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Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
91
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Posted - 2012.08.23 05:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Played a couple matches dominated by tanks tonight and no one seemed to have anything to counter them. I used the SWARM I had but didn't hardly do any damage to the tanks. Just made me wonder the following:
Is tank leveling being done faster than AV leveling, such as leveling decent AV weapons like the higher end SWARMs and unlocking FORGEs?
I'm not too into vehicle leveling so I do not know the particulars with levelng there but am familiar with weapon leveling including Forge. Could someone famliar with both vehicle leveling and weapon leveling answer this question? Because if tank leveling occurs faster than the weapons needed to properly counter them, the skill tree may need another look. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.08.23 05:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
The tank takes a lot more sp and isk not to be destroyed |
Renzo Kuken
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
369
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Posted - 2012.08.23 05:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nomed Deeps wrote:Played a couple matches dominated by tanks tonight and no one seemed to have anything to counter them. I used the SWARM I had but didn't hardly do any damage to the tanks. Just made me wonder the following:
Is tank leveling being done faster than AV leveling, such as leveling decent AV weapons like the higher end SWARMs and unlocking FORGEs?
I'm not too into vehicle leveling so I do not know the particulars with levelng there but am familiar with weapon leveling including Forge. Could someone famliar with both vehicle leveling and weapon leveling answer this question? Because if tank leveling occurs faster than the weapons needed to properly counter them, the skill tree may need another look.
people are spending all there points into HAV skills right after the wipe while everybody else went assault and Logi
then as soon as you are just able to get a tank you can pretty much face roll a match provided you kill at a distance and have a decent gunner
had a friend that went 30-0 and he dumps all the skills into HAV related skills
my advice is to start dropping points into Swarm launcher related skills so you can have a decent chance at killing them
people keep forgetting that spec-ing into a tank is a class choice
just like assault or being a sniper |
Sees-Too-Much
332
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Posted - 2012.08.23 05:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
T1 HAVs require vehicle command IV and factional HAV I: 378,800 SP
They will also require large turrets: Large turret I, small turret IV, and turret op I add up to: 296,960 SP
They will also require skills for mods, but a decent AV will also require them, so I'll leave that off. Total SP required: 675,760.
T1 Forges require Weaponry IV and Forge gun op I: 266,240 SP.
Heavy dropsuit I, if you didn't start with it: 81,920
Total investment assuming you didn't start with Heavy I: 348,160.
Or, alternatively, AV grenades, which require grenadier I: 40,960 SP.
The reason you're seeing so many tanks is that a lot of people (myself included) are fitting T1 gear to militia tanks. Militia tanks don't require HAV I, so the only skills needed are for turrets (still more than needed for forges) and mods . But you don't necessarily need dedicated forge gunners to take out militia tanks, you can take them out with AV grenades and militia swarm launchers, as long as you show some organization about it. |
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
173
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Posted - 2012.08.23 06:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
pretty much what these people have said. you dont just call in a tank cause your feeling sassy....im a driver, just like someone else is a sniper or a logi. its what i do and i dont have a single sp point into anything not tank related. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2012.08.23 06:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Spending SP to use a tank pays off basically every game. Tanks are almost always good to have. Spending SP on anti-vehicle weaponry is situational. If people aren't using vehicles, your SP are not paying off. So being a tank driver is a more reliable use of SP than being an anti-tank forge gun/swarm launcher user. With SP being in relatively short supply these days, people have elected to spend their SP where they figure it'll do them the most good. |
Purple Lipton
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
33
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Posted - 2012.08.23 06:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think you don't see a lot of higher tier AV weapons because of how expensive they are, and how much easier to lose the isk then you are in a high tier tank right now. |
The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
1060
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 06:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
and people make the same mistake again. Specing into everything but not that whats needed. A good tank driver wont use his tank until its high end in terms of modules. You basically need this here to make a good fit:
-Shield/armor upgrades (depends on the tank itself)
-Turrets
-skill to unlock amplifiers
-shield/armor repair modules
-vehicle command on V+Hav on lvl 1 (only when you go for something better as a militia tank)
I would recommend to spec into large missile turrets cause when you go after that you unlock the small missile turrets aswell. And large missile turrets got buffed ALOT. I would recommend one that has faster flying missiles so you can pick off targets at longer distances. Well the rest is just skill at handling your vehicle. Believe me in around 1 and a half week we will see more tanks. Its allready slowly growing up and you see a few guys rocking with gunnlogis and militia tanks. If you dont invest SP into Av weapons then you are doomed. |
STB-TedNugent EV
159
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Posted - 2012.08.23 06:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
I love seeing this post.... I started with assault skills then once i got enough to make my militia assault rifle make a differece i went in to vehicle... may someone help you all |
Pent'noir
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2012.08.23 07:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yes, I'm doomed for a month of tanks rolling over me before other ppl get the gist that there aren't enough av ppl to handle whats about to come. |
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Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
65
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Posted - 2012.08.23 07:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Just saying, the SP required to make your tank viable against AV weapons is 1mil in either mechanics or engineering. For 1mil SP you could have Forge gun operation 5 and proficiency 3.
BTW Large missile turrets are stupid, Hybrids for da win!
As for mini turrets, since your dealing with pubbies just get small missile launcher operation 2 and put 2 cycled launchers on.
Edit+ BTW just remembered my greatest threat in matches : people with AV grenades, they say 36 damage but do about 2000. So grenade skills to 3, 150,000 sp, and you and maybe a ally can take out every vehicle you run into if your smart. |
STB-TedNugent EV
159
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Posted - 2012.08.23 07:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Antonius Dacinci wrote:Just saying, the SP required to make your tank viable against AV weapons is 1mil in either mechanics or engineering. For 1mil SP you could have Forge gun operation 5 and proficiency 3.
BTW Large missile turrets are stupid, Hybrids for da win!
As for mini turrets, since your dealing with pubbies just get small missile launcher operation 2 and put 2 cycled launchers on.
Edit+ BTW just remembered my greatest threat in matches : people with AV grenades, they say 36 damage but do about 2000. So grenade skills to 3, 150,000 sp, and you and maybe a ally can take out every vehicle you run into if your smart.
You have to take into consideration the fit of the tank. Your av may do a lot of damage but when im stacked with resistances your av isnt anything to my gunnlogi.. how is it going to hold up to my sagaris find out within 2 days..... good luck to you all... havent got to try a black ops yet im looking forward to it... |
Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
65
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Posted - 2012.08.23 07:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Actually mine is stacked with resistances, I ran into you twice, we had a rather even shoot off but I think you had the new tech turrets xD I got you down to hull on both encounters but couldn't finish you off because you ambushed me *Shakes fist* I shall remeber your name till revenge is mine! |
STB-TedNugent EV
159
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Posted - 2012.08.23 07:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Antonius Dacinci wrote:Actually mine is stacked with resistances, I ran into you twice, we had a rather even shoot off but I think you had the new tech turrets xD I got you down to hull on both encounters but couldn't finish you off because you ambushed me *Shakes fist* I shall remeber your name till revenge is mine!
please dont hurt my little baby... lol im looking forward to it friend any time i lose a tank i learn something new and gain from that more than i do just killing.... you should look us up and play along side of us rather than want to kill me :-) |
Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
65
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Posted - 2012.08.23 07:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
xD BTW the second time you fragged my tank I decided to hunt you down with a swarm launcher and you went to that weird zone on the map the crashes ps3s it you look at the sky just right, and i was like lawl and stole your tank and got a very exact look at your build :3 our tanks are much more similar then you might expect.
Otherwise Maybe after the game establishes itself abit better and we get some corps going, for now you need someone out there giving you competition, see you on the field of war. |
Domingo Cervezas
Cult of the Warrior
15
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Posted - 2012.08.23 08:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
AV grenades do wonders and I haven't added any skills into it. |
STB-TedNugent EV
159
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Posted - 2012.08.23 08:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Antonius Dacinci wrote:xD BTW the second time you fragged my tank I decided to hunt you down with a swarm launcher and you went to that weird zone on the map the crashes ps3s it you look at the sky just right, and i was like lawl and stole your tank and got a very exact look at your build :3 our tanks are much more similar then you might expect.
Otherwise Maybe after the game establishes itself abit better and we get some corps going, for now you need someone out there giving you competition, see you on the field of war.
not going into detail but if you stole my tank and it survived i get it back just saying... i have already tested this theory... all you would have seen is my rep.... lol |
STB-TedNugent EV
159
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Posted - 2012.08.23 08:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
as long as it survives the entire round.... |
Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
65
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Posted - 2012.08.23 08:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
I was attempting to use it to go break stuff but i happened to look at the exact same spot and crashed 4 minutes later that was... annoying xD |
The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
1060
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 09:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Antonius Dacinci wrote:Just saying, the SP required to make your tank viable against AV weapons is 1mil in either mechanics or engineering. For 1mil SP you could have Forge gun operation 5 and proficiency 3.
BTW Large missile turrets are stupid, Hybrids for da win!
As for mini turrets, since your dealing with pubbies just get small missile launcher operation 2 and put 2 cycled launchers on.
Edit+ BTW just remembered my greatest threat in matches : people with AV grenades, they say 36 damage but do about 2000. So grenade skills to 3, 150,000 sp, and you and maybe a ally can take out every vehicle you run into if your smart.
Why are they stupid? They are perfect to take out any kind of infantry and deal quite a good amount of damage. |
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Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
65
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Posted - 2012.08.23 09:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
xD I was being derp. I actually do think they are a effective weapon that fills a specific niche but not very amazingly, I am curios to see how they last long term also I like the large cycled missile launcher, FOR TWICE THE PEWPEW |
Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
91
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Posted - 2012.08.23 13:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thanks for the replies. They were are actually helpful instead of the normal "you're stupid" or "you should be awesome like me" replies that have hindered me from posting much in these forums. |
SteelDark Knight
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2012.08.23 14:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nomed, I have run in to the same type of matches and had the same experience.
There are several factors in play. Players whom have been around awhile have seen the huge advantage running a HAV had in prior builds and correctly assumed that immediately building towards it would have an advantage in this build. As such they put a minimum of SP in the typical infantry type skills and moved to invest all points in to HAV. Then, once they have put the necessary points in place and ISK in the bank to consistently run a decent HAV in matches their acquisition rate of SP and ISK increases dramatically as they start to dominate matches thus cycling themselves even further ahead of the curve as they strengthen their tanking skills and defenses. So yes, tanking skills will outpace AV skills not because of base cost but because of the higher rate of SP gained.
Your standard player invests first in to straight infantry type skills and as such is not equipped to deal with the threat. In addition there is for the most part currently a lack of the communication and coordination that is required for ground forces to counter the threat. You will occasionally see one or even two players try to switch to AV builds but in general they will not be able to fully counter the threat as maps are large enough for the smart HAV driver to outrace the team attempting to counter them or place themselves under buildings/obstructions to reduce the ability of AV teams to use Swarms, etc. to try to counter. In addition a lot of the counters (aerial vehicles, Forge Guns) have seen their abilities reduced via changes introduced this build.
So for the time being we have entered the age of Tanks.
The good news is that eventually as players tire of being wiped out and dominated they will start to invest themselves in means to counter the threat. Tactics will improve, coordination will improve, and tanks will start to feel more pressure. Or, in the worst case CCP will tire of the complaining (or worry about a player base that declines due to imbalance) and either introduce more AV options or nerf the tank.
Tanks will continue to be a dominant force but perhaps not as much as they will be for the next few weeks. This has all happened before (last build) and will happen again.
For now GÇô run! :p |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
324
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Posted - 2012.08.23 14:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
AV grenades are awesome...use them. I took out a gunnlogi last night with them. The only difficulty was catching up to it so I could throw the things. If a couple more people on my team had been using AV nades that tank would not have lasted long at all. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.08.23 14:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
just give me 200 meter rage forge gun and ill fix the invincible tanks. 50 meters aint enough to deal with this. |
Ravhin keq
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
5
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Posted - 2012.08.23 15:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:AV grenades are awesome...use them. I took out a gunnlogi last night with them. The only difficulty was catching up to it so I could throw the things. If a couple more people on my team had been using AV nades that tank would not have lasted long at all.
Me and a friend did that on Saturday all we did was load up AV grenades and a Nanohive spent 3 hours killing tanks/LAV. we hunted them like crazy would put squad commands to attack them which gave us extra XP for taking them down. |
Corban Lahnder
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
158
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Posted - 2012.08.23 16:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think an easy solution to this is just upping the SP required to command tanks. If its easier to get decent AV weapons and really hard to grind up for tanks, its a bigger reward for the people that actually grind up the SP to get the vehicle.
Got to say tank spam in Death matches is an atrocity. |
Gelan Corbaine
BetaMax.
103
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Posted - 2012.08.23 16:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
The problem aint the tank .......but the mo fos standing around it. They make life very hard for the AV heavy. And it's only going to worse when the militia nerf comes in. The FG nerf has put us right in their sweet spot .
Now a heavy steps out to take a shot at the tank and every red dot in the area turns and shoots him which will now throw off his aim if not kill him . Meanwhile the guys that are suppose to protect AV heavy from them are getting slaughtered by the tank .
Course the AV guy can whip out an SMG and defend himself a little . But AV Guys with SMG's out are no threat to a tank.
Same with using the FG to kill infantry . It's a. hard to do . And b. means less ammo for the tank .
So what this means is AV heavies are pretty much forced to make a suicidal commitment to take out a tank . Thing is the current economy wont let him do that . AV makes much less than a tanker simply due to his rate of survival expectancy . Absolute minimal fit for AV Heavy is 20 K isk unless you want to go Shock and tickle the good tanks .
This is FG , AV grenade and the rest all militia. 3 or 4 deaths and you barely break even . It gets worse if you add Standard heavy type 1. A dedicated AV will quickly find himself in the red without heavily supplementing it with a dedicated AI fit.
In a nutshell a pure isk war tanker > AV specialist as he is more likely to survive to make that isk than the AV guy is .
The answer then ? As Iron said FG really needs it's range back . Maybe no the infinite range from last build but much more than it is now to increase his survivability a bit more with proper support .
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