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Abron Garr
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 04:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
Specifically healing. This will be a significant read and I apologize for being long-winded. These are just a few of the things I've been thinking of since the E3 Beta went live. I'm interested in what other players, and specifically other Logi players think. Healing is my favorite role in MMOs and the role I plan to play in Dust, but right now healing feels more of a handicap to my squad rather than an advantage.
TL;DR We need grouping in order to fully test Logistics as well as a few quality of life changes. Some of these proposals may have been mentioned before and if so, I apologize beforehand.
Long-winded version
I may be jumping the gun before the August build, but I am a bit concerned over how Logistics is currently situated. I know we're getting a mandatory timer before suicide and I know we're getting some indicators on our HUD to make reviving easier. Even with those changes however, I feel that may just be a temporary band-aid. There needs to be a reason to have a Logi in your group. Even if we're not mandatory, we should at least be more useful than we currently are. What follows are some of my thoughts concerning Logistics. I'd appreciate any feedback.
The Suit
We need a Healing suit.
I currently run with Advanced Logistics gear but I'm also capable of fitting Advanced and Prototype Assault gear. Aside from the fact that Logistics has fewer base HP than an Assault, is slower and lacks a second weapon slot, the suit itself offers no bonus to healing, only more slots and CPU/PG for equipment. I understand that if Logistics offered the same amount of tank and speed that Assault currently gives, then there would be no reason to wear Assault. The last thing we need is everyone running around in Logi suits just for the extra utility slots.
One way I think this could be avoided is if the Logistics category was split in half the way LAV and Dropships are currently (split between Regular and Logistics versions and split again between armor or shield tank) . The current Logi suit would remain as the Swiss Army knife approach that allows you to fit for demolitions, ammo replenishment, drop-link jockey or all at the same time. The new category of Logi suits would be made specifically for healing. This suit should be given only slightly more CPU and PG (less than Logi currently has) to match it closer to what assault currently provides for PG/CPU. In return, healing logistics suits should provide a bonus (base bonus in the suit itself) in the form of reduced fitting requirements for support equipment; specifically syringes, remote repair modules and nanohives as well as the same (if not slightly faster) speed as assault. The slot layout should remain similar. I'm conflicted about whether this new suit should have the same or more tank than Assault, I personally feel it shouldn't be too tanky, but others may disagree. This would create a healing suit that allows Logi to be useful without stepping on the toes of Assault users.
The HUD
We need a squad health window
I know most people don't want unnecessary HUD clutter, but as a medic I really need to know where my squad mates are and what their current health is. It doesn't have to be fancy, I only want to know what my squad's health currently is and a small directional arrow so I can find them. I only want my squad to appear in this window, not my entire group. The entire group would be too much clutter and having only your own squad to monitor encourages multiple Logis per group. Just as having a syringe allows the HUD to display dead squadmates, wearing the healing suit I proposed earlier could enable the squad health window. To be honest, I wouldn't even mind fitting a module for this; it's THAT important.
Grouping
Allow me to beat a dead horse; It's essential
I cannot stress enough how important a decent group is to a medic. Without grouping, I may as well just wear my Assault gear and go out and pad my K/D. As a healer, you've already decided to sacrifice your K/D for the group's survival. Once people know you're a healer, they're going to fan you for the entire game and you have limited ways to defend yourself. Let's not make it worse by forcing PUGs for the rest of the Beta. In order to adequately test anything, let alone logistics, grouping should be a priority in the August build.
Low hanging fruit
Easy quality of life changes
The remote repair devices should remain as black smoke, but there needs to be an indicator on the tool itself that shows the user it is working. Something as simple as a small green light on the top of the tool would suffice.
The person being healed should receive feedback that they're being healed. This would prevent players from running off and leaving their healers before they're at full health. This could be something as simple as a blue or green indicator on their screen similar to the feedback you get when someone is shooting you.
What are your thoughts? Am I way off base? I realize this seems more like a request/suggestion rather than general discussion but I also wanted to see what other Logis felt about the role as a whole. Sort of killing two birds with one stone, but if this belongs in the request forum I don't mind "splitting" the topic. |
Abron Garr
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not enough people play logi yet I guess. |
Sha Kharn Clone
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1087
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Totaly with you on this. As it is I have no idea why im saying sp up to proto my logi suit. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders Red Rock Consortium
296
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Posted - 2012.07.25 13:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
People are playing logistics, myself included. I was even being repaired by another logistics the other day while keeping a heavy alive. All your points are valid and have been discussed but repetition is good to show that fixing them is requested by many players.
Keep on repping. |
dust badger
BetaMax.
283
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
i would like the same yellow squares you see when a tank heals its own armor on the person being healed |
Benjamin Hellios
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
dust badger wrote:i would like the same yellow squares you see when a tank heals its own armor on the person being healed
+1
Good post, you have some valid points although I'm not sure about the specific healing logi suit. The beauty of this game is that you can basically do this yourself, i.e. make two or more seperate logi suit fittings, each with it's own PG/CPU boosters if necessary, one dedicated to healing/repairing and one for uplink/nanohive deployement and just switch back and forth as the game goes along. You can have a squad focusing on one of the objectives, 2 logi's with proto uplinks can set up a perimeter of 4 active uplinks, combined with the objective spawn, that's 5 spawnpoints on one objective, +15 for each teamspawn adds up in the long run, spawncamp that suckers! Add to that some armor repairing nanohives and you've got something to work with. Then you can switch to your healing/repairing suit and support your squadmates, preferably a heavy, they make for great cover .
So, Squadhealth window; absolutely Repair indicator; absolutely Healing suit; not sure if necessary but worth looking into |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
788
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Posted - 2012.07.25 13:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
I agree with the OP on most points.
Except a suit with healing bonuses. Right now You can repair someone and they can still die. Unless the bonus was extremely small (Why even have it then?) This could change to where people might not be able to kill someone being actively repped. That would make these tools much stronger than they should be.
I think the logistics suit definately needs a sidearm. Lack of a sidearm is a massive penalty to the suit. Having the best slot layout is offset by being slower than the other nonheavy suits, but not having a sidearm on top of that lack of mobility, is just kicking the logistics user when they are down.
In their current implementation logistics users get more downsides than upsides. You're almost better off just using a prototype assault suit and equipping a nanohive and a repair tool. The speed is fine but there is no question they need a sidearm. Except for the type-II scout suit there is no other suit that does not have a sidearm. Not even a heavy suit which is able to equip a forge gun (in the hands of a skilled user able to instantly kill any infantry) suffers from this penalty of no sidearm. |
Naturi Riclenore
BetaMax.
120
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm spec'd Logistics as well and can see issues with it. I think the biggest thing is anyone can equip a nanohive / injector and boom - they can do exactly what Logistics is for.
My thinking is that certain items should be limited to certain Dropsuits or have a higher cpu/pg cost if equipped in a different type of Dropsuit that what it is "ideal" for. And yes the person / item being repaired / healed needs some indication of what is happening. I don't know how many times I have been saying "wait while I heal you" and the person just runs away from me (goes hand in hand with communications in DUST 514).
And having no sidearm sucks. Every other Dropsuit has a sidearm except for the Logi suit. I haven't been able to figure out why it doesn't have a sidearm option at all. |
Abron Garr
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Benjamin Hellios wrote:dust badger wrote:i would like the same yellow squares you see when a tank heals its own armor on the person being healed +1 Good post, you have some valid points although I'm not sure about the specific healing logi suit. The beauty of this game is that you can basically do this yourself, i.e. make two or more seperate logi suit fittings, each with it's own PG/CPU boosters if necessary, one dedicated to healing/repairing and one for uplink/nanohive deployement and just switch back and forth as the game goes along. You can have a squad focusing on one of the objectives, 2 logi's with proto uplinks can set up a perimeter of 4 active uplinks, combined with the objective spawn, that's 5 spawnpoints on one objective, +15 for each teamspawn adds up in the long run, spawncamp that suckers! Add to that some armor repairing nanohives and you've got something to work with. Then you can switch to your healing/repairing suit and support your squadmates, preferably a heavy, they make for great cover . So, Squadhealth window; absolutely Repair indicator; absolutely Healing suit; not sure if necessary but worth looking into
At the moment, the logistics suit has enough CPU/PG for what I carry. The only problem I really have with the suit is the lack of speed and tank. If it had the same speed and tank as assault then there would be no reason to wear assault, unless you want a sidearm. One way you can prevent suits from overlapping is to split the logi suit the way I suggested. You would get a new logistics suit meant for healing that has speed and tank like assault (along with similar CPU/PG of assault to keep it balanced) or you can use the current logistics suit for demolition and the Swiss army approach (with the present logi CPU/PG).
Nova Knife wrote:I agree with the OP on most points.
Except a suit with healing bonuses. Right now You can repair someone and they can still die. Unless the bonus was extremely small (Why even have it then?) This could change to where people might not be able to kill someone being actively repped. That would make these tools much stronger than they should be.
I think the logistics suit definately needs a sidearm. Lack of a sidearm is a massive penalty to the suit. Having the best slot layout is offset by being slower than the other nonheavy suits, but not having a sidearm on top of that lack of mobility, is just kicking the logistics user when they are down.
In their current implementation logistics users get more downsides than upsides. You're almost better off just using a prototype assault suit and equipping a nanohive and a repair tool. The speed is fine but there is no question they need a sidearm. Except for the type-II scout suit there is no other suit that does not have a sidearm. Not even a heavy suit which is able to equip a forge gun (in the hands of a skilled user able to instantly kill any infantry) suffers from this penalty of no sidearm.
I apologize for not being clear in my OP regarding the "bonus". In Eve, logistics cruisers have a bonus to range and capacitor drain from rep/boosting someones' armor or shields. Since Dust currently does not have capacitor, this bonus obviously would not apply. Instead, it might be a better idea to place a bonus on the suit that reduced the PG/CPU requirements for certain equipment geared toward healing. For example, 50% less CPU and PG required to equip nanohives, syringes and remote repair tools while wearing the "Healing" logi suit. Obviously it needs some fine-tweaking but that's pretty much the gist of what the bonus would look like.
However, I'm not hostile to the idea of a flat healing and range bonus of remote repair tools tied to the suit. Basic logi could have a 5 percent bonus, while advanced and prototype would have 10 and 15 percent respectively. If I'm healing someone and not shooting, that's less damage being applied to the enemy. So while it might be slightly more difficult to kill one person, the reduction of DPS should offset this. I understand this is difficult to balance and it starts to become more of an MMO healer rather than an FPS one. So I would avoid placing a healing bonus on a suit unless it is absolutely necessary and proper balance can be mapped out and achieved.
As for lack of sidearm, I agree it is annoying but I think this has a lot to do with the schizophrenic feel that logistics suits currently have right now. I can understand having no sidearm on a healing suit because my main priority is healing and keeping my group alive. Again, not to harp too much on the idea of a healing suit, but by splitting the logistics suit in half you can give the "old" (current) logi suit a sidearm slot while leaving the "new" logi suit with only one weapon slot for balance. |
Benjamin Hellios
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
I can see where you're coming from but once you start splitting logi suits, someone could raise the argument that the same needs to be done for the other suits for one reason or another. I've only been in the beta for about a month and I don't have any EVE experience as you seem to have, so I'm just going off the top of my head here. I'm just thinking that dropsuit limitations are an intricate part of this game and it's up to the individual player to solve these problems through the use of certain skills and modules.
Quote: You would get a new logistics suit meant for healing that has speed and tank like assault (along with similar CPU/PG of assault to keep it balanced)
I'm probably missing something here, but couldn't you just run an assault suit with healing/repair modules or aren't there enough equipment slots available? If so, couldn't you use shield/armor repairers/extenders and biotics(speed) on the logi suit to balance things out with the assault suit?
Anyway, even if what I'm saying doesn't make much sense, I have a feeling that you'll always have to compromise one way or another. I also read in a thread somewhere a dev stating that logi suits would be "buffed" or at least improved in the august build to make them more valuable and worthwhile, that included slightly increased speed and armor. |
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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
There will be the splitting of suit types in an Advcanced Dropsuit Branch. I'm sure of that. Logistics will get an ADV Logistics Suit that has either Hacking or Healing boni . Maybe even Salvage sooner or later ;) Assault will have the approach on spray reduction and propably shooting speed. Heavy looks like it would get a resistance bonus or plain heavy damage bonus I'd say. And Scouts will be looking for a speed suit or a cloak suit. |
Benjamin Hellios
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Seran Jinkar wrote:There will be the splitting of suit types in an Advcanced Dropsuit Branch. I'm sure of that. Logistics will get an ADV Logistics Suit that has either Hacking or Healing boni . Maybe even Salvage sooner or later ;) Assault will have the approach on spray reduction and propably shooting speed. Heavy looks like it would get a resistance bonus or plain heavy damage bonus I'd say. And Scouts will be looking for a speed suit or a cloak suit.
Good stuff, problem solved. |
Abron Garr
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Benjamin Hellios wrote:I can see where you're coming from but once you start splitting logi suits, someone could raise the argument that the same needs to be done for the other suits for one reason or another. I've only been in the beta for about a month and I don't have any EVE experience as you seem to have, so I'm just going off the top of my head here. I'm just thinking that dropsuit limitations are an intricate part of this game and it's up to the individual player to solve these problems through the use of certain skills and modules. Quote: You would get a new logistics suit meant for healing that has speed and tank like assault (along with similar CPU/PG of assault to keep it balanced) I'm probably missing something here, but couldn't you just run an assault suit with healing/repair modules or aren't there enough equipment slots available? If so, couldn't you use shield/armor repairers/extenders and biotics(speed) on the logi suit to balance things out with the assault suit? Anyway, even if what I'm saying doesn't make much sense, I have a feeling that you'll always have to compromise one way or another. I also read in a thread somewhere a dev stating that logi suits would be "buffed" or at least improved in the august build to make them more valuable and worthwhile, that included slightly increased speed and armor.
Yes and no. Aside from CPU/PG limitations, the Assault suit also lacks enough utility slots. The Advanced has one utility slot and I either use REs or a remote repair tool. The prototype has 2 utility slots and I fill them with a repair tool and a syringe. The advantage advanced logi has over advanced assault is one extra low slot which is usually filled with an armor module. So while I'm able to "make do" with a prototype Assault suit playing the role of medic, we run into the problem that the Logi suits aren't really that good at the job they're supposed to do, namely healing. Ideally, I'd be able to use a suit that has the speed and tank of assault, but only one weapon and 3 or 4 utility slots for a syringe, repair tool and either an uplink or nanohive. The proposed changes to the Logi suit include a slight increase (10 HP) to shields and an unknown shield regen boost. Personally, I'd prefer a speed and agility bonus.
I understand this is a Beta and we're dealing with bare bones at the moment, but I would certainly welcome "Tech II" versions of each suit. This would allow even greater specialization. The current "Type-II" suits don't really distinguish themselves from their Type-I counterparts besides a few stat rearrangements and maybe a slight boost in one stat. |
Abron Garr
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Seran Jinkar wrote:There will be the splitting of suit types in an Advcanced Dropsuit Branch. I'm sure of that. Logistics will get an ADV Logistics Suit that has either Hacking or Healing boni . Maybe even Salvage sooner or later ;) Assault will have the approach on spray reduction and propably shooting speed. Heavy looks like it would get a resistance bonus or plain heavy damage bonus I'd say. And Scouts will be looking for a speed suit or a cloak suit.
Source? |
Benjamin Hellios
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 18:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Abron Garr wrote:Benjamin Hellios wrote:I can see where you're coming from but once you start splitting logi suits, someone could raise the argument that the same needs to be done for the other suits for one reason or another. I've only been in the beta for about a month and I don't have any EVE experience as you seem to have, so I'm just going off the top of my head here. I'm just thinking that dropsuit limitations are an intricate part of this game and it's up to the individual player to solve these problems through the use of certain skills and modules. Quote: You would get a new logistics suit meant for healing that has speed and tank like assault (along with similar CPU/PG of assault to keep it balanced) I'm probably missing something here, but couldn't you just run an assault suit with healing/repair modules or aren't there enough equipment slots available? If so, couldn't you use shield/armor repairers/extenders and biotics(speed) on the logi suit to balance things out with the assault suit? Anyway, even if what I'm saying doesn't make much sense, I have a feeling that you'll always have to compromise one way or another. I also read in a thread somewhere a dev stating that logi suits would be "buffed" or at least improved in the august build to make them more valuable and worthwhile, that included slightly increased speed and armor. Yes and no. Aside from CPU/PG limitations, the Assault suit also lacks enough utility slots. The Advanced has one utility slot and I either use REs or a remote repair tool. The prototype has 2 utility slots and I fill them with a repair tool and a syringe. The advantage advanced logi has over advanced assault is one extra low slot which is usually filled with an armor module. So while I'm able to "make do" with a prototype Assault suit playing the role of medic, we run into the problem that the Logi suits aren't really that good at the job they're supposed to do, namely healing. Ideally, I'd be able to use a suit that has the speed and tank of assault, but only one weapon and 3 or 4 utility slots for a syringe, repair tool and either an uplink or nanohive. The proposed changes to the Logi suit include a slight increase (10 HP) to shields and an unknown shield regen boost. Personally, I'd prefer a speed and agility bonus. I understand this is a Beta and we're dealing with bare bones at the moment, but I would certainly welcome "Tech II" versions of each suit. This would allow even greater specialization. The current "Type-II" suits don't really distinguish themselves from their Type-I counterparts besides a few stat rearrangements and maybe a slight boost in one stat.
Ok I finally get it. A possibility would be to add a seperate specialization slot in the fitting section, where you can insert some kind of nanocircuitry module that 'respecs' the suit somehow towards your specific needs. Just a thought. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
I like but I think they shuold make a logi suit that is slightly faster and slightly less tanked then a heavy with a lot of equip slots. |
Ayures0
259
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 23:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Give bonuses, add CPU/PG, increase armor or shields (depending on race of the suit; speed increase could be done instead), and remove the light weapon slot. Sidearms only. Some buffs to the points for revives, heals, and repairs would need to be increased so logi can keep up on SP, though, since you wouldn't be getting many kills with just a SMG or pistol. |
crazy space
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
879
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 00:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
I can't wait for that 8 second revive change. Going to be amazing. |
pjster long
Doomheim
28
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Posted - 2012.07.26 00:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:People are playing logistics, myself included. I was even being repaired by another logistics the other day while keeping a heavy alive. All your points are valid and have been discussed but repetition is good to show that fixing them is requested by many players.
Keep on repping.
heavy is pretty under powered right now |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 01:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Scouts and people with Dropsuit Command up to V are really annoying to keep track of health-wise - their markers, AND their health indicators vanish at a MUCH closer range. Would be nice if you could see health of any friendlies in line of sight when you hold L1 with the Repair Tool out. Permanently showing that would be intrusive, but if you could bring it up at will, that would help a lot (and a lot more than a squad-only health display, because that doesn't give you directions) |
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Abron Garr
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 04:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Scouts and people with Dropsuit Command up to V are really annoying to keep track of health-wise - their markers, AND their health indicators vanish at a MUCH closer range. Would be nice if you could see health of any friendlies in line of sight when you hold L1 with the Repair Tool out. Permanently showing that would be intrusive, but if you could bring it up at will, that would help a lot (and a lot more than a squad-only health display, because that doesn't give you directions)
A small 2x6 or 6x2 box containing percentage health and a small directional arrow is all I need. The best place to put it is along the top-right horizontal or right vertical screen edge. I don't need names or detailed coordinates, just something to let me know where my squad is getting hit and allow me to triage. |
IR Scifi
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2012.07.26 04:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
I must be weird for using my SMG as a primary weapon. Granted it's usually pretty worthless against anything above standard level suits (and I can't track to save my life). But that gives me just enough spare grid to run advanced rep tools and slightly better tank.
That being said I agree with pretty much everything you've said so far. A slight bonus to rep-speed would be nice, and I'd mail $5 to whatever dev implements a better indicator for when the repper is actually repping. |
Abron Garr
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 04:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
IR Scifi wrote:I must be weird for using my SMG as a primary weapon. Granted it's usually pretty worthless against anything above standard level suits (and I can't track to save my life). But that gives me just enough spare grid to run advanced rep tools and slightly better tank.
That being said I agree with pretty much everything you've said so far. A slight bonus to rep-speed would be nice, and I'd mail $5 to whatever dev implements a better indicator for when the repper is actually repping.
The breach variant is a beast. I currently use a proto assault with a syringe and a rep tool. Probably going to drop the syringe for a nano until we get grouping. The SMG is really nice and I'm currently sinking more skills into it along with the mass driver. |
TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
326
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 05:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have the A series Logistic armor. Oh my, 3 slots for equipment. I got Nanohive, Drop uplink, and Triage Repair tool all in the slots. I wonder what's the prototype will be like. |
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