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Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Here's hoping we see a MUCH more passive skilling system at release, much more like EVE.
I really do hope not, the one thing I hate about Eve is that nothing you do affects your character outside of purchasing items for isk, so the people who joined first are the uber leet and everyone else has 0 chance of catching up. That's just the rich stay the rich and everyone else can suck it. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 14:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
WICKED STITCHES wrote:Goliath Raven wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Here's hoping we see a MUCH more passive skilling system at release, much more like EVE.
I really do hope not, the one thing I hate about Eve is that nothing you do affects your character outside of purchasing items for isk, so the people who joined first are the uber leet and everyone else has 0 chance of catching up. That's just the rich stay the rich and everyone else can suck it. That isn't even close to accurate. You may have 150m SP, but only 25m (arbitrary number) apply with any given ship and fit at a maximum. As in Eve you can skill to spec in something and be just as effective at that role as someone years older. The difference is a combination of battlefield/situational experience and teamwork combined with leadership. To say that nothing affects your character outside of buying things for ISK , or that a new player cannot match a vet (within game mechanics) kinda pegs you for someone that doesn't understand what this and that game have to offer in the way of tools and potential. New players often put a beat down on "vets" with 1/10th the SP, as well as extract billions in ISK from players 6 yrs their senior in game time.
You kind of just made my point, battles in eve are situational, and a character that has more ships maxed out can adjust to the situations a lot easier then a character who is only speced into one role. People who have been on eve longer have more skill points to place into their characters, nothing a new player does can close that skill point gap, therefor people with more time in eve have an advantage. It's kind of an accountants game. Keep a good schedule and have good math skills and your character will be the best it can be in game. Then it all comes down to your in battle strategy. However I don't like this mechanic. I think people who do well should be rewarded well, and not just with isk. The people who are the best skilled at a game should have the uber characters, not the oldest. That goes doubly for an fps.
Skilled players will always find a way to overcome that disadvantage but to pretend it's not there because there is a max skill point for certain ships?
Let's imagine they implement a similar time based leveling system into dust. Your on the battle field and a relatively new player speced into Max level HAV drops on the field. He is the perfect HAV pilot but he is playing against a beta corp. Every player on the other side is speced into max HAV, AV, Assault, blah blah blah. It's no problem for the beta team to stop by a supply depot and have four or six players to switch to proto AV and completely make that one character, no matter how good he is useless for the rest of the battle. He can switch to militia Assault gear but then they AV guys can just switch to proto Assault and he's outnumbered with a disadvantage. Now let's say he overcomes that disadvantage somehow and wins a 4 on one militia vs proto duke fest. Truly an uber player!, here is some isk, maybe you can use it to buy a new tank. Blah. No, he is uber and should be on the fast track to proto gear. My opinion. The best in the game should have the uber sp chars, they earned it. Not because they were first, but because they were better. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 14:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Villanor Aquarius wrote:
Teamwork. You are missing it. A new group of players specced into well supporting roles with few skillpoints can easily handle these "insurmountable elite" you seem to despise.
That tank driver backed up by a few specced Assault guys and a few logi can easily handle the combinations those multi specced guys throw at them because both sides have a well rounded setup out at all times that has every role of it specced well.
Get a team, work together, spec for a role, support each other and you'll be successful.
My eve character is not that highly skilled (20mill sp) but I have often gone into a fight with maybe five corpmates and killed 8 man gangs or similar size gangs of most likely higher sp.
Smart fittings and good roles win the day. You are definitely rewarded for play time regardless of active sp because that play time is what gives you the knowledge of what works in what situation. How to best deal with shotgun kittens. The skill at killing LAVs with AV grenades from behind crazy obstacles. The field presence to know where best to be as Logi and when you can revive someone or when you'll just be a second body.
Get into a group plan your builds out together to cover all the roles needed and work together. A squad of 4 can easily handle any group that comes at them. A logi an Assault a forge heavy and a wild card with the AV nades on two of those people and AP weapons on all but the heavy and you have a well rounded squad that can handle pretty much any situation they run into.
Again skilled players will always overcome the disadvantage. And lets keep track of the definitions of a player and a character. A player being the living, breathing, skilled, strategizing person, and a character being the skill point bucket avatar in game. In my opinion, skilled, dedicated players or teams thereof, should be the players with the best characters. Best character being determined by skill point total. Is there anything else measure a character by? I do not believe that the first players to join a game, no matter how terrible they are at it, should be rewarded with the highest sp characters in said game for no other reason then they were first.
I don't believe there are "insurmountable elite". I never even used that phrase. Perhapse you are confused by my use of the term Uber which is German for "Above" or "Greater". I don't think there are "insurmountable elite". I simply don't believe there should be a reward for being the first in a game. It's silly to me. This is not a race, it is a contest of skill. Reward the skilled, not the first. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 15:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dzark Kill wrote:Goliath Raven wrote:
Again skilled players will always overcome the disadvantage. And lets keep track of the definitions of a player and a character. A player being the living, breathing, skilled, strategizing person, and a character being the skill point bucket avatar in game. In my opinion, skilled, dedicated players or teams thereof, should be the players with the best characters. Best character being determined by skill point total. Is there anything else measure a character by? I do not believe that the first players to join a game, no matter how terrible they are at it, should be rewarded with the highest sp characters in said game for no other reason then they were first.
I don't believe there are "insurmountable elite". I never even used that phrase. Perhapse you are confused by my use of the term Uber which is German for "Above" or "Greater". I don't think there are "insurmountable elite". I simply don't believe there should be a reward for being the first in a game. It's silly to me. This is not a race, it is a contest of skill. Reward the skilled, not the first.
Skill is rewarded in that with skill you get more WP and that means more ISK and SP. Passive SP gives casual gamers (skilled or non-skilled) a chance to not fall too far behind those with time to play 18hrs a day SP are not an I WIN button. SP's still require skill to utilise. You can have all your gunnery skills up to Lvl 5 but if you cannot aim to begin with those points are useless. All defence skills to lvl 5 but if you stand still in the open you still die quick. The "firsts" as you call them are rewarded with as many SP in a day as a Skilled player can make in a match meaning a skilled player will always catch an unskilled casual even with diminishing returns. And this is more related to a common misconception IGÇÖve seen all over this thread. You could start Eve today, Scam, steal, beg, kill or trade for ISK make enough ISK in any way you can think and once you have saved enough you can buy a 150 million SP Character LEGALLY for the Isk you made. The possibilities in Eve are endless. If you were a rich casual you could also spend RL money on PLEX and sell them in game for ISK and use that to buy a high SP character.
Someone was suggesting that the sp only be rewarded based off time, like it is in eve. No sp for active gaming, only passive sp. To be clear, I support the current sp reward system.
Also, the idea of creating your own character so that you can use it simply to replace itself with some other character some other player made is unpleasant to me as well. Kind of a "Forget about taking your own path, buy someone else's so you can be on top!" I won't be using that system if implemented but for those who it works for, whatever. I only see the character and could care less who is controlling it, unless its on my team. I like the sp system as is. Passive sp are rewarded, but active sp dominates. You cant get too far ahead as the longer you play, the more diminished the return of sp is for what you do. Skilled players are rewarded with the most sp. Why change this to eve passive sp system? So us beta folk can have the highest sp characters? I don't think we deserve it for being first. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 16:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
DaReaperPW wrote:Again TL:DR
I did wee a few post i'll comment on. As a almost 9 year player of eve, i will say that there really is no Cap to your class. As ccp is always changing and adding new things to cretin jobs. There is also no Class, as again you can change professions on the fly.
If dust is like eve then honestly SP will not matter. In eve, my main has 100M SP (i took a year off and never use implants, ya i know odd right) Anyway, at any time a noobie can kill me in heart beat, no matter how bad ass my ship is, i can still be killed anytime, almost anywhere by anyone. Skills only take you so far. From what i have seen thats the same thing with dust. A sniper can take out a high skilled player with the right hits. You can get a lucky shot with a swarm launcher or an AV nade and blow a tank sky high. Skills in the long run will not matter, and that skill point gap won;t make a lick of difference if you just got pounded on, got out with 10% armor, only to have a noob run up an knife you in the back. The point is, Dust seems like it will be more like eve then say WoW, where your skills points give you an advantage, but just because you have 1billion SP doesn't mean you will survive a noob who has a different weapon or gets the jump on you.
Agreed, however the conversation is not about if you can overcome or not. I have three main points.
1. More sp = advantage (However small can we agree there is an advantage?)
2. Any advantage should be a reward. (Personal opinion)
3. What should players be rewarded for? I believe that in a game like dust, players should be rewarded for their skill and cooperation. Passive skill points should play at most a minor role in character development.
Actually this is a really in-depth matter, and now that I think about it some more, I'm not ok with the current sp reward system. Its a good start but I do think it should focus more on squad cooperation then on individuals. I might just make a new topic addressing this issue in feedback. |
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