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Eskel Bondfree
27
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Posted - 2012.07.29 13:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
I figured a thread where all feedback and proposals on skill point distribution can be found in one place would be a good idea, so I made one. I've digged through the feedback forum and found many good suggestions to improve on the way skill points are awarded for your actions in battle. I will list them here again together with my own thoughts and ideas. Hopefully, this way we can keep the discussion on the topic alive and in one place and give CCP the opportunity to get concentrated feedback.
First my feedback on the existing system of point distribution:
- hacking objective is worth more points than a kill, this is a very good decision because it encourages to take objectives rather than just shoot people else where
- many support actions are awarded with points, which is excellent and lets logi players earn just as many SP as all the killing machines at the front line
- vehicle pilots get assists for each kill of their gunners, also very good and encouraging the use of vehicles where the pilot can not control a weapon of his own
All in all I already like the existing system very much, but there are some shortcomings that need to be adressed and some suggestions for improvement that are worth to be considered: see my next post due to character limit of single posts (sorry for the wall of text, but I like to explain myself when suggsting something). |
Eskel Bondfree
27
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Posted - 2012.07.29 13:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
- Retaking objectives should be rewarded (i.e. canceling enemy hacks). This was proposed many times already, and I've seen only two arguments against it:
1. It can be exploited to farm SP: true, but other mechanics can be as well, like killing and reviving another player repeatedly. Imo it's not a valid reason to not reward an importan defense action.
2. Defenders should not be rewarded for failing to defend objectives. Also true, but consider that the player who retakes an objective is not necessarily the one who failed to defend it. Points are given for individual actions, so an individual player that did everything right should not be penalized for the actions of another player. Winning or losing a match is what rewards or penalizes the team as a whole.
- Assists for taking objectives: as it is now, the player who gets to the hacking console first gets all or at least most of the points. Everyone near the objective who is covering his a** gets zero points. This is bad because it encourages people to start a race for the hacking console, instead of clearing the area of enemies first and covering each other. Please make it so everyone near an objective gets assist points if someone else is hacking it.
- Kill assists: people complain about others stealing their kills. Imo the perfect solution has already been brought up: distribute assist points depending on the amount of damage that was dealt. E.g. give assist +40 if someone dealt 80% of the damage before another player finished of the target. But always award the actual kill to the player who fired the final shot, because he is the one finishing the kill that otherwise might never have happened. The same should be true for vehicle kills.
- Driver assists: pilots already get assists from their gunners, but this is not enough for players acting in a pure transport role (and this role should become much more important on large maps in the future). Transport pilots should get assists for each passenger they deliver savely to any location, given that the passenger was staying inside the vehicle for a minimum amount of time (or maybe travelled a minimum distance). Furthermore, I would like to see assist points for every kill that a passenger scored immediately after he left the transport (possibly only for passengers that did not man a gun on the vehicle).
- Bonus points for defenders: in my experience, you rarely need to worry in an FPS about people not trying to kill the enemy. However, most of the time no one is willing to stay behind at the captured objectives to defend them (because there are more kills to be scored at the front line). Imo an incentive to defend is needed, like: bonus points for every kill that is scored near a friendly objective. Or: accumulation of bonus points over time while a player is staying near a friendly objective (example: give +1 point every 2 seconds, i.e. +30 after one minute, +150 after five minutes. This may seem much at first, but consider: a player deliberately decides to stay at the objective and watch over it, knowing the enemy might never show up. Others mindlessly rush to the frontline in order to baserape the enemy, scoring 2 kills per minute and racking up 500 points in the same amount of time). There should probably be a delay before those points start to be awarded.
- Give points even if a hack failed: my reasoning behind this is the effort and risk that someone takes in order to start a hack. Even if it fails, it forces the enemy to fall back and cancel the hack, giving your own team the opportunity to push forward. Thus even a failed hack can contribute to your team winning. What I propose: give +25 for every hack that has been started, then add another +75 once the hack succeeded.
- Discourage deliberate spawn camping: an idea I like very much: reward the killing of an enemy that just spawned with close to zero points. Reasoning behind it: deliberate spawn camping that is only done in order to rack up points (e.g. on drop uplinks) is less appealing. Also: killing a player that appears in a location you already know beforehand and who has no awareness of his surroundings does not require much skill, so why award it with a lot of skill points? You will still get the kill count, though. Keep in mind that spawned players will stay as vulnerable as before, and you can still get the full points if you wait a few seconds before pulling the trigger (but those seconds will give your opponent a fighting chance to react). Camping spawn points at an objective that is being taken over by your team will still work, it just generates less points.
- Points for destroying enemy equipment: just a minor issue, but would make sense.
- Points for heals from a nanohive: also a minor issue, maybe even a bug, but points should be given for healing team mates with your nanohive, just like you get points for refilling ammo.
I think that the award system of an FPS is a very important part because it will influence player behaviour a lot. Balancing rewards right is crucial if we want players to make use of all equipment and assets in the game instead of just hunting for the highest number of kills. Please share your opinion on my thoughts and add your own suggestions to the list. As said before, I do not claim all these suggestions as my own, I just wanted to concentrate what has already been said in one place, so I and others can add their own ideas. |
JysN Quasai
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.07.29 14:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
I pretty much agree with every suggestion but 'Discourage deliberate spawn camping' one. I Also hate spawn Camping in Dust but the sulution isn't given less points but Different Spawning spots. As it is right now you spawn everytime at the exact same spot. As i know it's not supposted to be that but they seem to have issues fixing that.
But i everything else i totaly agree. |
Khun-Al
135
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Posted - 2012.07.29 14:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Crushed and Died should not be count as a kill. They should still die but noone gets SP. |
Eskel Bondfree
27
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Posted - 2012.07.29 14:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
JysN Quasai wrote:I pretty much agree with every suggestion but 'Discourage deliberate spawn camping' one. I Also hate spawn Camping in Dust but the sulution isn't given less points but Different Spawning spots. As it is right now you spawn everytime at the exact same spot. As i know it's not supposted to be that but they seem to have issues fixing that.
But i everything else i totaly agree.
The suggestion was not meant to be a final solution to spawn camping per se, just a way to tone down the amount of spawn camping that is done, in particular those instances where people camp e.g. a drop uplink only for the easy SP instead of just destroying the uplink. |
Eskel Bondfree
27
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Posted - 2012.07.29 18:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Something I forgot when starting the topic:
- Give vehicle owners bonus points if someone else is using their vehicle: As it is right now, everyone can just get off with the vehicle you called in for your own. If this is still the case on release, vehicle owners should get assist points for every action taken with their vehicle as long as they are not a driver or passenger in it. Even if you give your vehicle to a team mate intentionally, you should still be rewareded for putting it at risk and for the time and money you invested to be able to call in the vehicle.
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J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
648
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Posted - 2012.07.29 21:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dropship pilots: A few ways to get points (ideas)
1. Make having team mates spawn in your CRU give you points.
2. As stated above: transporting a player should give you points. Perhaps the time traveled after 5 seconds initially, would be the amount of points given.
3. Being in a certain sphere of airspace around an objective gives you extra points for each action taken. "IE MAGs FRAGO system. Includes dropship pilots hovering within a larger area around the objective than on the ground. |
Logisticus Testing
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2012.07.30 20:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Have to agree that most of these points are very good. I know as someone who usually plays logistics/medic/engineer, having a chance to get points for other things is definitely on my list of things that needs to be revamped. In quick response to a point or two made:
Not sure how much I like the idea of points for vehicle owners who loan out their vehicles. If someone calls in 4 tanks, he could very quickly rack up a ton of points without having to do anything else. Yeah, he's risking his ISK, but not much else. IGÇÖm of mixed feelings about this one.
like that drivers get points for kill assists in their vehicle, and this isn't a disagreement, but a defect in the system IGÇÖd love to see taken out, that people riding in a dropship that aren't gunning still get points for vehicle assists, even though they were just sitting there. I wonder some times if that's why people hang out in dropships instead of dropping on objectives like they should. Also would love to see added the ability to kick someone out of your vehicle if they're just sitting on their hands. Ejection seat, anyone? Also, would love to be able to shoot out the door, at least with light weapons. Conversely, if you can shoot out the door, then people should be able to shoot in, like with LAVs. It's an open air vehicle, seems reasonable to me. Might be hard to implement, though.
I don't believe that kills by running people over should get no points, but they should be greatly reduced, I think. not sure how SP and ISK rewards are figured at the end of a match, but IGÇÖve seen things that lead me to believe it's K/D ratio related, and if they get a kill for it, they'll still get plenty of SP anyway. granted, doesn't take much skill, but it does take some
Absolutely agree with guard assist points while someone hacks, points for hack cancels, etc.
Not sure why someone should get extra points for a nanohive that heals armor. There aren't many that do it, and they don't cost any more than ones that don't, plus they have a lower resupply rate, so it's balanced out. now if they gave a tiny amount of points after refilling ammo, but still repping armor, then maybe. But then why pick any other nanohive, unless the ammo resupply rate had a much bigger disparity. That, or make only proto nanohives rep armor; I believe at the moment that starts with advanced nanohives.
I totally believe that teammates spawning in a mobile drop uplink should give spawning points. Not so sure about the transport points. WhatGÇÖs to keep a dropship pilot from filling his dropship and then just cruising around all match generating points? Granted, it would make it harder to win with that many fighters taken out of the fight, but I can see it being abused by a Corp to quickly make their pilots elite pilots. Maybe cap out the points at a certain point, depending on map size. 30 seconds for ambush maps, 2 minutes or more for larger skirmish maps, maybe, depending on how long it would take to transport from one side of the map to the other.
Now a point or two of my own. IGÇÖm not sure that logistics guys can really get as many points as a frontline soldier, at least not as it presently stands. you don't get many points for armor repair (+15 for every 5 sec or so repping inf, +25, I think for vehicles or installations), even on the rare chances you get to do it, and as it's been said ad nauseum, nanoinjectors are crap until either there's a system for medics to know who's down, or there's incentive to not immediately suicide (like your dropsuit fit costing a mil ISK apiece). I rarely get a chance to repair anything but infantry, because a tank or dropship just rolls or flies off using their armor repair mods to take care of the problem. Repping an installation is a joke. Either they're full armor, or they're dust usually. And repping infantry is fairly rare because I don't usually see anything but a heavy come through a fight with little armor damage. Generally they're either in good health or dead  . Anyone not in a heavy suit can drop a nanohive or drop-uplink, so there doesn't really seem to be a good niche for someone who isn't a first rate frontline fighter or vehicle pilot. Of course, not sure there should be, not sure CCP ever planned for there to be. But in character creation, there are 3 job styles (scout, frontline soldier, AV), which seem to be geared towards 3 of the 4 styles of dropsuits, which makes me think there should be a role for them. Of course, there are so many things marked SOON(TM), that maybe it's one of the things to come in the next build, but as it stands right now....
Long and rambling, IGÇÖm afraid, but I think IGÇÖve covered all my points, and in a relatively coherent manner. Look for ward to any feedback. And yes, I know it's a beta, with things yet to come. IGÇÖm just pointing out things that I hope get addressed.
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Eskel Bondfree
27
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Posted - 2012.07.31 18:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
J'Jor Da'Wg wrote:Dropship pilots: A few ways to get points (ideas)
3. Being in a certain sphere of airspace around an objective gives you extra points for each action taken. "IE MAGs FRAGO system. Includes dropship pilots hovering within a larger area around the objective than on the ground.
I like this idea, but care must be taken so it doesn't get too easy to earn SP this way.
Logisticus Testing wrote:
Not sure how much I like the idea of points for vehicle owners who loan out their vehicles. If someone calls in 4 tanks, he could very quickly rack up a ton of points without having to do anything else.
True, you have a point there.Of course SP could always be limited to one vehicle at a time, or simply be lowered, but maybe a solution that prevents team mates from stealing you vehicles altogether would be better. Thinking of it, if you loan your vehicle to a trusted player, you can always request a refund of your destroyed assets, so bonus points are not really necessary in that case either.
Quote:
a defect in the system IGÇÖd love to see taken out, that people riding in a dropship that aren't gunning still get points for vehicle assists, even though they were just sitting there
Agreed, this doesn't make sense at all. I've noticed this odd behavior in Battlefield, too.
Quote:
Not so sure about the transport points. WhatGÇÖs to keep a dropship pilot from filling his dropship and then just cruising around all match generating points?
I think the main reason this isn't going to happen is that you won't easily find a bunch of players that are willing to sit in your dropship for hours, not doing anything and not gaining points either. To clarify: points should only be awarded once a passenger actually left the vehicle, meaning your passengers would have to get in and out repeatedly to exploit this. The fesability of this idea also depends on the scale of the maps, something we have yet to see.
Quote:
Not sure why someone should get extra points for a nanohive that heals armor.
Well, I think the fact you're healing someone should be reason enough to award points for the action. The question if hives should be able to heal and resupply at the same time is a different matter, though. See here for some discussion on this.
I aggree it can be hard sometimes to rack up SP as a logi. This is also because of missing gameplay elements to support logi actions (reviving) or players in general not being aware when they are healed. People are also more K/D focused at the current stage of the beta, not to mention the missing grouping and corp features. We'll have to see how things play out in the future, logis might become a more viable choice withouth having to increase their SP rewards that much. |
Traynor Youngs
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
287
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Posted - 2012.07.31 19:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
I disagree with the spawn camping thing.
Everything else I agree with, but let me explain.
In warfare, it is a legitimate and effective strategy to focus your fire on a choke point (a location where the enemy is funneled into one place). A spawn point is by definition a choke point. If your team has awareness of these choke points and decides to focus on them so that you spread out the enemy and reduce his ability to maneuver, that is a legitimate tactic.
The solution to spawn camping is more an issue of the SIZE of the choke point. As it stands now, it is very very small (like a point location) and if this were increased to say 100m instead then putting several forces into that area to restrict the ability of the enemy to break out looks more like an area denial instead of everyone shooting a point on the ground.
Deployed drop uplinks should be like 5 meters or something else small.
Additionally, other options can greatly change the efficacy of spawn camping as a tactic against a determined and coordinated team. Some of these include the ability to spawn as soon as you click the button after the countdown, this way a whole team could spawn at once when commanded, increase the cover available in spawn areas, allow one spawn on the map (the main spawn point) to have a deployed shield that lasts for some period of time, enough to perform a breakout. There are others, but we are getting off topic. |
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Eskel Bondfree
27
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Posted - 2012.08.01 16:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Traynor Youngs wrote:
In warfare, it is a legitimate and effective strategy to focus your fire on a choke point (a location where the enemy is funneled into one place). A spawn point is by definition a choke point. If your team has awareness of these choke points and decides to focus on them so that you spread out the enemy and reduce his ability to maneuver, that is a legitimate tactic.
You're right, spawn camping can be a legit tactic. Note that my proposal doesn't prevent anyone from spawn camping, it only reduces the SP rewards for it. Because following through with a tactic is something different than spawn camping just to get easy SP while ignoring the true tactical needs of the own team. |
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