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Smots Ju-Kyu
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
13
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
After playing the last few days of this build I have found that when it comes to Vehicles vs AV infantry, there is one thing that will swing the balance of power most of the time to the side of the Vehicle driver: INFINITE AMMO
As it goes right now vehicles can run around all match long and just spam rockets etc without ever running out. The only thing vehicle drivers need to worry about is AV Infantry. Most times because of "infinite ammo" they can just spam their weapons in the direction of the AV person and splash damage them to death.
The AV infantry on the other hand have to pick and choose their shots. Since they have limited ammo supply they need to make every shot count. A missed shot usually means either death or the vehicle getting away. While doing this they not only have to watch out for the weapon spam from the vehicle, but also the random enemy infantry that will try and kill them as well.
To me this isn't really rock/paper/scissors in a true sense. It is more like rock break through paper and smash scissors. My idea to bring it back closer to rock/paper/scissors would be to limit ammo supply of all vehicles, but give the drivers something similar to the nanohive as a module to rep ammo for the vehicle like the shield and armor reps they currently have.
Vehicles would still be powerful, but now drivers/gunners would need to be more tactical with there shots just like everyone else on the battlefield.
Any thoughts or suggestions to expand on this idea are welcome |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
AV infantry are also expensive. |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah while a somewhat decent LVL1 LAV already costs 200k per spawn with modules. Not to mention the HAVs ^^ |
Sees-Too-Much
332
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
When complaining about balance you have to remember that a huge portion of the capabilities we will eventually have don't exist yet.
For example, eventually vehicles will have capacitors. If you've played EVE you're familiar with the capacitor, but if not it's more-or-less analogous to a mana bar.
Every action taken by vehicles will deplete their capacitor. Moving, shooting, module activation. This means that unless a HAV sacrifices a good chunk of its tank to be completely cap stable it will have to be careful when it shoots or it will find itself out of cap and unable to move OR shoot. |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
397
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Some kind of cooldown for the missile turrets would help. |
Luna Vuhrast
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
23
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
I have to disagree with this thread entirely, sure vehicles have an upper hand vs. infantry.. kinda the point. However being my main focus has been dropship piloting it doesn't seem to matter how good a pilot gets I find myself shot down ALOT a fully upgraded myron can only take one or two direct hits from a forge/railgun/installation before going down. That is a fact and when said attack hits or is launched [stingers aka swarm missles.] are affectively unavoidable so I often don't try I hold on and focus on stabalizing the impact and hope it wasn't maxed out swarm missles that hit me and my repair modules have enough strength to survive it. Infact I propose the oposite when need a flare system or anti missle system/mod to combat them because shields aren't enough. Something similar to the system in Battlefield 3 would balance things out I think. |
achiever
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
wow you just need some time with av i run a Assault suit with swarm all free suit and mods and i have np with tanks just fit a nanohive for ammo find a nice hill where you can see most of the map and spam swarms one of 2 things will happen he will run or die just make sure you drop your nanohive frist so you have the ammo you need and a Submachinegun for anyone who runs up on you too kill you
this works very well
p.s. you get tanks and dropships for loot atm i have 9 tanks and 12 dropships cant wait for the market that lets us sell loot |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
397
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Luna Vuhrast wrote:I have to disagree with this thread entirely, sure vehicles have an upper hand vs. infantry.. kinda the point. However being my main focus has been dropship piloting it doesn't seem to matter how good a pilot gets I find myself shot down ALOT a fully upgraded myron can only take one or two direct hits from a forge/railgun/installation before going down. That is a fact and when said attack hits or is launched [stingers aka swarm missles.] are affectively unavoidable so I often don't try I hold on and focus on stabalizing the impact and hope it wasn't maxed out swarm missles that hit me and my repair modules have enough strength to survive it. Infact I propose the oposite when need a flare system or anti missle system/mod to combat them because shields aren't enough. Something similar to the system in Battlefield 3 would balance things out I think.
I agree 100% with the flares thing. Swarm Launchers are terribly nerfed vs. HAVs (and technically infantry, but nobody really cares) but crazy OP for dropships. Giving ships and possibly LAVs a way to avoid getting hit completely would help them without making high level tanks all but invincible to everyone but Forge gunners. |
Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP isn't known to "limit" ammo. They'll probably just make us tankers buy our ammo. Fine by me, I've got money. |
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
173
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
hrm......dont they have countermeasures in eve? interesting mod idea......big CPU/PG requirement for countermeasures against swarms? |
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Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sees-Too-Much wrote:When complaining about balance you have to remember that a huge portion of the capabilities we will eventually have don't exist yet.
For example, eventually vehicles will have capacitors. If you've played EVE you're familiar with the capacitor, but if not it's more-or-less analogous to a mana bar.
Every action taken by vehicles will deplete their capacitor. Moving, shooting, module activation. This means that unless a HAV sacrifices a good chunk of its tank to be completely cap stable it will have to be careful when it shoots or it will find itself out of cap and unable to move OR shoot.
cant wait for caps tbqh ccp needs to get this in so we can test it and needs to be in at launch or might as well call this game World of Tanks 2 |
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1903
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Debacle Nano wrote:CCP isn't known to "limit" ammo.
I'm not sure about you, but my shotgun has something like 30 shots or so....
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TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
326
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Players need to spec for Swarm launchers, Forge Guns, AV grenades, etc. This will stop the players using powerful machines. We must counter scissors with rocks. |
Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
65
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
just throwing this out there but not only are tank actually SUPPOSED to be better then infantry and the infantry just have massive tactical advantage where those specialized infantry squads can take out tanks on whims, but the rest are basically ******, but CCP isn't trying to balance the game.
So good job you made another of 50 "Tanks are OP" threads, quiet down troll and just ignore it and have fun with the game. |
Drake Gro'Dar
19
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Careful what you wish for. Anyone that has played EVE knows they don't limit ammo they make you buy it. If they go with buying ammo they will probably give you choices. I can see tanks getting ammo to help against tanks and against infantry. So sure they get limited ammo but when that ammo is stronger than what they have now is that really a good thing? |
DOCTORHITDETECTOR
18
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Antonius Dacinci wrote:just throwing this out there but not only are tank actually SUPPOSED to be better then infantry and the infantry just have massive tactical advantage where those specialized infantry squads can take out tanks on whims, but the rest are basically ******, but CCP isn't trying to balance the game.
So good job you made another of 50 "Tanks are OP" threads, quiet down troll and just ignore it and have fun with the game.
LOL.... Tank driver are we ? |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
788
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
The main reason tanks seem hard to kill right now is because most people are still using the militia shock fit to try to fight tanks. This is absolutely the worst thing you can do. Fit up an assault or scout suit and put at least a standard swarm launcher on there. It's a 20k skillpoint investment and it makes a world of difference. The militia swarm launcher is useless for any decent vehicle. The standard swarm launcher is enough to cause some concern. The prototype swarm launcher just plain -hurts- anything it hits. AV grenades + nanohives work wonders too. A couple people chucking these can seriously hurt a tank.
To top it off, all vehicles are supposed to have weak spots that increase damage done to them when hit.. Sort of like how headshots work on infantry. Those are bugged and not working right now. Once they do work properly and people start running proper AV instead of this militia crap... We'll likely see that tanks are -too easy- to kill. |
DOCTORHITDETECTOR
18
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
TiMeSpLiT--TeR wrote:Players need to spec for Swarm launchers, Forge Guns, AV grenades, etc. This will stop the players using powerful machines. We must counter scissors with rocks.
Sorry, this is bad advice seeing as AV is useless against tanks. Yes I have proto'd AV. Now with nerfs even worse. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards
100
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Curious for a structured debate? |
Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
91
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
First, please make the topic more specific. I almost missed this post sue to the generic name. It is a brilliant idea though. Why shouldn't the vehicles have limited ammo and need reloaded? I very much support this idea. |
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Ignatius Crumwald
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
475
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Posted - 2012.08.29 21:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
The simple solution is give every type of turret an ammo pool that passively regenerates.
Some turrets could have larger ammo pools than others or faster regen times than others and it would be up to the pilot to build either a spam, damage, or balanced vehicle/installation.
The more damage, and therefor themore complex the ammo is, then the longer the regen time on the ammo pool - this is reflected in infantry ammo regen already, BTW.. Modules that speed up the regen time could be introduced as well.
I have spoken, game fixed, get to work, make it so CCP, etc.. |
Smots Ju-Kyu
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
13
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Posted - 2012.08.30 10:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
Some interesting comments so far in this thread. Couple that I want to address:
For those stating that CCP not known for limiting ammo, they already do it to infantry. Why should vehicles be exempt?
For those that say get a nanohive and problem solved, what about the heavy with a forge gun? Heavy have no equipment slot so carrying a nanohive is not an option. Plus that still does not address the disparity between limited and infinite ammo since nanohives now have a limit to how much ammo they can put out. Once the limit is reached it disappears
For those saying to just spec into AV, you missed the point slightly. You could be spec'd into AV weapons, but you still end up on the wrong end of the stick when it comes to ammo. If you run out of ammo as a AV infantry you are screwed. Either the vehicle you were trying to kill gets you, or an enemy infantry picks you off while you are low on shields and armor while running from said vehicle
Lastly, I never said Vehicles are OP. However, with the advantage of infinite ammo I feel that it creates too wide of a gap for AV infantry to effectively counter them. In essence it throws the whole notion of rock/paper/scissors out of whack |
Cpl Quartz
127
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Posted - 2012.08.30 11:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Webifier that slows the tank from retreating and slows turret functionality. Think of it like an interceptor or two locking down a battleship in eve. Then just let the AV do their work.
In theory 3 av should be able to take down a tank right or 2 av and a tackler.? 3 people in the tank 3 people to counter. Problem is the tank just runs away.
Thing is atm anyone can jump in a tank need to limit the suit size able to board tanks also, has to be a payoff for sitting in that big nice invincible metal thing right?. There is a pilot one on the way or at least a placeholder for it. Make them abandon ship to try and save it. Kill crew hope it has some officer modules rhack and repair the tank sell loot on market.
Idea for something new to fight over - some type of cashe/building that has a small % chance to drop nice loot.
Tractor beams to lock down arial vehcles. The possibilities are endless and the stuff is already in EvE they just need time to bring it here if they choose to do so. And if it possible to do.
Wow i knew EvE had potential the first day i played it. Who would guess it's ended up here. |
William HBonney
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
318
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Posted - 2012.08.30 11:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
dropships can outrun swarms....they are actually the same speed. |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
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Posted - 2012.08.30 12:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
TBH i asked for ammo and reloading in a thread of mine time ago
Also tho we have less AV option atm and its way too easy to skill into a tank, it takes less SP to get into a tank than it does to skill into half decent AV stuff to destroy a tank |
EnIgMa99
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
219
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Posted - 2012.08.30 12:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
nanohive? |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
397
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Posted - 2012.08.30 12:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Drake Gro'Dar wrote:Careful what you wish for. Anyone that has played EVE knows they don't limit ammo they make you buy it. If they go with buying ammo they will probably give you choices. I can see tanks getting ammo to help against tanks and against infantry. So sure they get limited ammo but when that ammo is stronger than what they have now is that really a good thing? What's stronger ammo going to do? 99% of infantry are one hit kills for tanks already. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.08.30 13:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tanks are still Op. there's no reason to skills for AV as the best AV is a better HAV. I've said before the rock paper scissors thing only works up to a point. A decent HAV can take a repeated beating, kill the AV guys and run away. Rinse & repeat.
I don't know about EWAR, there's no eta on that. Webifiers and capacitors and limited ammo are all good plans, but tbh it's becomming evident that HAV will be the best investment of SP/ISK.
That's kinda crap when there's 4 dropsuits which are currently pretty worthless. I've been playing assault since Replication build. My character doesn't feel special. He feels like a waste of Sp, shoulda gone tanks.
Tbqh, it's impossible to balance. You just can't balance 15kehp with 1000ehp (++ber assault or decent heavy). And the HAV can Ofcourse 1 shot either of those... |
Needless Sacermendor
98
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Posted - 2012.08.30 13:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Giving dropships and LAVs a way other avoiding getting hit altogether !!! What ? Why not just take the swarm launcher out of the game ! CCP isn't known to limit ammo !! Yes they are, all ships in Eve have a set cargo hold volume and all ammo has a volume, therefore you can only carry as much ammo as your hold will take. Giving varieties ammo doesn't mean it will be better at killing infantry or tanks, you just give tanks a natural resist to one type and infantry a resist to the other, you wouldn't make anything more powerful in either case, just reduce its effect on targets it's not designed for. Passive regen reflected in infantry !! What game are you playing ? I have to use a nanohive or supply depot if I want to restock ammo. The same should go for vehicles and in my opinion turrets aswell. You have to stock turrets anchored at a POS in Eve, so if there are planet installation size turrets in New Eden with ammo replicators built in, can I order a few for my POS !
Most of the rest is all good, mainly the Soon (tm) capacitor management and webifiers and nosferati (is that the right pluralisation ?)
There should be some more counters to tanks on the way and hopefully more people training some advanced AV weapons to switch to when there's only me running round after the HAV. |
Cpl Quartz
127
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Posted - 2012.08.30 13:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:Tanks are still Op. there's no reason to skills for AV as the best AV is a better HAV. I've said before the rock paper scissors thing only works up to a point. A decent HAV can take a repeated beating, kill the AV guys and run away. Rinse & repeat.
I don't know about EWAR, there's no eta on that. Webifiers and capacitors and limited ammo are all good plans, but tbh it's becomming evident that HAV will be the best investment of SP/ISK.
That's kinda crap when there's 4 dropsuits which are currently pretty worthless. I've been playing assault since Replication build. My character doesn't feel special. He feels like a waste of Sp, shoulda gone tanks.
Tbqh, it's impossible to balance. You just can't balance 15kehp with 1000ehp (++ber assault or decent heavy). And the HAV can Ofcourse 1 shot either of those...
whats more annoying is that goons get inside info on every new build so they know what to skill for maximum lameage.
ok so tanks need testing but there's someone opening their gob when they should be watching and seeing how players pick up on things by themselves. same **** in eve. |
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