DUST Search - scouts and issue balancing with them. and stuff on movement

Norbar Recturus wrote:

Maybe you did, maybe you didn't... I just read through the thread again to see where my arguments were quoted and (not to my surprise) I couldn't find a post where my defenses to the scout's narrow hitbox and rapid strafing speed were addressed.

The point of the logic is that you said, "my ability to aim should be my only limiting factor," to which my response is, "No, in this game it shouldn't... and here's why." To which your response was then, "My argument is that {scouts} strafing speed should not be faster than an assault can track."

Now the funny thing about this is that if you look up at the long post I had (with all those points you addressed) you'd see that I specifically brought this up along with the fact that to properly track a scout you need to use elliptical ground movement. I can track scouts in a heavy suit using an HMG, I don't see why this is a problem for you (or anyone else for that matter).

You further your hole with this:

"You either nerf their strafing speed or boost how fast Assaults track. Just as I as an Assault should not go head to head with a Heavy, a Scout should not go head to head with an Assault. Otherwise, why play anything but Scout?"

Nothing should go head-to-head with a heavy except maybe another heavy... then again a heavy will not ever choose a "head-to-head" engagement because they're slow and easily flanked. Most heavy players will tell you they don't get to pick their engagements (at least not consistently without vehicular backup). Scouts currently engage assaults head on because of hit detection errors, not because they move around so fast it's impossible (as you suggest it is) to track a scout.

As to "why play anything but a scout suit?" Well that's easy: Scouts are fragile and they die easily... maybe I want to wield the big gun that blows up tanks... maybe I want to specialize in CQC engagement (which scouts are not suited to)... maybe I want to provide battlefield support and lock-down points (something which a logistics operator is more suited to, even moreso than a scout with a codebreaker). To bring this up was just foolish to begin with.

Now let's address this gem:

"Scouts aren't supposed to be front line troops, their role is Assassination and backstabbing." Says who? I prefer the front-line recon role mixed with Scout-sniper frontline Deployment. I also have a backup tank-hunter build specifically for people who decide to bring out 1+MM ISK tanks. None of those fits the criteria you specified (except maybe the scout-sniper as an assassin. Maybe). Players define the roles in this game, not the developer.

Now play with that and we'll talk later.


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Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.25 14:18:00 - [1] - Quote No suit should strafe faster than a suit can track. I'll add heavies as an exception because that was supposedly a way to balance the Armor + HMG combo from being OP. Just because you can track something doesn't mean you're going to hit it - you still have to aim. If a scout gets the jump on you, then you should die, but in a straight up brawl a scout should lose and lose horribly.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.25 17:06:00 - [2] - Quote Norbar Recturus wrote: Avenger 245 wrote: >their lightning fast movements and agility nean they move faster than are gun can track or are brains can keep up Am I the only one who noticed this? Emphasis mine. The only reason I bring this up is to highlight the quality of individual commenting on reducing the scout class down. If anything, this should serve as a clear warning to not pander to the mass opinion. Scouts shouldn't strafe faster than an Assault can track. You can avoid nerfing the scout strafe speed just by increasing suit tracking speed. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times... Just because you have the potential to hit someone with faster tracking, doesn't mean you will. You STILL have to aim because no amount of tracking speed increase is going to help against a well-played scout if you cannot place your shots well. I notice hit detection issues on all the suits, but the problem is magnified 10 fold on scouts.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.25 17:36:00 - [3] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: A bunch of us have mentioned the prob with scouts plenty of times. (both in this thread and many others) The prob is not with the speed of the scout, it's with the hit detection. The ideal solution would be to fix the "now improved, but still flawed" hit detection. This will make the scout mortal in cqc, at least to those with decent aim. As it stand right now, a scout can LITERALLY run THROUGH a stream of bullets, and nothing will register. This would be better than nerfing the speed because a. it still doesn't fix the flawed hit detection b. will likely ruin the scout completely, because of the low hp scouts have. They will lose their ONE advantage and become COMPLETELY useless. Their advantage is their smaller hit box, sig radius and speed. Presumably, they'll have a better synthesis with cloaking modules as well. Asking to turn their strafing speed from 5.6 to 5.4 doesn't make scout useless, it reinforces their role. That role being assassination, recon and backstabbing. NOT straight up duels and brawling. THAT is the Assault's role. Before I touched their speed, I would first increase the speed that Assault and Logi can track, if there is still a problem then maybe drop the Scout strafe speed down a peg. But no one is asking to give scouts the same 5.0-5.1 strafe speed that Assaults currently have.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.26 01:05:00 - [4] - Quote Darkz azurr wrote: my scout gets 1 shotted by a scrambler pistol , you guys want to nerf scouts . lol exactly how many of you guys that wanna nerf scouts have actually played as a scout. seriously go try scout and shotgun, yeah there deadly but they have to flank to be deadly. alot of people in dust bunch up together, making it extremely difficult for a cqc scout to be effective. there speed (ability to dodge a few bullets) and shield regen is all that keeps them alive . You just described how Scout is supposed to be played.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.26 01:11:00 - [5] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Abron Garr wrote: No suit should strafe faster than a suit can track. Isn't that kind of the idea behind speed tanking? In Eve sure. When they introduce auto-target with TEs and TCs using tracking scripts then I will happily concede your point. Since we have to manually target in Dust, as it should be in any respectable FPS, my aim should be my only limiting factor.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.26 16:19:00 - [6] - Quote Norbar Recturus wrote: Abron Garr wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Abron Garr wrote: No suit should strafe faster than a suit can track. Isn't that kind of the idea behind speed tanking? In Eve sure. When they introduce auto-target with TEs and TCs using tracking scripts then I will happily concede your point. Since we have to manually target in Dust, as it should be in any respectable FPS, my aim should be my only limiting factor. By that logic I should be able to: jump in the air and spin 720 degrees rapidly. That's a limit factor to killing people who pop up randomly while I'm in the air whip a heavy machine gun around like a spinning top of doom use a forge gun like an exploding sledgehammer Let me fix your sentence: Since we have to manually target in Dust there should be skills or modules which allow me to spin faster because Dust is not a traditional FPS. You're still thinking inside the CoD / Battlefield box. Imagine what EVE would be like if you had the option of Joystick manual control integrated suddenly. The game has been (and will forever be) a point-and-click MMO... but now there's the "element of skill" in piloting a ship "traditionally" like a "respectable vehicle sim game." Also, you never addressed a single one of my points. Nice dodge. I addressed every point in the quoted post. Perhaps you have me confused with another person. Don't put words in my mouth. I guess context isn't a word that holds much meaning with you. Your list is as trivial as your argument. So, because Heavies turn slower with an HMG (intended to limit the deadly potential of the HMG), Scouts should be able to step all over the role that Assault was intended to play? Scouts aren't supposed to be front line troops, their role is Assassination and backstabbing. And BTW, no one is saying that a scout shouldn't be the fastest strafing suit. My argument is their strafing speed should not be faster than an Assault can track. You either nerf their strafing speed or boost how fast Assaults track. Just as I as an Assault should not go head to head with a Heavy, a Scout should not go head to head with an Assault. Otherwise, why play anything but Scout? And yes, I do think highly of BF and COD. You would have to be a moron to deny that both games got a lot of things right. Both are successful franchises and it would be idiotic to completely ignore their success. TOR ignored previous successful MMO features and they're paying for it now. I don't want Dust to do the same.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.27 05:03:00 - [7] - Quote Norbar Recturus wrote: Maybe you did, maybe you didn't... I just read through the thread again to see where my arguments were quoted and (not to my surprise) I couldn't find a post where my defenses to the scout's narrow hitbox and rapid strafing speed were addressed. The point of the logic is that you said, "my ability to aim should be my only limiting factor," to which my response is, "No, in this game it shouldn't... and here's why." To which your response was then, "My argument is that {scouts} strafing speed should not be faster than an assault can track." Now the funny thing about this is that if you look up at the long post I had (with all those points you addressed) you'd see that I specifically brought this up along with the fact that to properly track a scout you need to use elliptical ground movement. I can track scouts in a heavy suit using an HMG, I don't see why this is a problem for you (or anyone else for that matter). You further your hole with this: "You either nerf their strafing speed or boost how fast Assaults track. Just as I as an Assault should not go head to head with a Heavy, a Scout should not go head to head with an Assault. Otherwise, why play anything but Scout?" Nothing should go head-to-head with a heavy except maybe another heavy... then again a heavy will not ever choose a "head-to-head" engagement because they're slow and easily flanked. Most heavy players will tell you they don't get to pick their engagements (at least not consistently without vehicular backup). *Scouts currently engage assaults head on because of hit detection errors, not because they move around so fast it's impossible* (as you suggest it is) to track a scout.** As to "why play anything but a scout suit?" Well that's easy: Scouts are fragile and they die easily... maybe I want to wield the big gun that blows up tanks... maybe I want to specialize in CQC engagement (which scouts are not suited to)... maybe I want to provide battlefield support and lock-down points (something which a logistics operator is more suited to, even moreso than a scout with a codebreaker). To bring this up was just foolish to begin with. Now let's address this gem: "Scouts aren't supposed to be front line troops, their role is Assassination and backstabbing." Says who? I prefer the front-line recon role mixed with Scout-sniper frontline Deployment. I also have a backup tank-hunter build specifically for people who decide to bring out 1+MM ISK tanks. None of those fits the criteria you specified (except maybe the scout-sniper as an assassin. Maybe). Players define the roles in this game, not the developer. Now play with that and we'll talk later. First off, drop the arrogant and condescending tone. It doesn't help your argument and it makes you come off like a douche. If you're incapable of discussing things like a mature adult then this discussion isn't going to go very far. If you're upset because I killed you or blew up your tank, I assure you it wasn't personal. You're keen to take things out of context, and as we all know, context is very important. Because Dust is an FPS at heart, aim should obviously play a crucial role in someone's success. When I face a good scout (keyword being good) in a brawl my primary concern is how well I can aim in order to put him down. My issue is the Assault suit has a hard cap on how fast it can track the scout. No reason given; it's just there. At least we all know why CCP limited the tracking of the heavy suit; high armor coupled with a (once) deadly HMG. I think most of us would agree that concession was necessary to keep the game fun. Now, the scout can strafe with a speed of 5.6. I don't know why CCP settled on 5.6 instead of 5.4 or even 5.8, it's probably an arbitrary number settled on as a placeholder, this being a Beta after all. But the difference between tracking and 5.6 feels significant in certain cases because it allows the scout to usurp the role that Assault was intended to play by brawling as front line troops. Everyone seems to have their own theory and ideas behind why they have this edge. I'll concede that hit detection probably plays a role in some cases, but certainly not all. However, my money is on the strafing. For the last part, may I refer you to the in-game description listed under each suit on the market? If you're unable to log in then try this for Scout and this for Assault. Now, as tentative as these descriptions may be, they give a good outline regarding their respective roles. Now, that isn't to say we can't use unconventional fits to suit the occasion- I encourage it. Unfortunately, Scout (as of now) steps over the role that Assault was intended to play. I'll say it again, I'm not asking for scout to be made useless. Either lower the scout's strafing speed down a few notches to say 5.4-5 or boost the tracking for assault to better match the strafe speed. The latter is probably the easiest, and arguably less contested choice due to the fact that no one has to get nerfed. Scout would still be the fastest in strafe, still the most maneuverable, still the hardest to hit. But when they try to take on the role that assault is meant for, they run the risk of paying for it when they try to brawl instead of assassinate. Edit: As an aside, I put in bold the parts of your post that are just plain wrong. If you need, I can address those later but for sake of space I'll avoid it here.