DUST Search - Force Multiplication

Lurchasaurus wrote:

Grit Breather wrote:

Stupid Drunk1 wrote:

Its from wikipedia, the example, and you are confusing, where you get the 5 from, they are comparing a small force with gps to a large fore without it. In other words they are comparing a small force with technology a large force does not have. To make another example on the fly a small force of 6 dust mercs using protogear versus 12 men in militia, the factor or multiplier double it size would be 2.

I'll explain again as you seem to have missed my question.
For all these force multipliers there is some sort of a force designated as a base 1.0 force. If this never changed we'd still be comparing ourselves to cavemen with rocks and everything today would have a force multiplier of 1000+.
What I'm interested in is the moments in time when the base force changes. For example, when did/does GPS become standard for this base force?

The base force has to keep changing ro we'll just get to very high numbers for no reason.

its relative to your own team/side. you are the standard.

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 08:46:00 - [1] - Quote This game has assets and virtual skills that create Force multiplication, in military usage, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective than that same force would be without it. The expected size increase required to have the same effectiveness without that advantage is the multiplication factor. For example, if a certain technology like GPS enables a force to accomplish the same results of a force five times as large but without GPS, then the multiplier is 5. Think the Dark Flock compare them to PRO in MAG, to get the point. The use of small numbers of specialists to create larger effective forces is another form of multiplication. The basic A Team of US Army Special Forces is a 12-man unit (Think ProtoMan-esque squad of Dark Flock) that can train and lead a company-sized unit (100-200 men) of local guerrillas(Professionals). However old wounds from MAG prevent the Dark Flock from working with other collective groups below their abilities, isolating themselves, and allies. While it is not clear when the term "force multiplier" first appeared in the military literature, the use of small teams to raise much larger guerrilla units was among the first uses of the term. Such estimates are used to justify an investment cost for force multipliers. A force multiplier refers to a factor that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item or group.
Grit Breather BetaMax. 660	Posted - 2012.08.12 08:54:00 - [2] - Quote Very interesting, thank you. I do have a question though. In your example of GPS usage and a theoretical multiplier of 5, when does this reset itself? What I mean is that GPS is very common nowadays. You would have a very hard time finding a unit (or even civilian car) without one. So when does that 5 become 1 again? (turning the old 1 into 1/5)
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.08.12 08:55:00 - [3] - Quote awesome info. people need to realize skills arent simply a stat boost to aid people who have played longer, force multiplication is a great way to explain how skills work. +1
Iceyburnz 316	Posted - 2012.08.12 08:58:00 - [4] - Quote Stupid Drunk1 wrote: For example, if a certain technology like GPS enables a force to accomplish the same results of a force five times as large but without GPS, then the multiplier is 5. In many ways this game isn't high tech enough. We need more Battlespace visibility options. Id like to see intelligence being a viable career choice beyond playing "scout sniper on a perch".
Grit Breather BetaMax. 660	Posted - 2012.08.12 08:59:00 - [5] - Quote Iceyburnz wrote: Stupid Drunk1 wrote: For example, if a certain technology like GPS enables a force to accomplish the same results of a force five times as large but without GPS, then the multiplier is 5. In many ways this game isn't high tech enough. We need more Battlespace visibility options. Id like to see intelligence being a viable career choice beyond playing "scout sniper on a perch". With time...Give it all time... Dust has a long way to go before we see the complexities of its bigger brother.
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 09:25:00 - [6] - Quote Grit Breather wrote: Very interesting, thank you. I do have a question though. In your example of GPS usage and a theoretical multiplier of 5, when does this reset itself? What I mean is that GPS is very common nowadays. You would have a very hard time finding a unit (or even civilian car) without one. So when does that 5 become 1 again? (turning the old 1 into 1/5) Its from wikipedia, the example, and you are confusing, where you get the 5 from, they are comparing a small force with gps to a large fore without it. In other words they are comparing a small force with technology a large force does not have. To make another example on the fly a small force of 6 dust mercs using protogear versus 12 men in militia, the factor or multiplier double it size would be 2. The factor was 5 in the wiki example because the smaller force can meet or exceed the larger force of 5 (x) times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication I love wikipedia because its neutral compared to other sources people use
Grit Breather BetaMax. 660	Posted - 2012.08.12 09:35:00 - [7] - Quote Stupid Drunk1 wrote: Its from wikipedia, the example, and you are confusing, where you get the 5 from, they are comparing a small force with gps to a large fore without it. In other words they are comparing a small force with technology a large force does not have. To make another example on the fly a small force of 6 dust mercs using protogear versus 12 men in militia, the factor or multiplier double it size would be 2. I'll explain again as you seem to have missed my question. For all these force multipliers there is some sort of a force designated as a base 1.0 force. If this never changed we'd still be comparing ourselves to cavemen with rocks and everything today would have a force multiplier of 1000+. What I'm interested in is the moments in time when the base force changes. For example, when did/does GPS become standard for this base force? The base force has to keep changing ro we'll just get to very high numbers for no reason.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.08.12 09:44:00 - [8] - Quote Grit Breather wrote: Stupid Drunk1 wrote: Its from wikipedia, the example, and you are confusing, where you get the 5 from, they are comparing a small force with gps to a large fore without it. In other words they are comparing a small force with technology a large force does not have. To make another example on the fly a small force of 6 dust mercs using protogear versus 12 men in militia, the factor or multiplier double it size would be 2. I'll explain again as you seem to have missed my question. For all these force multipliers there is some sort of a force designated as a base 1.0 force. If this never changed we'd still be comparing ourselves to cavemen with rocks and everything today would have a force multiplier of 1000+. What I'm interested in is the moments in time when the base force changes. For example, when did/does GPS become standard for this base force? The base force has to keep changing ro we'll just get to very high numbers for no reason. its relative to your own team/side. you are the standard.
Grit Breather BetaMax. 660	Posted - 2012.08.12 09:47:00 - [9] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Grit Breather wrote: Stupid Drunk1 wrote: Its from wikipedia, the example, and you are confusing, where you get the 5 from, they are comparing a small force with gps to a large fore without it. In other words they are comparing a small force with technology a large force does not have. To make another example on the fly a small force of 6 dust mercs using protogear versus 12 men in militia, the factor or multiplier double it size would be 2. I'll explain again as you seem to have missed my question. For all these force multipliers there is some sort of a force designated as a base 1.0 force. If this never changed we'd still be comparing ourselves to cavemen with rocks and everything today would have a force multiplier of 1000+. What I'm interested in is the moments in time when the base force changes. For example, when did/does GPS become standard for this base force? The base force has to keep changing ro we'll just get to very high numbers for no reason. its relative to your own team/side. you are the standard. That's fine for basic use. But when you want to compare two units to each other which are not you. There has to be some standard. A completely relative system can't stand.
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 09:47:00 - [10] - Quote Grit Breather wrote: Stupid Drunk1 wrote: Its from wikipedia, the example, and you are confusing, where you get the 5 from, they are comparing a small force with gps to a large fore without it. In other words they are comparing a small force with technology a large force does not have. To make another example on the fly a small force of 6 dust mercs using protogear versus 12 men in militia, the factor or multiplier double it size would be 2. I'll explain again as you seem to have missed my question. For all these force multipliers there is some sort of a force designated as a base 1.0 force. If this never changed we'd still be comparing ourselves to cavemen with rocks and everything today would have a force multiplier of 1000+. What I'm interested in is the moments in time when the base force changes. For example, when did/does GPS become standard for this base force? The base force has to keep changing ro we'll just get to very high numbers for no reason. See you are wrong and right again because comparing ourselves still to cavemen is not wrong, its simple mathematical equation used to justify war expenditures when using tax dollars. Comparing ourselves to cavemen, yield very high force multipliers. 1 man with a modern gun trained in CqC could wipe a room full of cavemen, resulting a insane KDR and Force Multiplier gps is not the standard The equation is simply in simplest form ( Force + Tech / force of the enemy - Tech) GPS in the example you seem to miss every time is that it is simply a substitute, you could substitute any technology, with A force uses over B force. If A force has access to nukes, instead of GPS, and B force did not, what would you think the force multiplier would be? Could a small force with a Nuke be as effective as largere army without one? If that large army was 30 (x) times the size of smaller force with nukes, its multiplier would be that of 30. GPS was used as in the wikipedia example for laymen to understand the concept, a force, which could have been cavemen with gps, or navy seals with gps taking on mayans without GPS or Russian spetnaz without it. In dust 514 you would take [the size of your force + all technologies (includes skills, vehicles etc) / by the size of the enemy force - technologies] you could end up with a negative number just as KDR if you are a Zerg clan

Grit Breather BetaMax. 660	Posted - 2012.08.12 09:55:00 - [11] - Quote I do see your points. I understand everything you're saying, I'm just trying to take it all a step further. As for my sticking to GPS, that is just for the sake of using the same example. I don't have any GPS complexities. Now I'll take your last example. Force A and force B are of the same size. Force A has GPS and force B has a nuke. As there is no single advantage or disadvantage to either side, there must be agreement about a base force. One which has no GPS and no nuke. That's the only way to compare the force multipliers between both forces. I hope that is clearer now.
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 10:54:00 - [12] - Quote Grit Breather wrote: I do see your points. I understand everything you're saying, I'm just trying to take it all a step further. As for my sticking to GPS, that is just for the sake of using the same example. I don't have any GPS complexities. Now I'll take your last example. Force A and force B are of the same size. Force A has GPS and force B has a nuke. As there is no single advantage or disadvantage to either side, there must be agreement about a base force. One which has no GPS and no nuke. That's the only way to compare the force multipliers between both forces. I hope that is clearer now. Now I'll take your last example. Force A and force B are of the same size. When both forces are the same size and the have technology same and diffrent or anything imbetween, or their training; caveman versus navy seals equal in size, the equation become more complex, the more variables added the more precise the equation is versus just accuracy. [Force A size + tech - missing tech of Force B/ Force B + tech - missing tech of Force A = ] Force A (would have the same value of B) GPS(wopuld be given a value) - nukes (given value ) / force B(would have the same value of A) + a nuke (given a value) - GPS (given a value)= So if a ZERG clan wih Nukes should always be force A, a Elite Clan(small) with nukes should always be Force A . Force B should no matter what size small or large etc be GPS. Combinations are more important then permutations, but using permutations are not wrong, and more detailed but can be redundant. example Force A Small + GPS... / Force B Large - Nuke... = Force A Small + GPS.... / Force B Small -Nuke...= Force A Large + GPS... / Force B Small - Nuke...= Force A equal + GPS .../ Force B - Nuke...= Force B equal + GPS... / Force A - Nuke... = Force A Large + GPS... / Force B Small - Nuke... = Force A Large + GPS .../ Force B Large - Nuke... = Force A Large + GPS.../ Force B Small - Nuke... = Whats throwing you off is in the original example you cannot divide by zero, so even a force without GPS (GPS itself would have a value) if there technology, skills, size etc is exatcly equal which can happen online; harder in life, it will simply be force multiplier of 1. many other factors are expressed in the equation becoming even more complex then above, but you need information to have an accurate numbers anyways, meaning good intel.... getting the concept is key, the math is subjective as forecasting sport statistics without good information that is reliable.
Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 401	Posted - 2012.08.13 07:12:00 - [13] - Quote Grit Breather wrote: Very interesting, thank you. I do have a question though. In your example of GPS usage and a theoretical multiplier of 5, when does this reset itself? What I mean is that GPS is very common nowadays. You would have a very hard time finding a unit (or even civilian car) without one. So when does that 5 become 1 again? (turning the old 1 into 1/5) IraK!, Basra, Desert Storm. Just a few Abrams tanks with twice the range of the enemy tanks stopped a Division of enemy tanks. Guess who had GPS in the tanks and who did not?? GPS was the force multiplier. In case I was unclear. We kicked ass. It was War of the Worlds and we were the Martians. The Nation where Sadam ******* was in office.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.08.13 07:27:00 - [14] - Quote Basra is in Iraq, not Iran. Typo I'm sure, may confuse some people though. There were also some other multipliers involved. Better targeting system and nightvision, better main gun with more advanced du sabot ammo vs tungsten Iraqi ammo, air cover, better intel. Giant multiplier by time all factored in. Scouts are going to get bonus to electronic warfare and deployed sensors, so the sci-fi is coming SOON(tm).
Rhadiem Algintal Core Gallente Federation 496	Posted - 2012.08.13 07:29:00 - [15] - Quote Stupid Drunk1 wrote: I love wikipedia because its neutral compared to other sources people use Allow me to side track a bit.. I like Wikipedia as well, I source it all the time for stuff. However, whenever there is a person you have an opinion. Whenever you have a group of people, you have a group of opinions, and generally the prevailing opinion wins as "truth", even though it could be completely false. Things run by a mass of people can be great, or completely bad. For example, democracy is great.. until everyone realizes that you can vote for free stuff, and then it becomes who can buy votes by providing free stuff, and not voting on what is the best for the country as a whole. Anyways, not going into politics here, just agreeing with you with some reservations. Some of their stuff is awesome, and some of it comes across as really biased and more theory than reality. I haven't read your link, just speaking in general. I agree with this OP. Let the metagames begin. Guaranteed your favorite flavor is going to be bad at some point in Dust. Adapt or die.
Rhadiem Algintal Core Gallente Federation 496	Posted - 2012.08.13 07:31:00 - [16] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: Basra is in Iraq, not Iran. Typo I'm sure, may confuse some people though. There were also some other multipliers involved. Better targeting system and nightvision, better main gun with more advanced du sabot ammo vs tungsten Iraqi ammo, air cover, better intel. Giant multiplier by time all factored in. Scouts are going to get bonus to electronic warfare and deployed sensors, so the sci-fi is coming SOON(tm). and I can't wait.


Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page