the HAV's and the snipers they are only minor annoyances, what I care about are the BASIC FPS mechanics being top notch. Remember this is a FPS not world of tanks or battleship galactica.

So the arguments that took place in irc about sniper rifles is important? Because the dust forums don't seem to reflect this? Maybe someone could post their arguments for or against. Since this seems to be important to the irc/ devs.

It is discouraging to see so many odd nerfs and buffs. With no real rime or reason may come from the irc.

Silly really. Yes I should be in there and not here the official forums. What was I thinking face palm

Tanks are kinda OP.

I decided to try my hand at tanking yesterday and using only a militia sica with militia gear, I went something like 87-8 all day. 3 of the deaths were from rolling out of bounds and blowing up due to not paying attention, 4 were from high level tanks picking on me, only 1 was from ground troops, and it took quite a few of them to pull it off.

And this was in a tank so cheap that even if I lose one per match, I can still come out ahead on ISK.

That is what we do today in warfare; we don't go to our enemies and say "BTW, that tank you guys are fielding, well .... I can't seem to destroy the damn thing. Can you thin up the armor and have your guys drive slower so I can blow it up?"

They would look at you like you are crazy, laugh at you, and then call in their own OB/OS.