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Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
   |
Posted - 2012.08.23 18:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
The new economy, does it tilt the playing field in favor of P2W?
Wait a minute, what is going on here, by the way? Something just doesn't seem right.
Well, some people will always try to pay to win in this game. It is inevitable.
I think I have the solution
So we just started testing a new economy. And one of the first things that I started getting a little concerned about was the temptation to start sinking more money into the AUR items. Because the payouts from matches were not really enough for me to afford to run the gear I was skilling for. And then I thought, wait a minute!?! If the game is structured so that a player always makes very little ISK, but continues to pile up skill points, they will almost inevitably be better off using AUR items if they have the money. And if the game were being rigged to make AUR the way to go that would suck.
But then I have had the occasional matches with a few odd payouts. 98,000 ISK matches where I had a KDR something like 5/6. 43,000 ISK matches once when I was lucky enough to go something like 9/2. Something doesn't seem to add up.
So here is my theory: ISK payout at the end of the match is based on the value of the gear your opponent loses in match.
And that would be the balanced solution to what we are seeing now, an in game economy that unfortunately really does look like a tilt in favor of pay to win at the present time.
If my theory is correct, basically we are seeing something like a deflationary not exactly spiral, more like flatline in the ISK market. Compared to last build. Something along the lines of: Players are afraid of losing money so they fight in the cheap gear, rewards are based on the value of the gear lost in any given match, if only cheap gear is used earnings will remain low or stagnate. SP gain will eventually exert pressure on players to start using higher level gear. Some will have "real world" money to burn and will resort to AUR gear. If expensive AUR gear is used in matches players should see the earnings reflected in ISK when those AUR players are killed.
In that case the AUR players will only have the advantage of losing their gear in matches a few weeks earlier than ISK only players. Eventually we should start seeing higher earnings in ISK for every match as players make more money and thus bring more expensive gear to battle, only to be killed.
One good thing the market "balancing" can do is keep players from using Proto gear to curb stomp new players in militia gear. I think we are seeing some of that balancing now. It could be that all of the "but I can't afford to fight in the gear I have the SP to use" comes from the fact that the vast majority of the DUST player population is still just starting out, relatively speaking. So what we are seeing is "balance" that is driven by market forces.
I'll end this post with a few questions I have been mulling over...
How should the payouts work? That is, should they be evenly distributed between all members of a team? Squad? Or should the high earners in matches get a direct payout based on the value of the gear their opponent was using when they got destroyed?
I kind of like the second option, as it would encourage more players to hunt tanks, and would more evenly reflect the value of a players contribution... right now someone could go 42/ 1 driving around a tank but if they only ever killed grunts in militia gear they deserve scant pay.
Then again, if a team or 3 works together to take down a geared up opponent, how should earnings be shared in that instance?
This is all just wild theorizing, but I am glad that CCP is pushing the game in a different direction and will be interested to see how things stand in a few weeks.
And stop asking for a hand out. This is EVE, not some socialist Utopia.  |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hah, well, if my theory is correct, you guys are the ones that are holding the earnings back for the rest of us. Get out that proto gear and die a little, would ya? If everyone is saving, no one is earning. |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Naturi Riclenore wrote:would suggest to OP... RTFM..  It's stickied at the top. Scroll almost to the end of the manual... there's your answer (right after page 15)
Oh, you mean this passage in the manual:
"The amount of ISK earned is dependent on the level of battle consumption - - battles with more advanced players with better gear will earn you more than beginner battles."
That says nothing about whether or not it is based on the value of the gear you destroy by killing another player, nor what determines whether a battle is "beginner" or "advanced." It could mean that there is a set payout based on an arbitrary value given to the battle level.
Which would mean that an "advanced" battle would have a high payout, even if all the players decided to wear militia gear the entire fight.
Obviously I was getting at a market mechanic more subtle than what you can infer from the manual, and perhaps slightly more "advanced" than your "beginner" reply.
TL;DR? learn to read. I have. I've even read the users manual. |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Saiibot wrote:Those who pay for their gear using AUR doesn't have a clear cut advantage over those who paid with ISK
True. I was posting about a more murky "perceived" advantage. |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 22:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Carilito wrote:
Advanced in this context mean skill points because it clearly states beginner as a qualifier; then goes on to state when you run out of money use militia gear to replenish isk without losing as much money.
The last sentence is important but you cut it out, since it makes the qualifier that you will be make similar amounts of isk in militia gear, in proto but with the risk of losing more in higher tier gear.
Put two and two together and you quickly realize matches are determined by amount of sp players have.
We learned to read did you?
Here is the sentence you mentioned:
"If you are running short on funds, try going back to playing with your starting gear. That starting gear comes from your BPOs so it will not be consumed upon character's death, which means that you will be spending less on replenishing lost items."
This only speaks to saving money through not losing any in battle by using BPOs instead of BPCs. It does not mention anything about how the payout at the end of the match is determined. It does not speak to how much you will make, just that you will spend less (now, nothing, later, perhaps a little something) per match.
Making the leap from that sentence to conclude that player skill points determine if a match is designated "beginner" or "advanced" might not be an incorrect assumption, but it isn't anything that you can put together from the description of Rewards found in the manual and quoted above.
Also, the Instant Battle feature and the way matchmaking is being done in these battles is completely new. The manual is outdated.
Right now pay out seems arbitrary and I am guessing (not supported by any evidence) that reward is based on the cost of what you blow up in battle. It is a theory, no more. But I think it would be a really intriguing and dynamic thing to do in this game, and would be really interesting, further, if the payout you got for killing an AU geared character was based on the current market value in ISK of the AU item.
But if ISK reward is just an arbitrary value set by CCP and based on the the skill points of you opponent then that payout could be tilted to favor players buying and using AUR gear. Even is some players can always win using militia fittings.
Edit* It was probably unclear in my orginal post which was somewhat rushed. But what I am saying is that you get more ISK for killing someone else that is using expensive gear. I am not saying that you get a higher reward for getting killed while wearing high level gear. Not at all. But eventually that ISK lost by the proto guy that gets killed will find it's way back into the market and help raise payouts across the board. Unless everyon tries to save. That is where you get into earnings stagnation even as you gain skill points. |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 22:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:The real risk is no one will pay since you can't buy anything that really matters when a militia shotgun or grenade pops out of nowhere.
This is also true. If there is no reward for investing in more expensive gear and players get all the advantage they want from skill point gains in damage dealt, shied and armor regen, etc. while playing in militia gear then things will also stagnate. |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 04:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Stupid Drunk1 wrote:I stopped reading when he stated deflation, lols this is higly inflationary the new build, we did not get falling prices with more valuable wages.
Hah, yeah, got me there. Good catch. Was trying to come up with something that describes what happens when risk averse buyers start penny pinching and saving their money rather than let it out into the market.
I was gonna go with stagflation... but you can't really have deflation or inflation when the price of goods is fixed by some powerful agency.
If the price of goods is fixed but there is some deflationary mechanism at work in the economy (ie, all those people squirreling away their ISK and only fighting in militia gear) the wages will flatline. If DUST had a true player market we might be seeing a corresponding fall in the price of goods as well.
However, if wages are at least in part based on the cost of gear you as a player destroy, then my point still stands that we should see a corresponding rise in wages, no matter the currency (AUR vs ISK) used to purchase goods and services. Especially if players start using lots of AUR to buy equipment because end of match ISK payouts are "too low".
Edit* Also, we should start seeing some wage inflation if payout is in part based on the inflated prices of the gear that is destroyed in match. If players buy and use that higher priced gear.
It is just going to take a little longer for the whole thing to get going. RIght now we aren't seeing that so much. We aree basically seeing price inflation and low wages... |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 16:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Leo Plaude wrote:
And so that we do not get off the topic of discussion, back to 'AUR = P2W?'
My conclusion, now supported by:
Nova Knife wrote:
The exact formula has not been disclosed, but they gave us an idea.
Contract base fee + (x% value of destroyed assets) + ( modifier based on number of hacks ) + ( Modifier based on team support) = final payout amount.
Everyone using cheap gear does result in a lower payout.
Is that no, in the current set up, even with very low payout at the end of match, AUR still will not be pay to win for anyone. Instead players spending more on AUR will eventually lead to a rise in reward for everyone in ISK. |
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