DUST Search - [Feedback] Forge Guns are OP

Buzzwords wrote:

Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:

Eh, my marauder does take forge gunners better then other marauders.

When another marauder shoots me, I am getting hit for over 2000 damage, but my tank due to being built properly will take much more then three or four of your shots. Seriously.

Also my railgun has a 5 meter splash with 775 damage on my marauder, counting damage bonuses. Very hard for you to dodge that. Did I mention the unlimited ammunition?

My standard Sagaris fit:

Low slots: One CPU upgrade two PH upgrades (forget which level).

Weapon Slots: The best Railgun in the game (base 550 splash and 1350 damage direct, over 2000 counting 50% Marauder bonus). Two XT-1 Missile Turrets.

High slots (here is where it really counts):

Best shield booster in the game

Best Shield Extender in the game

Two 25% damage resists

One 14% DCU.

Now look at what this means:
My base armor is 1000, 1250 counting my mechanics V, counting the 14% resist means an EHP of 1453.
My base shield is 5305, 6631 counting my Shield Management V, counting the 60.75% resist (counting stacking penalties) means an EHP of 16894
My Booster can do five pulses of 328 each, which is a total of 1640, so using my resists this demands you deal an additional 4178 to overcome it.

That is a total of 22525 damage for you to kill me in a stand-up slug-fest.

Now, remind me how much your forge gun does?

This is a Real Sagaris fit. Proper fits like this si what you should be gauging yourself against, not the fits that people can barely cobble together due to being poor or low-skills or just plain bad with fittings.

And yes, I rarely die.

TL;DR: OP is indeed, doing it wrong...


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General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 04:59:00 - [1] - Quote The Forge gun does almost equal or greater damage than a large railgun on an HAV. Standard Forge Gun = 1200 Standard Large Railgun = 900 Advanced Forge Gun = 1320 Advanced Large Railgun = 1350 Prototype Forge Gun = 1440 Prototype Large Railgun = 1170 (Not sure why this one does less damage) The point is that the proto forge gun can OWN a Sagaris in 3-4 shots. Even when the HAV is double tanked. I can take on other tanks and hold up better than I can against a forge gun. It's bad enough that the infantry is so hard to hit at range and can hide, but to have this weapon be so powerful is absurd. It's a HANDHELD weapon, there is no reason whatsoever that it should be equal/more powerful than a FULLSIZE railgun on a tank. Now before the trolls start in, I'm not saying that the forge gun should be ineffective against a tank. By all means keep it an AV weapon capable destroying vehicles, but having it do more damage than the HAV is ridiculous. A Marauder should be able to take more shots from a forge gun than it can from another marauder. Suggestion, decrease the direct damage that it does( to a reasonable amount below the point of a comparable full size railgun), but increase the blast radius to make it slightly better against infantry, and add a zoom/ADS ability to increase accuracy. Either that or give the large railgun a slightly increased blast radius or ZOOM to be able to at least attempt to counter, and make the damage indicator show which direction the shot came from, because right now you take at least 2-3 hits before you even know what's going on.
General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 05:29:00 - [2] - Quote According to the description of the skills, increasing the railgun skills only unlocks the next railgun. And I'm sure if you unlock the proto forge gun, you will see that even the best fitting on a sagaris can't hold up at all. About 4 shots is all it takes with the best shield extender and the best shield booster running at the same time. The only option is to try to hide or run if you can react in time and have an escape route. Trying to stand and fight against a forge gun is suicide, this shouldn't be the case when you consider it's an HAV vs Infantry. It's hard to hit someone direct with a rail gun so you rely on splash damage, proto heavies are at an advantage with even minimal cover. I'll give some of these guys credit though, I had one jump on top of my tank with a forge gun, I had to get out and shoot him to get him to jump off. If I didn't have a gunner at the time, he still would have finished me off. I don't mind being taken out by someone with skill, but camping on top of a tower taking cheap shots at large targets with an OP weapon is a different story. That's why I'm upset that they nerfed the remote explosives, at least when those get you, you know you were bested by someone with balls. Proto swarms are almost worse since you can't avoid them once they are locked on. The point is that a Marauder should never be an easy target, regardless of how good your gear is. It should take no less than multiple people attacking it or another marauder, or at least another HAV. Even the standard tanks should be more of a concern to an HAV driver than a Heavy which isn't the case. This makes no sense to me. And like I said, I don't think the forge gun should be rendered useless, it should still be effective against an HAV, just not that effective. If you think I'm doing it wrong, unlock a marauder and see for yourself what it takes to keep them alive.
General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 06:58:00 - [3] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Well, perhaps the marauder needs an armor buff, rather than forge guns needing a nerf, considering that the Sagaris shrugs off forgegun hits like they're just a pellet gun. What is the supposed "role" of a marauder on the battlefield? anti-vehicle or anti-infantry? The Sagaris can shrug off a basic forge gun hit (one or two), but the advanced and protos do significant damage. Garrett Blacknova wrote: Lets think about this... The heaviest mounting you can attach a Forge Gun to will die to a near miss from a Railgun. A Marauder can take several hits from the Forge Gun. I don't think it's OP. This is simply not true. The higher end heavy suits can take several shots of splash damage from a railgun. A direct hit is OHK on any infantry, but splash damage requires multiple shots, usually. Buzzwords wrote: marauders have a built in 50% damage bonus. so you're 1,350 advanced railgun actually deals 2025 base damage on a sagaris or surya. then all the other reasons you're wrong. like charge time and the ability to be aimed and infinite ammo and more shots before overheat than shots before reload. You are partially right, the 1.5x damage on the marauder makes the railgun deal more damage(2025 is a direct hit, it's hard to hit moving infantry directly), however, "aimed" doesn't do anything in a tank, there is no zoom, it's just a switch to first person with 1x magnification. Single shot charge time on a tank is .8 seconds, forge guns are 3.5 sec and 2.5 sec respectively, less once the skill has been trained up, so the HAV wins there. Multiple shots are hard to aim in an HAV due to recoil, so controlled fire(at range) is about the same speed as a forge gun, with the advantage going to assault forge guns(but not by much). Keep in mind, the forge gun has a larger target to shoot at, HAVs can be seen from a longer distance, and have a difficult time finding cover. Unlimited ammo is definitely something I didn't take into consideration, but usually when they are camping on a tower they have nanohives. Not to mention it's almost impossible to hit an elevated target in an HAV. I'm wondering how many of you guys are heavies who don't want your forge guns nerfed. I understand, I like getting one hit kills too. I'm not suggesting they be dropped to the level of Swarm launchers or anything, just enough to where a proto forge gun can't solo a maurader without a reload or two. It's easier for a proto heavy to take out a marauder than the opposite, UNLESS you score a direct hit on the heavy with a railgun. I can't speak as to the effectiveness of the large missile launchers, I don't use them. For the record, I fully expect to be annihilated if I am attacked by multiple AV infantry, but soloing a marauder shouldn't be easy when you consider a well equipped one costs over 500,000 ISK. Not to mention the MILLIONS of SP to unlock not only the HAV, but the modules as well.
General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 07:10:00 - [4] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Eh, my marauder does take forge gunners better then other marauders. When another marauder shoots me, I am getting hit for over 2000 damage, but my tank due to being built properly will take much more then three or four of your shots. Seriously. Also my railgun has a 5 meter splash with 775 damage on my marauder, counting damage bonuses. Very hard for you to dodge that. Did I mention the unlimited ammunition? My standard Sagaris fit: Low slots: One CPU upgrade two PH upgrades (forget which level). Weapon Slots: The best Railgun in the game (base 550 splash and 1350 damage direct, over 2000 counting 50% Marauder bonus). Two XT-1 Missile Turrets. High slots (here is where it really counts): Best shield booster in the game Best Shield Extender in the game Two 25% damage resists One 14% DCU. Now look at what this means: My base armor is 1000, 1250 counting my mechanics V, counting the 14% resist means an EHP of 1453. My base shield is 5305, 6631 counting my Shield Management V, counting the 60.75% resist (counting stacking penalties) means an EHP of 16894 My Booster can do five pulses of 328 each, which is a total of 1640, so using my resists this demands you deal an additional 4178 to overcome it. That is a total of 22525 damage for you to kill me in a stand-up slug-fest. Now, remind me how much your forge gun does? This is a Real Sagaris fit. Proper fits like this si what you should be gauging yourself against, not the fits that people can barely cobble together due to being poor or low-skills or just plain bad with fittings. And yes, I rarely die. I am curious as to where you find the info about stacking penalties.
General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 07:19:00 - [5] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Eh, my marauder does take forge gunners better then other marauders. When another marauder shoots me, I am getting hit for over 2000 damage, but my tank due to being built properly will take much more then three or four of your shots. Seriously. Also my railgun has a 5 meter splash with 775 damage on my marauder, counting damage bonuses. Very hard for you to dodge that. Did I mention the unlimited ammunition? My standard Sagaris fit: Low slots: One CPU upgrade two PH upgrades (forget which level). Weapon Slots: The best Railgun in the game (base 550 splash and 1350 damage direct, over 2000 counting 50% Marauder bonus). Two XT-1 Missile Turrets. High slots (here is where it really counts): Best shield booster in the game Best Shield Extender in the game Two 25% damage resists One 14% DCU. Now look at what this means: My base armor is 1000, 1250 counting my mechanics V, counting the 14% resist means an EHP of 1453. My base shield is 5305, 6631 counting my Shield Management V, counting the 60.75% resist (counting stacking penalties) means an EHP of 16894 My Booster can do five pulses of 328 each, which is a total of 1640, so using my resists this demands you deal an additional 4178 to overcome it. That is a total of 22525 damage for you to kill me in a stand-up slug-fest. Now, remind me how much your forge gun does? This is a Real Sagaris fit. Proper fits like this si what you should be gauging yourself against, not the fits that people can barely cobble together due to being poor or low-skills or just plain bad with fittings. And yes, I rarely die. TL;DR: OP is indeed, doing it wrong... This is basically the same fitting I use, with an extra shield amplifier and a slightly better DCU. The only other difference is the proto small turrets. I don't have shield management maxed though, that would help.
General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 07:33:00 - [6] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: ok now you're just embarrasing yourself, you CAN zoom with railguns. once you click the analog stick to line your camera up with the barrel, hold L1... and even if you couldn't, the ability to aim is still noteworthy since the forge gun cannot be shouldered at all. it's all hipfire all the time. not to mention zaroul pretty much just proved with math what we were all suspecting anyway, a GOOD marauder DOESN'T die in 3, 4, or even 5 and 6 hits from a forge gun... just because it's a marauder hull doesn't mean you get to automatically win. if you drive a sucky marauder, you will get sucky results. as for us being heavies trying to protect our "op" weapon, i am insulted by the very suggestion. i run assault. i find the heavy suit WORTHLESS. they NERFED the forge gun AND the hmg because of people like you, screaming your heads off because the game is imbalanced in your IMAGINATION! seriously... you don't know you can zoom a railgun, but you're going to lecture us on game balance and accuse us of bias... GOOD DAY SIR! ******* seriously? L1? smacks head It takes more than that to embarrass myself, trust me. I'm a pro at sticking my foot in my mouth, and I can admit when I am wrong. I use pretty much the same fitting he does, but obviously I need to rethink and fine tune my loadouts and focus on leveling up some of my skills.
General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 07:34:00 - [7] - Quote lDocHollidayl wrote: I run proto forge when fighting vehicles. Maybe 10% of the tanks I fight (excluding miltia) die within 4 shots. This is with 10% damage multiplier. Most the time I can not get 4 shots off without them turning corners or going out of range. I probably have 30 hrs of playtime with this setup. So far this has been the only way I can avoid getting owned by them.
General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 07:36:00 - [8] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: I'm curious on what module you took out for the extra shield amplifier. I WAS running a shield recharger thinking the stacking penalty was greater than that. Obviously that was a bad move.
General Funguy Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.07.26 07:37:00 - [9] - Quote General Funguy wrote: Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: I'm curious on what module you took out for the extra shield amplifier. I WAS running a shield recharger thinking the stacking penalty was greater than that. Obviously that was a bad move. To clarify, I WAS only running one amplifier, and a smaller DCU.