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Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.08.28 07:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Actually we don't have a true rock/paper/scissor system. What we have is a mountain/paper/scissor system. Statistical advantages/disadvantages are in place and they are impacting heavily the game BUT a FPS that relies on stats is bad, very bad, because FPS relies almost entirely on player's skills.
Also negative feedback is coming for many reasons, and rightfully so.
Gamepaly in Dust is not on par any FPS on PS3 and despite our constant critics CCP has shown no interest in changing it as we suggested.
COD, BF, KZ Halo are better FPS and if Dust 514 wants to succeed it has to at leas match them because nobody will play a mediocre FPS, even if it is free. Better spend time and money on a solid product that waste time on a mediocre one.
I met a EVE players that said to me " EVE is simple, it's just that its UI is a mess".
Dust just like EVE indeed has a terrible UI and it's not a complicated game; as a Physicist would say "Dust is not very elegant". Simplicity doesn't mean stupidity, here people instead think: complexity = clever, simple = stupid. As Shakespeare said "Brevity is the souls of the wit" and Dust is unnecessary long. Accessibility is important in any VG but here people think that putting a wall of inaccessibly in front of Dust is going to help and that it's making it better.
Dust is not a true sandbox MMO, and it's evident if you are in the beta, but still for the rest of the world it's advertised as such.
People come here expecting total freedom like in any MMO but instead get red unsafe zones/invisible walls & matchmaking just like in any FPS. They rightfully feel disappointed/deceived.
Frankly I see on the forums way too many people here defending Dust from any sort of negative feedback, just because it's negative, without thinking that those feedback have a reason to exist. Dust is getting negative publicity, from reviews and players alike, because there's indeed something wrong in Dust BUT here fanboys don't want to see it. Negative feedback are essential to make e game better, to correct its mistakes, but here they are always censored/buried. I understand the desire to see Dust succeed but protecting it from everything you don't like isn't helping. This kind of behavior has made Dust 514 the unappealing game it is now. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.08.28 07:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
^^^ People here think that having more planets/maps then players will be fun.
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Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.08.28 14:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jedd Brown wrote:Guys when Dust starts there will be:
PVE (drone regions or/and probably wormhole exploration)- for those who likes some kinde of mobs or lone wolf play
PVP in high sec space / low sec space (factional warfare) for guys who wan't a pvp with meaning but not to deep ;)
PVP in null sec. Some kind of deepest gameplay for hadcore gamers. Close integration to EVE players
PVP like today in beta but with more customization /game mods / maps for casual players.
Some big events in EVE/DUST engaging a lot of players
IT'S FREE :)
Explain me how this model could fail? Ofcourse when all technical stuff will work well not like today.
CCP needs to wake up and realize that PVE works in RPG but not in FPS.
Now you either make a MMO with a story arc, that justifies the presence of PVE, or you stick to PVP.
Divisions, divisions, divisions: why have them in a game that wants to be a "One universe, one war" .
Matchmaking in a MMO is the death of sandbox elements.
More divisions and discrimination for players all in the name of stats.
I spent weeks proposing/pushing for customization and it's not coming in Dust 514 and you know why?
Because ti takes months to make that happen and it must be done systemically. We either have fitting or Customization: both can't exist in the same place. Fitting is RPG Customization is FPS: CCP opted for RPG so forget customization. PalnetSide will have customization, so Defiance and Blacklight Retribution has ti BUT not Dust 514. Really I begged CCP to introduce customization and they never said a word, not even "no forget it".
It's free and it's not good.
Many terrible games are free, do you play them? Do you like wasting time on poor games that are free? |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 16:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
^^^ The gameplay is fundamental but also: customization, no matchmaking, less emphasis on in-game skills, no discrimination based on stats & controller method, graphic, and much more.
Also beside gameplay I am seeing a worrisome lack of sandbox elements that IMO will endanger Dust. Sorry but as long as I will be limited by red zones/invisible walls, by matchmaking and not by geographical limitation it will never feel or look like a true MMO. I really don't feel in a MMO when I am stuck against just 32 people and I can't even go where I want or I have timer that says "match ends in 10 minutes". It pains me to say it but when Mobius's friend says that in PalnetSide 2 you can do whatever you want (for a FPS) he is right. The limitations of Dust don't put it in the MMO category and I am sure many are looking for that experience. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 17:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
^^^ PlanetSide 2 on PS4 could very well happen. SOE might opt for a "smaller" version with 300 players per continent instead then 1k but it coudl be amazing nonetheless. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 18:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:
Its a beta but tbh for me its better than all other FPS shooters i have
This what you think and if you believe so you are never, ever going to listen to any of us that criticize Dust, even if we have valid points. Dust could be a man with 1 leg and you would still say he's faster then Usain Bolt. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.08.29 08:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
BlaZ1n LyCuO wrote:Finally a topic where i can relate and actually debate.
1. I think this game might be a bit too complex for a simple gamer. This is almost a fact. There are no other FPS's out there that you have to build a character with skill points in certain areas. This for the immediate reality will hurt the community because it will make certain people not want to play thanks to them not understanding the power of specialization and determination to get specific skills in order. Although in the end i think this is how the game will flourish because it is different from everything else. Which will also lead to my second point.
Dust is not complex! Everything is just explained very badly or not explained at all. Dust takes 10 words to say "Hi" and 6 steps to go from a menu to another while 2 would suffice. People don't understand some mechanics because there is not an explanation for them, anywhere. Take chess: you can learn how each piece can move in 2 minutes but it will takes years to become good at it. Dust is the opposite: intricate, ill conceived explanation for a simple, very immediate, gameplay such as the one in FPS.
2. Please stop relating this to COD. You will not see most of the COD community here because they are dedicated to COD and COD play. If it takes more than 3 bullets to kill someone you will not draw the COD community. IMO this game is more like battlefield, especially battlefield 2 for those of you who used to play, in the fact that it takes strategy a bit of team work and staying together as a team to win a round. Capturing points in this game is going to be important. Who isnt going to love getting a reward from someone who doesnt even play ur game because you held a planet for them in a different game. This is why i think this game will draw a decent amount of the battlefield community.
TTK was never used to compare Dust to COD. I prefer very low TTK but I as well understand high the reasons TTK shooter. Capturing planets/points will be important but if it's not funny it's pointless. This is a VG and fun should be number 1 priority and not make a great concept. The lackluster gameplay is not making Dust funny for me and many other. Dust should look at COD for how to make things fun, because millions of people have fun in COD I do't like COD because it's too arcade but it's undoubtly funny if you accept it for what tit is.
3. As a disclaimer i have to say that I am not an Eve player but trust me im not even close to a noob in eve ;). I have lived with and or hung out with an Eve player who has been part of BoB in the good old days, fought with titans and carriers and motherships (supercarriers) so i know how to make load outs and everything. In saying this I do believe I have a jump on most non Eve players because i realize tanking is important. I realize you cant both shield and armour tank something (usually). But also i have taught my 15 year old brother the basics of Eve logic and even he picked it up in under a week. This leads to my fourth point.
4. Any good FPS player with an Eve sponsor and mentor can easily pick this game up and start to kick some ass. This game has the ability to become something big because of cool things like orbital strikes and shared markets and isk and all that. Basically, if we stick to it and do our jobs by telling CCP what we see wrong with the game i feel we can make on of the biggest online games with a dedicated following who wont need to go out and buy a new product every year.
And this is what's wrong with Dust. This is a FPS, the only things you need to be good are you reflexes and you tactical thinking. Why should I need a EVE player to teach me how to shoot in a FPS when I have been doing it for ages? What EVE players can do is to tech me the "vocabulary" of EVE but not much more. In-game skills and the rest here are used to establish a connection with EVE and as I said countless of times what works for EVE gamepaly does not work for FPS gamepaly. Stats in FSP have no place because it's a genre in which the player has total control of the action.
Moral of the story... Stop bitching and keep playing. If you dont like the aiming try a keyboard and mouse. If you hate tankers try researching swarm lauchers and forge guns. Finally, go through and read the perks to every skill people... some things have hidden perks like researching assualt rifle operations doesnt make it stronger but instead makes it more accurate... that was a shocker to me but ill be damned its nice to have a more accurate rifle.
Stats, stats and more stats. You what the game to help you while in FPS we want as little help as possible from the game. That is RPG/EVE mentality where players without the right in-game skill are useless, while in FPS a player with talent/skill and the basic gear is deadly. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.08.29 09:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Anyone is free to enjoy anything but there are objective things in VG like performance & video quality that don't depend on personal taste. Dust is weak in those aspects and those are the things that I can measure and comment and that are undeniable. Most of my comments are about things that are purely technical!
Unresponsive controls = technical. Poor animation = technical. Weightless weapons = technical, because it'a matter of programming Poor graphic = technical. Poor net code = technical. Poor, unclear, badly organized UI = technical. Barren empty maps =tehcnical.
The only non technical thighs I disagree on are stats & lack of sandbox elements. Those are design choice and I have explained many times why for me they are not right for a FPS like Dust. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 12:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
All the bad publicity could very well go away if CCP could say these simple words: "We are fixing the gameplay" and do it. I would personal spread the news over the internet and help the bad reputation go away. So far it didn't happen and the only thing CCP said is: we can't fix things, we need to respect the schedule and add more stuff.
Now CCP didn't really do anything to prevent bad publicity form coming: they let IGN in, they let people buy the access to the beta, they let PS+ in and most importantly they let journalists in . If CCP had doubts about Dust's quality, if they had deemed it not ready to be shown to the a wider public, or to be previewed, they would not have allowed any of that to happen nor have gone to E3. Bungie deemed Destiny not ready to be showed and in fact they didn't show it. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 14:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
I really don't like this mentality. Many here say "console people don't understand what a beta is about" but it's another stereotype; another generalization used here to defend Dust at all cost from the outside world. Betas can be messed all you want but some games, even in beta, are better then others and people sees/knows it.
On these forums anyone that does not praise Dust is an idiot, a crybaby.
Idiots are the PS+ that thinks Dust is a poor FPS. Idiots are the journalists that says the same. And an idiot is Templar Two because he has said that for months. |
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Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 16:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
For me those shotguns work far too well.
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Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 09:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
^^^ We all hate that as if Pay to Win wasn't enough. Having to pay to communicate is going to create problems especially when Dust is advertised as a F2P.
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Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 12:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
You think I am trolling, well sorry to disappoint you I am not. It's easy to say that everyone that disagree a is troll; it very, very easy. PS+ players and journalists that don't find Dust good are not trolls: they are people and not idiots.
Many people here stay regardless of the insults they get, the personal attacks, or if they find the game funny or not and that's because they want to help: this is true testing. Sadly for you my, our, way to help is to talk about what's is wrong in Dust 514 and not praise it regardless of its state. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 09:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Saiibot wrote: I'm still trying to figure out whether this game is more P2W, or more G(rind)2W. P2C(hat) runs along the lines of being a big portion of ccp's P2W philosophy, since in the grand scheme of things communication with EvE players will be extremely vital to WINNING
For me there is definitely a very high risk that Dust will be a fully fledged Pay2Win. Anyone can get advantages from paying/buying with real money and I am sure a lot of people will save $30 just to be better equipped and have more skill faster. BF 3 allowed you to buy everything but still was not P2W because there was no stats to make you better: you could have unlocked everything but if you are mediocre in FPS yous stay mediocre. Also if you are good in FPS you can kill very much with any gun, even just pistols Your guns din't get better in BF 3 by buying them: here with a skill my guns get better WITHOUT TRADE-OFF.
Here militia guns are purposely inferior because just like in RPG common items/gear (militia) don't do much.
Stats here are fundamental and this is why "Adapt or Die" is form actually "Level up or die" |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 13:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
^^^ You prove me right. As you say, but you are not alone so be relieved, you just need to "level up" to get a bonus from a skill. And to get the skill you want what you need? XP And what better way to get that more XP that pay for a booster, and get them faster. You win because you get X% more XP simply because you payed for it. It doesn't matter if somebody is better then you, there is always someone better than you, what matters is that you can get more XP because you payed for it
2 poor players can both kill just 5 enemies but the one with the boost gets more, even if it is as poor as the other. He wins regardless of his skill. Sure a mediocre player will win small but things change if we compare two monster FPS players. If I score 35 kills in match and another guy does the same but has a booster HE gets more because he PAYED FOR THAT. He gets more Xp even if we deserve the same.
Ergo either I buy a boost and we get the same rewards, or I will always be disadvantaged just because I din't want to pay. A rich good player will win over a good poor player. A rich mediocre player will win more then a poor mediocre player.
This is pay to win!
Also players don't buy with real money because they want to compete, or use exploits or cheat, they do that for ego and because they want to win. In life there are persons that are poor of talent and have big bank accounts and they don't care if the victory they get is unmerited or if they achieved it unfairly, they only care for themselves. Here there will be poor/rich talented players that will buy to win just like in life, BUT this is a VG: here the size of you pocketbook should not matter, nor should the number of in-game skill you have. In FPS aim, reflexes and tactical thinking are the true divider but here far less because I can always pay to win.
1.5 more Xp is not much but it's still more then me. And why should you get more in a VG just because you are richer then me. We both play the same game but for you life is better because you payed for to get an advantage.
Also the whole concept of AUR is to buy something worth the price: if no advantage would come from booster or AUR gear nobody would buy. AUR items are better because they must be appealing. |
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