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Corban Lahnder
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
158
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Posted - 2012.07.30 14:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Had alot of fun this weekend. The addition of the Isk repair tool varieties meant that me as well as a lot of other players were playing logistics classes and it was a blast. There were a couple of times where I would chase friendly heavies around as I would rep them up and they would mow down people.
A not so fun aspect of this weekend were three specific matches.
In two of these matches the enemy team fielded two gallente Marauders. The third match they fielded several gallente recon drop ships. These vehicles need to be balanced. Currently I really cant seem to find a counter for them.
I also got the forge gun this weekend which was alot of fun to use. It didn't really have much of an impact on the two matches with marauders. My swarm launcher didn't really have much of an impact on the Recon drop ships either. They would either rep through the clouds of missiles I would fling at them or they would fly behind a tower and avoid them all. (Im not talking about a single volley in either of these situations Im talking about full on 5 min or longer duals with these weapons against there vehicles with some close calls but me loosing every one).
This is Beta and I totally get the need to lower cost and SP barriers so people can field these vehicles in the first place. But as it stands right now who ever can field a couple of marauders or a couple of the recon drop ships controls the field in entirety. If you have a marauder and the other team cant field one go ahead and use it I can almost guarantee you wont loose it in the match.
I usually am not the kind of person to be like: "DUH! this killed me nerf it!" Im only posting after seeing this play out this weekend and several other times last weekend. I have tried to find counters to marauders, trying to use a variety of tactics to take them down or get around them, but as far as I can see there unbeatable. From now on when I see marauders Im just going to run because theres no way to stop them unless of course your team can field marauders as well.
Also the problem is worse because if the enemy team can control the center of the field even if your team calls in a marauder if they spot it ahead of time they can lay into it with theirs before it gets dropped off at your delivery point.
When dust gets released its going to be all public matches to begin with and if the public matches are anything like what were playing right now, theres going to be alot of people who dont get the concept of Tech II hulls screaming that there op and need to get nerfed.
Marauders and dropships do need to be powerful I get that. But there needs to be readily available counters to them. In a public match if Im the only one fielding a heavy with a forge gun, or if the only tanks I can deliver to the field are militia vehicles, you start to see the problem. My team is going to loose the match, because theres no way my teams militia vehicles will be able to contend with marauders on the field, Im done trying to duel marauders with a heavy its suicide. Even if my team listens to my directions and they start fielding more people with swarm launchers the vehicles will either find cover or the current swarm launcher bugs will take care of the rest.
Swarm launchers are still buggy, so maybe when there fixed this will be less of an issue.
4 Ideas for balancing:
1. Create more/buff existing AV weaponry(against vehicles not against infantry) Add AV land mines something like that.
2. Marauders have big bonuses in some areas but draw backs in others for instance: Huge tank/Less dps/Very slow
3. Increase ISK and or SP barrier for attaining them
4. Limit vehicle types in public matches. Tech I/Militia Only(Faction warfare/Null sec is the deep end bring what ever)
I dont think a single heavy should be able to solo a marauder thats ridiculous. But they should be able to cause some trouble for one. If I pick up a squad of infantry with a Militia drop ship drop them off at a defense relay and then a marauder shows up and wipes out my squad regardless of what weaponry and tactics there using...I hope at this point you can see the problem here. Marauders need to be balanced because they can shut down a match. Shut it down. Where even if the whole team uses nothing but AV fits they still cant take them out. Honestly thats boring. Just watching as your team gets farmed for kills by the team that has the marauders, and if it forces you into a play style that you didn't want to do in the first place whats the point in having a huge degree of customization? If all I have to do is field marauders and every one else has to adjust there play style completely one way to counter it, there isnt much point in being able to have a great degree of customization as people will only adopt one play style, like tower sniping or something like that. It just kills variety in the game. Its boring to play against it. I only want a balancing of these vehicles to encourage a variety of play styles which is something the Dust team has prided themselves on saying Dust brings to the table as an MMOFPS. Also, the statement "Get marauders yourself," is not the counter to this problem. If thats your response to this post ultimately it turns this game from Dust to World of Marauders. Your encouraging only one play style and Dust needs to be able to support many effectively.
Also it seems like the mass driver needs some tweaking as well its doing that projectile bug where you can only see its projectile and explosion at extreme long range. I just stopped using it all together because of how buggy it was.
TLDR: Currently Marauders/Recon Drop ships encourage only one style of play. Dust needs to be able to support many styles of play. Not enough effective counters for Marauders Recon Ships exist right now. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.30 14:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
AV grenades are being altered significantly in the next build, but other AV weapons are already effective when used well. Also, vehicles are getting a major price increase in the next build, along with a lot of other adjustments to the pricing system.
There's already a limit to vehicles, but it's fairly generous, and if you bring lots of vehicles, it's easy for the other team to pull out AV fittings. Even un-upgraded Militia Swarm Launchers can do some damage when you throw enough of them into battle at once. |
Asno Masamang
Odd Shadows Inc
122
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Posted - 2012.07.30 15:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Even un-upgraded Militia Swarm Launchers can do some damage when you throw enough of them into battle at once.
I am not so sure about that any longer. I was front gun for a pure passive shield HAV who was being shield repped by a friendly DS. The DS driver was good, he kep the HAV between him and the 4 or 5 SL and forge gun users. The lowest the HAV ever dropped was 45% shield. As I stated in another thread, I suspect that the HAV driver had more shield extenders than resist boosters. If I am correct about this, then he was taking roughly 12% - 18% more damage per hit than he should have. If I am correct aout his fit, you could litterally taken another 2 - 3 militia SL and low level forge guns.
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Yosef Autaal
SONS of LEGION
RISE of LEGION
19
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Posted - 2012.07.30 15:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
You said you had a duel with the recon drop ships so 1v1 no wonder you lost that's the idea IMO, one person shouldn't have the power to destroy something like those and marauders on there own defeats the point of them being expensive and strong if one person can kill them with ease at the most it should be a hard long slug fest where the dropsuit looses to vehicle 4/5 times.
yes it can suck if the other side has two or three of them and you seem to be the only one fighting them if that is the case you hope some one does take notice and helps you out or you shout at team mates in comms to get in av dropsuits and help out or 3rd option your team pulls out a few of there own versions of these vehicles and starts fighting back
tho i get this can be hard if the enemy has pushed you back to start location and is blasting the crap out of the area
(ccp need to move or add more cover to those start locations i don't think it strategically smart to have a start location so easily harrassed maybe the path from start location to the main fight but not the staging location itself.).
these vehicles are supposed to be match winners and they doing the job just fine.
just to mention I cant pilot these vehicles im not even going to try and i do have an AV dropsuit when circumstances like yours show up and i try my best to team up with other AV's but what happens to you happens to me to so i understand the issue |
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2012.07.30 16:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
You said that they used a lot of Gallente vehicles...
Gallentean vehicles, with the way the armor repairer works, are very good at tanking high-burst damage for a short period of time. If these two Surya pilots were rapetraining the entire round, how were they playing? Did they flee often, sit still & slug it out... What were they doing? |
Khun-Al
135
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Posted - 2012.07.30 17:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Make a good AV vehicle. blasters are very effective against them and if you fitted the whole vehicle with them you are able to kill them easily. of course you have to use at least a standard hav and advanced blasters and everyone has to fire his blaster on the vehicle. a madrugar with a advanced large blaster, two proto small blasters, a good armor and a heavy armor repper can take out a surya alone if you wait for the perfect moment. that is when you cannot see a yellow grid anymore. then fire everything at him. |
Corban Lahnder
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
158
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Posted - 2012.07.30 18:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yosef Autaal wrote:yes it can suck if the other side has two or three of them and you seem to be the only one fighting them if that is the case you hope some one does take notice and helps you out or you shout at team mates in comms to get in av dropsuits and help out or 3rd option your team pulls out a few of there own versions of these vehicles and starts fighting back
tho i get this can be hard if the enemy has pushed you back to start location and is blasting the crap out of the area
(ccp need to move or add more cover to those start locations i don't think it strategically smart to have a start location so easily harrassed maybe the path from start location to the main fight but not the staging location itself.).
these vehicles are supposed to be match winners and they doing the job just fine.
Yosef the only problem is what options do you have if your team doesn't have any good vehicles to kill marauders? What if no one on your team can pilot more then a militia type vehicle. You've just lost the match. That means you have two options. Leave the match because its going to F your KD ratio. Or hide some where and snipe. I dont want to snipe, because im a terrible sniper, and will be the first to admit I've never been good at sniping in fps. I feel in there current state Marauders force people who dont already have them to either quit the match or force them into a play style they may not be good at all. Again it limits play style and kills the need for any sort of variety in game.
Which ties in to Khun-AI's point. If the only way to counter vehicles is with vehicles, no one needs to train anything but vehicle skills.
Amazing Pig: Basically any time forge gunners came out the Suryas would either take cover or they would one shot the heavies with small missiles or rail guns. Either way you faced a Surya with full hit points or you were dead because they could hit you.
In BF 3 and in Planetside 2 newer players can make use of AV weapons precisely to kill vehicles. Right now in dust this is not the case. To make an eve analogy: A noob in a tier 3 frigate might not be able to kill a cruiser or Hac, but 6 noobs in tier 3 frigates could. Right now in Dust The hac or Cruiser wins every engagement regardless of the conditions.
And if there are better ways to kill Marauders with infantry and im not seeing it please correct me. |
Bob Deorum
15
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Posted - 2012.07.31 15:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
i only read the OP but I will say that I disagree there is a counter for everything. I drive a Marauder, both of them in fact, and I can say that I have died alot to AV infantry, and I would go as far as to say they are underpowered.
My one forge gun fit can make a tank retreat and run for reps, I alone can pen down an enemy Marauder the whole battle, and I do not even have proto forge gun. If there are two of us even remotely coordinated we can kill any Marauder on the field with ease, especially if we ambush it at a point.
Once people start teaming up Marauders and dropships will die very very fast. and the best counter for a dropship is a forge gun, because they are outrun missiles atm, but two hits from a forge gun will kill most if not all dropships. |
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