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Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
   |
Posted - 2012.08.30 03:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
So someone correct me if im wrong but...
Base hp on a gunnlogi is 2600 shield (Ill ignore the armor for this)
WARNING: This fitting looks very close on PG/CPU, May bee invalid Have not tried it in game. Also these calculations are dependent on the stacking system of diminishing modules using the same system as eve which may not be the case.
With two 25% Resist amps (Second at 87% effective like in eve)
One DCM at 14% Resist
Two +7% Shiled PDS (Second at 87%)
and a Heavy + Supp Heavy shield extender the effective hp of the tank is about 10795 shield hp. Oh and 1140 armor.
So overall 11935hp
Militia swarm missile does 1400 per volley. So it would take 8.5 volleys from a militia launcher to take down a max fitted gunnlogi. If you have to switch the second PDS to PGE then 8 volleys.
So, one AV milita squad would need to successfully ambush, and get off both shots to take down a beast like this, possibly needing to reload.
Discuss, is this too much or too little?
Also Sagaris: 9 volleys. |
Magneus Calgar
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 03:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Don't forget the DCM module affects armor as well so its another 140 armor ehp. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 03:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Magneus Calgar wrote:Don't forget the DCM module affects armor as well so its another 140 armor ehp.
Right you are. Thanks. |
Ruthra V25
Conspiratus Immortalis
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 03:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
There are to many other AV option.
Forge, AV grenades, RE, Orbital Strike, hell your own Vehicles
and get out of Militia |
Dr Skurlock
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 03:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
wth is a PGD?
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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 03:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
too few acutally.
Also AV is extremly expensive the weapons meant for vehicle killing is much higher than anti infantry wepaons. |
Dr Skurlock
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:too few acutally.
Also AV is extremly expensive the weapons meant for vehicle killing is much higher than anti infantry wepaons.
That is only fair as the vehicles (tanks) are incredibly expensive as well |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ruthra V25 wrote:There are to many other AV option.
Forge, AV grenades, RE, Orbital Strike, hell your own Vehicles
and get out of Militia
Milita grade weapons was just to provide a baseline understandable value of the effective hp of tank. I could crunch the numbers for the other types but I'm more interested in how people feel about this. Does it seem like this is excessive for the number of shots it would take to pop one or is it even too little? Keep in mind that most tanks at this level would fit a shield booster which would reduce the number of volleys it would take to about 5-6 but allow the tank to repair quickly and re-enter combat. One of these things gets damaged and it retreat and wait for shield to recharge at 26hp/sec or so. |
Sees-Too-Much
332
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Someone posted a fit a couple days ago that had some 14k eHP. It's still only 10-12 swarm rounds not counting AV grenades. Three people with a T1 Swarm could take it down with a single magazine. Again, less with AV grenades. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dr Skurlock wrote:wth is a PGD?
Power Grid Diag |
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Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sees-Too-Much wrote:Someone posted a fit a couple days ago that had some 14k eHP. It's still only 10-12 swarm rounds not counting AV grenades. Three people with a T1 Swarm could take it down with a single magazine. Again, less with AV grenades.
I believe you can do this with armor tanking. Hadn't looked into that yet. |
Dr Skurlock
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Oh a power diagnostic system. >.> |
Ruthra V25
Conspiratus Immortalis
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
yeah I have paid the sp for Heavy suit and like weapons, and I have had a blast. Hell I stopped using Heavy w/ AR in ambush. Felt it was kinda op, and HMG is little more fun. If vehicles on the map its Forge all day. |
Dr Skurlock
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ok, lemme school you a bit. With 2 amps, 1 extender and a DCU, you can't fit 2 PDS; even with perfect skills, well if your turrent is even half ass. So recrunch your numbers to exclude 1 of those PDS's. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dr Skurlock wrote:Ok, lemme school you a bit. With 2 amps, 1 extender and a DCU, you can't fit 2 PDS; even with perfect skills, well if your turrent is even half ass. So recrunch your numbers to exclude 1 of those PDS's.
Even if the turret is half ass, this is a thought experiment more than an effective build. Also I did. Takes 1/2 a volley less to pop tank. |
Dr Skurlock
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
Correct. I drive a tank. My shields are 5000+ with that fit not 10k+. There is some error in his calculations. |
Nighthawk0430
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sees-Too-Much wrote:Someone posted a fit a couple days ago that had some 14k eHP. It's still only 10-12 swarm rounds not counting AV grenades. Three people with a T1 Swarm could take it down with a single magazine. Again, less with AV grenades.
AV grenades dont do much damage, the best AV grenade is the LAI DAI Packed, dealing 235.3 HP per grenade, and it cost 17k ISK (my research on this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag6oQRxOsk-PdDRRWmJKNVFGQUtjdGZYdG10NWpfd0E#gid=0, bottom of the sheet.), so I dont see many people launching a lot of those, even if they were with swarm launchers |
Ruthra V25
Conspiratus Immortalis
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
But why militia weapons? then run numbers with militia tanks is all |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Dr Skurlock wrote:Correct. I drive a tank. My shields are 5000+ with that fit not 10k+. There is some error in his calculations.
Effective hp takes into account your shield resistances too. So if you had no resistance but the same effective shield poiints you wold have 10k hp. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ruthra V25 wrote:But why militia weapons? then run numbers with militia tanks is all
Milita weapons are a weapon everyone is familiar with. Just to give a frame of mind on what exactally 10k hp can take. |
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Dr Skurlock
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
I see. At any rate, thank god I don't run that weak ass fit anymore. |
Sees-Too-Much
332
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nighthawk0430 wrote:Sees-Too-Much wrote:Someone posted a fit a couple days ago that had some 14k eHP. It's still only 10-12 swarm rounds not counting AV grenades. Three people with a T1 Swarm could take it down with a single magazine. Again, less with AV grenades. AV grenades dont do much damage, the best AV grenade is the LAI DAI Packed, dealing 235.3 HP per grenade, and it cost 17k ISK (my research on this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag6oQRxOsk-PdDRRWmJKNVFGQUtjdGZYdG10NWpfd0E#gid=0, bottom of the sheet.), so I dont see many people launching a lot of those, even if they were with swarm launchers
Their listed damage isn't correct. I'm not sure why it's listed the way it is, but since the T1 AV grenades (listed at some 140 damage, I believe) can one shot an LAV (with some 1500 eHP) it's clear the numbers are a tad off. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dr Skurlock wrote:I see. At any rate, thank god I don't run that weak ass fit anymore.
Would you care to elaborate? I tried the numbers on quite a few fittings, this is the highest effective hp I could come up with. Was you complaint with the fitting that it did not survive well or that it did not recharge/damage output well? I would be very interested for this little thought experiment if there is a build with higher effective hp for these tanks.  |
Nighthawk0430
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sees-Too-Much wrote:Nighthawk0430 wrote:Sees-Too-Much wrote:Someone posted a fit a couple days ago that had some 14k eHP. It's still only 10-12 swarm rounds not counting AV grenades. Three people with a T1 Swarm could take it down with a single magazine. Again, less with AV grenades. AV grenades dont do much damage, the best AV grenade is the LAI DAI Packed, dealing 235.3 HP per grenade, and it cost 17k ISK (my research on this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag6oQRxOsk-PdDRRWmJKNVFGQUtjdGZYdG10NWpfd0E#gid=0, bottom of the sheet.), so I dont see many people launching a lot of those, even if they were with swarm launchers Their listed damage isn't correct. I'm not sure why it's listed the way it is, but since the T1 AV grenades (listed at some 140 damage, I believe) can one shot an LAV (with some 1500 eHP) it's clear the numbers are a tad off.
Yeah, just slightly 0_o. Or maybe the damage is based on if it hit a Clone, and they are OHK's on LAV's and HAV's due to them being actually Anti-Vehicle Grenades. Wonder if their is a way we could test this, Id love to know |
Dr Skurlock
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Goliath Raven wrote:Dr Skurlock wrote:I see. At any rate, thank god I don't run that weak ass fit anymore. Would you care to elaborate? I tried the numbers on quite a few fittings, this is the highest effective hp I could come up with. Was you complaint with the fitting that it did not survive well or that it did not recharge/damage output well? I would be very interested for this little thought experiment if there is a build with higher effective hp for these tanks.
Not gonna give up the secrets but, the numbers aren't right as the previous guy posted.
What you see as stats ain't what you get atm. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dr Skurlock wrote:Goliath Raven wrote:Dr Skurlock wrote:I see. At any rate, thank god I don't run that weak ass fit anymore. Would you care to elaborate? I tried the numbers on quite a few fittings, this is the highest effective hp I could come up with. Was you complaint with the fitting that it did not survive well or that it did not recharge/damage output well? I would be very interested for this little thought experiment if there is a build with higher effective hp for these tanks. Not gonna give up the secrets but, the numbers aren't right as the previous guy posted.
Ahh I see, thanks for the info. Sad, that makes my little thought experiment all but useless. |
Ruthra V25
Conspiratus Immortalis
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
Goliath Raven wrote:Ruthra V25 wrote:But why militia weapons? then run numbers with militia tanks is all Milita weapons are a weapon everyone is familiar with. Just to give a frame of mind on what exactally 10k hp can take.
Would they not be familiar with militia tanks as well? Its just your running numbers on some player with enough time/sp in game to have a Gunnlogi or even a Sagaris...with all the fitting VS. 4 new guys with Militia Swarm Launchers
crunch all you want my ISK is on the Vet in his tank |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ruthra V25 wrote:Goliath Raven wrote:Ruthra V25 wrote:But why militia weapons? then run numbers with militia tanks is all Milita weapons are a weapon everyone is familiar with. Just to give a frame of mind on what exactally 10k hp can take. Would they not be familiar with militia tanks as well? Its just your running numbers on some player with enough time/sp in game to have a Gunnlogi or even a Sagaris...with all the fitting VS. 4 new guys with Militia Swarm Launchers crunch all you want my ISK is on the Vet in his tank
As mine would be but its just a thought experiment on the effective hp of tanks. In order to get people to think about the effective hp of a tank, throwing out a number like 11935hp does not really help people to understand what that means. 8 militia swarm launcher volleys does. Almost everyone here will have fired and hit something with a militia swarm launcher. It just gives a frame of mind of how much it takes. I'm not trying to argue if 8 militia guys could take down a vetted tank. Just looking at the tanks hp and how much it takes to take down. |
Horus Calling
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
I think there are decreasing returns on stacking modules, someone correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't think for example, that if you stack 3 10% modules you are going to get 30%.
Oh you took that into account, nevermind! it's late. |
Ruthra V25
Conspiratus Immortalis
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
so how much dmg would 4 proto logi suits with 4 complex LW dmg mods each, with militia swarms do? |
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Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 05:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
This is a complex issue.
I would wager, two proto heavies with proto SL's against a driver and gunner in a Gunnlogi, all other things being equal, that the tank would most often win. This is with an equivalent number of players on each side, the tank having two players in militia outfits (because what's the point if you're in a tank anyway).
However, though the tank is more costly, the heavies are taking a greater risk. A soldier in a tank isn't going to take noticeable damage from anything but AV grenades, swarm launchers and forge guns, and can gun down or roll over any infantry with ease. The tank can also take out most infantry targets with a couple hits, doesn't have to lock and never has to reload (although some turrets do have heat buildup).
On the other hand, our heavies are extraordinarily weak against infantry. Sure, they've got thick armor, but they're left with a sidearm versus assault rifles, sniper rifles, HMGs, mass drivers, etc. In a vacuum, they'd be lucky to get off 4 shots apiece at that tank, but now they have to contend with an entire enemy infantry gunning for them while they try to set up shots 2, 3, and 4. And trust me, once that first swarm goes off, everyone knows where you are. You might have to take even more shots if the tank is using its active shield repairer, if you have to reload, or if, during the 30 seconds that you're attacking the tank, it manages to find cover--and tanks move a lot faster than you do.
Has anybody reading this ever managed to take out a proto tank as an AV? Can you tell us exactly how much it takes? |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
583
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 05:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dont forget that Weaponry also boosts the damage of a Militia Swarm by up to 15% |
Ruthra V25
Conspiratus Immortalis
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 05:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
I have blown up a few tanks. I have not used Proto AV this build, but last build I ended with 45-46 mil SP. was able to Proto heavy and logi suit, along with most weapon(not all). It would take me 5-6 Assault forge shots to drop a good tank. With Breach forge dmg, pain to use, not sure this build. Also tanks seem to have soft spots around rear areas, not sure if its on all or they are still there. |
Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 06:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ruthra V25 wrote:I have blown up a few tanks. I have not used Proto AV this build, but last build I ended with 45-46 mil SP. was able to Proto heavy and logi suit, along with most weapon(not all). It would take me 5-6 Assault forge shots to drop a good tank. With Breach forge dmg, pain to use, not sure this build. Also tanks seem to have soft spots around rear areas, not sure if its on all or they are still there.
Interesting, I wasn't aware that vehicles had tougher and weaker points. |
carl von oppenheimer
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 06:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
That might seems like a beast on paper but I had a one like that in last build before the wipe and I could swear I was one slotted by forge guns and didn't last that many shots against a marauder either.
It's a possibility that damage resistance didn't actually work in the last build though because I definitely lasted longer with shield extenders. |
Encharrion
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
104
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 07:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Goliath Raven wrote:Dr Skurlock wrote:Goliath Raven wrote:Dr Skurlock wrote:I see. At any rate, thank god I don't run that weak ass fit anymore. Would you care to elaborate? I tried the numbers on quite a few fittings, this is the highest effective hp I could come up with. Was you complaint with the fitting that it did not survive well or that it did not recharge/damage output well? I would be very interested for this little thought experiment if there is a build with higher effective hp for these tanks. Not gonna give up the secrets but, the numbers aren't right as the previous guy posted. Ahh I see, thanks for the info. Sad, that makes my little thought experiment all but useless.
I'm pretty sure only the AV grenade's values are off, and I think that's only because the value shown is its damage versus infantry. Aside from that, I believe you get more EHP from your fit if you go with 3 resists a DCU and only 1 extender, and even if it isn't it's easier to fit. |
Goliath Raven
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 16:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Encharrion wrote:Goliath Raven wrote:Dr Skurlock wrote:Goliath Raven wrote:Dr Skurlock wrote:I see. At any rate, thank god I don't run that weak ass fit anymore. Would you care to elaborate? I tried the numbers on quite a few fittings, this is the highest effective hp I could come up with. Was you complaint with the fitting that it did not survive well or that it did not recharge/damage output well? I would be very interested for this little thought experiment if there is a build with higher effective hp for these tanks. Not gonna give up the secrets but, the numbers aren't right as the previous guy posted. Ahh I see, thanks for the info. Sad, that makes my little thought experiment all but useless. I'm pretty sure only the AV grenade's values are off, and I think that's only because the value shown is its damage versus infantry. Aside from that, I believe you get more EHP from your fit if you go with 3 resists a DCU and only 1 extender, and even if it isn't it's easier to fit.
It would really help to get a response from GM or dev on this. Are we playing the game with correct information or are the people who experiment able to find combos of equipment that are more effective then the numbers we see would lead us to believe? If we are supposed to be working with the numbers provided, then we need up to date numbers or some people will be on the battlefield with uber-powered equip while the rest of us are reading up and wondering how its possible. CCP, please level the playing field for all players with accurate information. |
Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 16:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nighthawk0430 wrote:Sees-Too-Much wrote:Someone posted a fit a couple days ago that had some 14k eHP. It's still only 10-12 swarm rounds not counting AV grenades. Three people with a T1 Swarm could take it down with a single magazine. Again, less with AV grenades. AV grenades dont do much damage, the best AV grenade is the LAI DAI Packed, dealing 235.3 HP per grenade, and it cost 17k ISK (my research on this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag6oQRxOsk-PdDRRWmJKNVFGQUtjdGZYdG10NWpfd0E#gid=0, bottom of the sheet.), so I dont see many people launching a lot of those, even if they were with swarm launchers
i believe you need to move the decimal place one spot to the right...making 140 damage 1400 damage or 150 damage 1500 damage etc.
so the best AV grenade is listed at 235.3HP ...really should be 2353HP |
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