DUST Search - EVE/DUST market integration discussion

CSM Minutes Page 74 wrote:

The discussion then turned to when the economies of the two games would be linked.
Two step expressed some concern about the DUST prices being very cheap to EVE players.
CCP said they are also concerned about this, and they will have levers to control some of the money flow, including taxing transfers, changing item prices or changing ISK rewards in DUST. The issue of making guns cost as much as a frigate was brought up, and Seleene brought up the relative prices of guns, shoes and his ships.
Two step pointed out that guns were small, and it costs more money to make things little. With the recent expansion of the DUST beta, CCP is now starting to look at the relative burn rate of guns versus a ship in EVE, and can start to balance that out more.
The CSM was concerned about anyone's ability to predict what will happen once DUST is live on TQ, because nobody has ever done anything like this before.
Two step: You have the risk of setting up EVE players as gods in DUST because they have this giant pile of money. Or if I am a serious DUST player, I could start an EVE account and run level 4 missions or whatever because I can make ISK faster than I can make it in DUST.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 18:57:00 - [1] - Quote From the minutes of the CSM meeting discussed here there is still some questions about how best to handle the market integration of DUST with Eve. Obviously CCP have stated several times that they want FULL market integration between the games, but this causes a little bit of a problem. The cheapest ships in Eve cost about 20,000 ISK and are Frigates that usually measure over 100 meters in length. They are large and powerful spaceships. If the market between DUST and Eve were to be balanced, then a prototype suit with all the fittings should cost about as much as a T1 Battlecruiser (30-60 Million ISK). And the rewards for fighting would have to be inflated as well for you to be able to afford them. This seems silly since the more basic items like an assault rifle would cost more than a frigate in Eve. It would especially irksome when a Destroyer (second smallest class of ships in Eve but nearly as big as a present day aircraft carrier) which will be specialized in Orbital bombardment, is able to destroy ten times its value in a single OB. If prices are left as they are, in a realm that makes sense for the scale of items DUST mercs use relative to the items that Eve Capsuleers use, then an Eve player with billions of isk laying around could effectively bankroll an entire DUST corp for months without even noticing. I can go out and mine Ice for 4-5 hours and make 500 million isk and that could support a DUST corp for a pretty long time. The way that it appears, from the CSM minutes, CCP plan to deal with this problem is to allow DUST to be a much smaller volume of ISK market wise and heavily penalize money transfers from Eve to Dust. I am not a fan of this approach because I think that it limits emergent gameplay. However, I am not sure that an easy solutions exists to this issue. If we can all agree that the ISK should flow freely, how would you go about creating a balance between the two games? A few thoughts that I have are: 1. Create large ISK sinks in the form of structures, they should be very expensive for a DUST corp to purchase, they should be fully destroyable, and should have a REASON to be destroyed, allowing more ISK to churn through the DUST grinder. For instance, perhaps a sky fire battery should cost as much as a T2 Battleships (600-800 million ISK)... 2. Boost the cost of vehicles in DUST for the same reason. I think the right level for a T1 tank should be about 8-10 million with the T2 tanks being around 50 million 3. Make us purchase AMMO for our weapons and our vehicles. 4. Keep the prices for suits where they are now or close to it. 5. Have a LIGHT tax on transfers from Eve to Dust (like the 11% NPC corp tax would be fine) but plan to later replace this mechanic with player controlled money exchanges in the future. 6. Warbarges should be very expensive and be fully destroyable by a combined effort of DUST mercs and Eve players (perhaps a shield station on the ground that must be destroyed before Eve players can damage it). The cost should be north of 1 billion for a Warbarge, with various versions of them costing more or less ISK. Variations could include differences in cargo hold size (able to carry more or less tanks etc), differences in armor/shields, differences in speed, etc. Bigger and better war barges could be the "capitals ships" of Dust and cost as much. 7. MCC's and SCC's (surface command center) should be expensive as well. IF all of these were done, the ability of an EVE player to bankroll their own DUST character would still exist and make it easy for someone to throw away expensive vehicles if they want, but would limit the ability of Eve groups bankrolling DUST corps in a game breaking way. What other solutions
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 20:12:00 - [2] - Quote Sojuro Ryo wrote: What the heck were you reading because you seem to be misinformed. CSM Minutes Page 74 wrote: The discussion then turned to when the economies of the two games would be linked. Two step expressed some concern about the DUST prices being very cheap to EVE players. CCP said they are also concerned about this, and they will have levers to control some of the money flow, including taxing transfers, changing item prices or changing ISK rewards in DUST. The issue of making guns cost as much as a frigate was brought up, and Seleene brought up the relative prices of guns, shoes and his ships. Two step pointed out that guns were small, and it costs more money to make things little. With the recent expansion of the DUST beta, CCP is now starting to look at the relative burn rate of guns versus a ship in EVE, and can start to balance that out more. The CSM was concerned about anyone's ability to predict what will happen once DUST is live on TQ, because nobody has ever done anything like this before. Two step: You have the risk of setting up EVE players as gods in DUST because they have this giant pile of money. Or if I am a serious DUST player, I could start an EVE account and run level 4 missions or whatever because I can make ISK faster than I can make it in DUST. Thats where I got it. Go read it.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 20:16:00 - [3] - Quote Drommy Hood wrote: 50 mil for a tank sounds fair........ .........CWAZYYY!!! I feel that perhaps you don't understand the economy of Eve well enough to state an opinion on whether the economy of DUST can or should be integrated with the economy of Eve. So I will ignore it.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 20:30:00 - [4] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: Traynor Youngs wrote: If the market between DUST and Eve were to be balanced, then a prototype suit with all the fittings should cost about as much as a T1 Battlecruiser (30-60 Million ISK). And the rewards for fighting would have to be inflated as well for you to be able to afford them. Is that your opinion that it should cost 30-60 mil or did you read it somewhere? If it's your opinion, wtf are you smoking? If you read it somewhere, where? No where in the minutes does it say it should cost that much. The concern is that it should not cost as much as a ship. My own personal opinion. My reasoning is that a prototype suit is the best suit you can get currently and use on a regular basis. When the SP boost is removed, it should take several months to be able to use Proto gear. In Eve, the BC is attainable in a few months, and represent one of the best small gang PVP ship types you can use on a regular basis. They are the middle ground of cost (at 1/10th the cost of a fitted BS) and have plenty of utility. If the game economies are to be balanced and work together, then commiserate levels of play and skill should have commiserate cost in ISK, else you risk having eve players bank roll DUST corps for what would constitute pennies to the Eve player. This kind of change to the economy would require a more robust set of risks and rewards for DUST players as well. Now, in the minutes, they also state the danger of Eve players being like gods by bankrolling DUST. That is where this dichotomy came from, either you have silly costs for merc equipment (really expensive) or you have to severely restrict the flow of ISK. My method of compromise is to stretch the difference between the basic stuff and the top end stuff by a hefty margin so that the regular suits and weapons still cost a reasonable amount, but that high end stuff would be difficult for an Eve player to unbalance the DUST game. If you think this is not a problem, you are not paying attention, if you do think its a problem, by all means, let us hear how YOU would fix it.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 20:34:00 - [5] - Quote Drommy Hood wrote: Traynor Youngs wrote: Drommy Hood wrote: 50 mil for a tank sounds fair........ .........CWAZYYY!!! I feel that perhaps you don't understand the economy of Eve well enough to state an opinion on whether the economy of DUST can or should be integrated with the economy of Eve. So I will ignore it. Look me up 'drommy' was playing eve when you was in nappies. It talks of burn rates ect. Well I wouldn't expect to loose a full fitted tier 2 BC at the same rate I loose marauders. Its all about perceived worth. If you was expecting to loose your suit 5-10 times in a match, it cannot cost as much as an interceptor, if an interceptor had a life or burn rate of 3-5 mins don't think you'd see many people in anything more than a rookie ship. Increasing isk to 50m per match is out of the question as well, otherwise dust players are earning a lot more than eve players for a lot less risk, which after everything its what its about; risk vs reward. Dust players risk relatively little compared to eve players, because our equipment is disposable. That argument makes a lot more sense, and in the context of burn rates, look at the top end of what a dust fight could possibly cost a corp. If every person had the best gear, and they lost all of their clones, take that clone count, multiply by the cost, and that is what that corp is able to risk in a match in terms of suits, add in tanks and such. Now, compare that with a typical medium range fight in Eve where the players have T2 ships and logistics, but all sub capital. It is not difficult for a 10-15 man gang to be well over 1 billion isk being risked. How expensive do suits and vehicles need to be to be pushing a billion in a match? When DUST becomes part of the warfare landscape of Eve sov warfare, how much will an alliance like NC care if the entirety of the DUST campaign costs them 3-4 billion? Will they give a shite if the DUST bunnies win or lose? Thats a problem. EDIT: I looked you up, your oldest post in the forums I can find is from 2005, so you beat me to Eve by 6 months. I apologize for assuming ignorance, but in all fairness, your post had very little reasoning spelled out in it and given the proclivity of posters in this forum for being totally ignorant, I assumed.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 20:52:00 - [6] - Quote Mr Vito wrote: Or we have weapons/vehicles/modules for Dust as producible items in Eve, which they can then put on the market. Supply and demand will dictate costs. So long as it's taken into consideration that you can make a LOT of rifles out of a cubic meter of tritanium....... I tend to lean toward the free market side as well, however, it may have unintended consequences if a newby miner can mine enough to produce 1,000 rifles... But maybe it would work out. As for the prototype gear, I am clearly off in my cost idea. I still think however that vehicles and structures should be a significant investment and a significant risk relative to what they are now. @Drummy, That is a good point, the burn rate per match may be off, but the FPS gameplay of DUST is much more consistently high in relation to Eve. There are however some items which will see a more Eve like burn rate, like war barges, structures that are district upgrades, etc. I expect a well piloted tank will see a life span similar to a HIC in a capital fight.... i.e. it depends on how well the enemy is paying attention...
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 20:54:00 - [7] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: Mr Vito wrote: Or we have weapons/vehicles/modules for Dust as producible items in Eve, which they can then put on the market. Supply and demand will dictate costs. So long as it's taken into consideration that you can make a LOT of rifles out of a cubic meter of tritanium....... They want EVE players to be able to make stuff for DUST (sorry, don't feel like finding a reference), eventually. Which is one of the reasons why they are hesitant on combining the markets on Day 1. You could have a swarm of players (see what I did there?) manipulate the market so that it would cost 30 M for one DUST grenade. It is true that a few speculators in Eve could make life very hard for DUST players. Though CCP are the only game company I know of that have a team of economists on staff..