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Are skill points really being earned at 4x rate at the moment?

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Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 12:33:00 - [1] - Quote Wicked Weasle wrote: I heard from the "Welcome to the long beta weekend" announcement that all character assets. Im assuming skills and isk will be "RESET" not deleted. So could this mean that we will still have all of our skill points to spend at launch. The tone and context of most of the posts on the subject would seem to indicate everything is getting wiped. What's being reset are your PURCHASES, i.e. Merc Pack, Aurum, etc. It wouldn't due to have a legion of uber-characters in the game at launch, from just a couple months of testing, while the new players from launch would then be stuck playing for literally years to match that. That said, don't fall into the mistake of thinking you can't "catch up" or you'll "never be as good" as the oldbie. The glory of the skill system in EVE and now in Dust is that you can't bring all of your skills to bear at once. The player that's been around longer is more versatile, he can do more things, but not all at the same time. By specializing, you can match that 9 year old eve character in ONE AREA in just 2 to 3 months. It's remarkably well-balanced, and is certainly far better than a level 80 ganking a level 10 that never stood a chance.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 12:42:00 - [2] - Quote Wicked Weasle wrote: Well if you read the post it states Attributes and Assets. SO im assuming Attributes is your skillpoints and assests are your items. Just putting that out there. Go look for yourself it in the general discussion board. Which further backs the context of "reset" meaning "reset to that of a new character," just like the wipe we already had between the last build and the E3 build. Your real-money-purchased items (aurum, merc pack items; not the things you bought WITH the aurum) will be restored, but all stats, skills, assets, etc. will be whatever they decide new characters will start with at launch.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 12:48:00 - [3] - Quote Wicked Weasle wrote: Dont be a smart ass. I was just pointing something out. I always say, "better a smart ass, than a dumb ass"
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 13:07:00 - [4] - Quote Wicked Weasle wrote: You know everyone that is saying the reset is so beta participants dont have an unfair advantage are just contradicting the game. I mean if we have so much of a head start now how do you think the newbies who start playing dust a year from now will feel. It will be impossible for them to even kill anything. Especially with the huge damage boosters that weapon skills give right now. Also all the eve players will start giving their characters isk or at least rigging contracts so who has the unfair advantage now. This game is all about unfair advantages thats what makes the eve universe. I already shot down this fallacy. Please learn to read. There's a difference between a couple years of normal gain, and a relatively even distribution across the playerbase, and a collection of players that, over the course of just a couple months of beta, achieved 4+ YEARS worth of gains, and thus will have a massive gap between the testers and the entirety of the rest of the community. In EVE, we all earned our stuff the old fashioned way. That new player can't use a BS on day one, but guess what? He doesn't need to, there are other people that can and he can fill other roles that he DOES ahve the skills to. After a few months of specialization, he can match that launch player in ONE area, because you can't bring ALL of your skills to bear at the same time, as it's based on your current ship and loadout what skills will apply. Older players are more versatile, that's all. If you launch with a group of players 4 years ahead of the rest, no one else HAS those higher end items to counter the other guys with the higher-end items. You don't have that relatively normalized distribution across the player base, but instead a massive gap. It would make it very difficult to function. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. You simply continue to fall into the "never catch up" fallacy that many newer EVE players do as well. They are and always have been wrong, just as you are. But without a wipe here, that normal distribution and the presence of people able to use the needed counters won't exist, and thus one of the big balances (rock-paper-scissors) won't apply at launch (or possibly ever).
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 13:27:00 - [5] - Quote Wicked Weasle wrote: Im trying to tell you this isnt EVE anymore ok. This game is supposed to tailor to a less hardcore audience. This is that game that people who like eve but just cant get into play. This is Eve vanilla version. This game is meant for us sappy ass FPS players ok. At least thats what it was supposed to be. A way to gain a larger player audience and it takes more than just turning EVE into an FPS. You need to make a system that works for dem FPS softies. CCP will soon find this out as im sure. Theyll soon come to find that all their dust players are mostly EVE players as well and not the new audience they hoped for. When i started playing this beta the first thought in my head was "CCP sure knows how to make a great game just not a great FPS" AND I PLAY ALOT OF FPS games. And I'm trying to explain to you that you're wrong on every point, and that your assertions would be actively detrimental to THIS game. They're going to find that the ones that stick around are going to be the EVE players anyway. Console kiddies aren't known for attention spans that last past the next big launch date.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 13:35:00 - [6] - Quote tribal wyvern wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Wicked Weasle wrote: Im trying to tell you this isnt EVE anymore ok. This game is supposed to tailor to a less hardcore audience. This is that game that people who like eve but just cant get into play. This is Eve vanilla version. This game is meant for us sappy ass FPS players ok. At least thats what it was supposed to be. A way to gain a larger player audience and it takes more than just turning EVE into an FPS. You need to make a system that works for dem FPS softies. CCP will soon find this out as im sure. Theyll soon come to find that all their dust players are mostly EVE players as well and not the new audience they hoped for. When i started playing this beta the first thought in my head was "CCP sure knows how to make a great game just not a great FPS" AND I PLAY ALOT OF FPS games. And I'm trying to explain to you that you're wrong on every point, and that your assertions would be actively detrimental to THIS game. They're going to find that the ones that stick around are going to be the EVE players anyway. Console kiddies aren't known for attention spans that last past the next big launch date. Not all Console people are 'kiddies', I'm 30....and just as hardcore as your regular PC player (respect to PC)........I still even play rainbow 6 Vegas 1 + 2, they were released 5/6 years ago I went back and played the first Red Faction from PS2 the other day. I go back, too. I also played MAG for quite a while, as well as the first two Resistance games (haven't had a chance to mess with 3 yet, and i still need to finish uncharted 3, gears of war 2, ME2, and others; active duty military + college courses = large backlog). I simply made a generalization. The vast majority of console players do not stick around long. They play a game until the next one launches, then they disappear (hell, makers of sports games depend on this fact, that's how they can charge 60 quid each year with the only change being the roster, and while the last year's version instantly drops to 10 quid used). I'm 26. I have a PS3 (launch model, so it plays my PS2 games and I could sell my PS2), a 360, a Wii, a 3DS, a PSP, a Vita, a reasonably high-end PC (looking into a hexacore, another 4GB of RAM, and replacing my GTX260 with a 590). I play them all. I'm also a backer for the Ouya. The generalization still holds, in spite of the exceptions like us.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 16:46:00 - [7] - Quote Wicked Weasle wrote: Well thats why i said its what DUST was supposed to be. CCP's mission statement was to get people who just couldnt get into EVE for being to hard core into the EVE universe. You cant turn an mmo into an fps because of the overwhelming power that older players will have over the new ones. I just calculated some skills and this is what i got. So if you max out the AR proficiency at level 5 youll get 25% damage increase ok thats already unfair but not by much. BUT OH WAIT WEAPONRY level 5 gives you another 15% so now we are at 40% damage boost. NOw you can pretty much kill a militia geared nooby in like three hits assuming your at advanced or higher level gear. BUT OH WAIT, there is more Assuming you have a prototype suit you now have two high level power slots so you slap on two 10% light weapons damage boosters. WELL GOD JEZZUZ now 60% damage increase. You could kill in just a few hits with militia gear while it still takes them a clip or more to even take down your shield. All in all im saying this game is turning into an mmo and there is a reason you dont mix mmo and fps because in WOW you wouldnt make a level 5 go up agaisnt a lvl 80. The only way to make sure this game isnt a disaster is to have a really good matchmaking service to make sure noobies have time to grow and learn and level up before they take on a big challenge just like in an mmo. And if you think this is wrong then your doing FPS wrong my friend. This is supposed to be a fun way to get new players to enjoy EVE. NOT turn into some "LEVEL 80" gank fest for you veteran EVE players. AND if thats what you want this game to be then you can count me out. You're putting words in their mouth. They never said anything about it being hardcore being the issue. They simply said they wanted to get more than the typical EVE audience (i.e. space and all the mechanics that make up EVE.) None of their statements preclude a deep and complex skill system, consequences, a hardcore experience, or anything else we're seeing here. Nothing they've said precludes the need for teamwork, supports the "can't compete" fallacy you and others seem to subscribe to (and many of the newbies in EVE that don't comprehend how the skill system works erroneously believe too). Pick something, specialize, and you'll be the equal of that 10 year player in that one area within about 2-3 months (maybe days or weeks here, since you get bonus SP just for playing). Also, none of those damage bonuses do you a damn bit of good if you can't hit your target, making skill the more important factor. Wanna know my usual loadouts? Militia gear + the merc pack drop suit and SMG. I haven't used a single consumable, average top 3 in most of my matches, and generally have a K/D of around 1.4 (overall is down around 1.05 due to some bad matches and the fact that controllers suck for FPS games.) This is in spite of all the people with higher skills from having more time to play than I do, and using much better gear. Matchmaking is 1) a bad joke in almost all cases, and 2) completely antithetical to this game's concept. All well and good for the high-sec stuff, which they said would be NPC contracts (you could theoretically work a matchmaking system into it and still let you work for the desired factions), but is completely unworkable in low- and null-sec. Furthermore, the beauty of the skill system, and what you're some fantastically wrong about, is that it PREVENTS it turning into a "level 80 gankfest," as explained above and in other posts. I'm sorry it's too much for you. WoW and CoD are over there -->>
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 16:47:00 - [8] - Quote Wicked Weasle wrote: Im not but hurt about losing my stats. Im butt hurt about the system being unfair to noobs. AND IM TRYING TO TELL YOU. That yes we will have a slower SP increase, but this also applies to new players that start after a year from launch and it will take them a year to get to your level by which time youll have two years under your belt. See the math there. LIKE I SAID you cant mix an fps and mmo. MMO is stat based FPS is supposed to be skill based you cant jsut allow people who have played longer to have an advantage. It should be so that a nooby player could kick a high level players butt if he has more skill. Granted if it is a one on one situation both facing each other. W/E this is my last post about this. I really enjoy dust as it is but ive played alot of FPS games in my 30 years alive and I can tell you as is, its not a very good FPS, its too unfair for new players and that cant happen in an fps. And im talking about new players 1-2 years from now. NOT at launch. I gave you a solution make sure veteran players dont get mixed with noobies in the matchmaking system but find dont listen. I THOUGHT this game was to bring in a new audience to get more people to join the EVE universe but apparently its just another EVE for EVE players and you seem to not be very friendly to us as you call "Soffie" COD players. I once tried to get into EVE and i really wanted to like it but it asked for too much time and dedication to learn so i never did. Then i heard about DUST and how it would allow for an experience where people who didnt get EVE would have a chance to be apart of your world but apparently you dont want us. You can mix them, and it's been done to great effect in the past (see PlanetSide in its first year or two; overpowered vets weren't what killed it, Sony listening to whiners like you and destroying game balance is). Yes, we'll have slower SP gains, but if you DON"T wipe then it won't take them a year to "catch up," it'll take them FOUR YEARS, or even more if you used SP boosters, because the SP we got was 4x or more what the end rate will be. That's not even counting the ridiculous SP you can get from exploiting bugs in the beta (which you're ENCOURAGED to do, to figure out how they work, and report them so they can be fixed). I've played a lot of FPS games too, and as an FPS, it works great so far. Some performance and handling tweaks, fixes to the vehicle controls sure, but the core mechanics work just fine. Your problem is that it's not CoD. That's your problem, not the problem of those of us looking for a good game with interesting, unique mechanics.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 16:50:00 - [9] - Quote Wicked Weasle wrote: Yeah like i said im not gonna hide it. Im not an Eve online player, but Ive always wanted to join in but in all honesty i just dont have the attention span and determination to play just one game. As the Eve players say there is no such thing as a casual EVE player. Then i heard about DUST 514 and thought now i had a chance to be apart of the EVE universe but its turning out to be just another EVE but with guns. Ill still play from day one but still what im worried about is not about myself but for new players. My feelings are that i REALLY want DUST to be a success and not another niche game like EVE. Thats the truth. Now EVE is a really good MMO but even with all its hardcore players thats just it they are mostly all hardcore players. With DUST we have a chance to bring in fresh blood sometimes people who arent all that good at games but its better for that. Im also not very happy with the response from EVE players towards us non-EVE players. Not everyone whos interested in DUST has played EVE, me for example. And we want to play DUST because its an FPS but the reaction from most veterans is that we suck and need to go back to COD. One person even said that they would hate for newbies to join because they dont want to spend hard earned isk on new players and relying on them to capture important planets. It just makes me upset that the reaction towards new people joining the CCP ranks is so volatile. The fact that you're not an EVE player shows immensely, because you're illustrating a complete and total lack of any understanding of the skill mechanics or its nuances whatsoever. There's also tons of casual players in EVE (hell, I'd be considered a casual these days, with how little time I have to invest between work and uni). You're welcome to cower in high-sec and stick to the NPC-generated matches, or even the PvE content that will be coming. Our reaction that you need to return to the kiddy games you're accustomed to is due to your blatant lack of comprehension as to what's going on. You spout off noob talking points that aren't and have never been true of EVE and are even less so here. You scream about imbalance that doesn't exist or is easily compensated for by teamwork and filling the roles that are needed. It mostly boils down to talking about things you just don't understand.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 17:33:00 - [10] - Quote Armatsu wrote: Genhawkk wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Wicked Weasle wrote: Well thats why i said its what DUST was supposed to be. CCP's mission statement was to get people who just couldnt get into EVE for being to hard core into the EVE universe. You cant turn an mmo into an fps because of the overwhelming power that older players will have over the new ones. I just calculated some skills and this is what i got. So if you max out the AR proficiency at level 5 youll get 25% damage increase ok thats already unfair but not by much. BUT OH WAIT WEAPONRY level 5 gives you another 15% so now we are at 40% damage boost. NOw you can pretty much kill a militia geared nooby in like three hits assuming your at advanced or higher level gear. BUT OH WAIT, there is more Assuming you have a prototype suit you now have two high level power slots so you slap on two 10% light weapons damage boosters. WELL GOD JEZZUZ now 60% damage increase. You could kill in just a few hits with militia gear while it still takes them a clip or more to even take down your shield. All in all im saying this game is turning into an mmo and there is a reason you dont mix mmo and fps because in WOW you wouldnt make a level 5 go up agaisnt a lvl 80. The only way to make sure this game isnt a disaster is to have a really good matchmaking service to make sure noobies have time to grow and learn and level up before they take on a big challenge just like in an mmo. And if you think this is wrong then your doing FPS wrong my friend. This is supposed to be a fun way to get new players to enjoy EVE. NOT turn into some "LEVEL 80" gank fest for you veteran EVE players. AND if thats what you want this game to be then you can count me out. You're putting words in their mouth. They never said anything about it being hardcore being the issue. They simply said they wanted to get more than the typical EVE audience (i.e. space and all the mechanics that make up EVE.) None of their statements preclude a deep and complex skill system, consequences, a hardcore experience, or anything else we're seeing here. Nothing they've said precludes the need for teamwork, supports the "can't compete" fallacy you and others seem to subscribe to (and many of the newbies in EVE that don't comprehend how the skill system works erroneously believe too). Pick something, specialize, and you'll be the equal of that 10 year player in that one area within about 2-3 months (maybe days or weeks here, since you get bonus SP just for playing). Also, none of those damage bonuses do you a damn bit of good if you can't hit your target, making skill the more important factor. Wanna know my usual loadouts? Militia gear + the merc pack drop suit and SMG. I haven't used a single consumable, average top 3 in most of my matches, and generally have a K/D of around 1.4 (overall is down around 1.05 due to some bad matches and the fact that controllers suck for FPS games.) This is in spite of all the people with higher skills from having more time to play than I do, and using much better gear. Matchmaking is 1) a bad joke in almost all cases, and 2) completely antithetical to this game's concept. All well and good for the high-sec stuff, which they said would be NPC contracts (you could theoretically work a matchmaking system into it and still let you work for the desired factions), but is completely unworkable in low- and null-sec. *Furthermore, the beauty of the skill system, and what you're some fantastically wrong about, is that it PREVENTS it turning into a "level 80 gankfest," as explained above and in other posts.* I'm sorry it's too much for you. WoW and CoD are over there -->> Please explain that.... how does having 50% more damage, shields, armor, etc stop the "Level 80 Gankfest"? In WoW a level 80 can auto attack a level 10 and pop him in a few seconds. Now let's assume a level 80 takes 8 years and a level 10 takes 1 year (this is an eve scaling of WoW levels). The 8 year player may have maxed shields, maxed armor, maxed caldari dropsuit, maxed gallante dropsuit, maxed sniper, maxed assault, etc. This guy doesn't benefit from all of these skills at once. He has the option of versatility. A smart 1 year player will specialize and completely max everything needed for 1 lookout. Not only is that one year player competitive, he is actually equal or even better than the 8 year player depending on the 8 year player build. As a new player you should spend your first few weeks figuring out what you like and then picking something and maxing it before moving on. In WoW, the level 10 can't headshot the level 80 and drop him with one bullet. In Dust, he can. In your example, the level 10 couldn't be the level 80's equal in ANY area. In Dust, he can. This is the great fallacy I keep trying to explain to you people. Yes, the older player will always have more SP than you (unless he dies without an up to date clone). No, it doesn't mean you'll never match him, not at everything. If I'm in a scout dropsuit with a sniper rifle, locus grenade, damage booster, stam pack, and nanohive, what skills can I bring to bear? Only those skills that affect everything (not many exist in EVE or here) and those that affect the specific things I have with me at that moment in time. Sure, I can also drive a tank, fly a dropship, and call down orbital strikes from EVE players, but that's not on my current loadout. None of those skills enter into it. At any given time, you only have maybe 10-20m SP in use on any given loadout in EVE (and that's probably overly generous, and is also assuming all relevant skills are level 5). That's only a year or so to train in EVE. In Dust, due to active skilling from matches, it'll be even less. That's the true beauty and balance of the skill system as opposed to a level system.

Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 17:33:00 - [11] - Quote Further, you won't have large gaps where one set of a players has a ton of SP and the next group down has substantially less; as time goes on, the ones with low SP will have numerical superiority, but the longer time goes on, the more people there are in the middle, and it has a remarkable way of balancing things out. The Goons, though I'm loath to credit them with anything but idiocy, compose their blobs almost entirely of players and equipment using less than 6 months of training. Failing to wipe our characters, on the other hand, would, assuming nothing else changes and we're getting exactly 4x the SP we normally would, result in us gaining 4 years worth of SP in a mere 6 months. That's a pretty substantial gap. That would also translate to no one having access to anything that's properly suited to counter it, and is further exacerbated by being unfamiliar with the game compared to the rest of us. That's a whole different animal from just a newbie not having the SP of an oldbie. With the wipe, there will be people with access to the counters by the time there are people with access to the things that NEED to be countered. Without the wipe, people launch with the items that need counters, but the odds of anyone in a given match actually being able to bring those counters to bear is almost nil once we go live. That's the real danger and imbalance. That danger does not contradict the fact "you'll never compete with them" is, in fact, a fallacy, both in EVE and here, and it always has been.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 17:52:00 - [12] - Quote DrunkMonk 1 wrote: I dont think they should slow down the rate of sp gain because its defintely going to turn new players off when they have to suffer through getting the ass kicked by protype gear players for a week or more before they even stand a remote chance. If they do slow down the sp rate then they should either make protype gear weaker or noob gear stronger. It's WAY too high right now as it is. It's fine for testing, but it'll be way to easy to max out if it's kept this way. It needs to be reduced. Easily compensated for by having your starter skills being high enough to use at least the second tier of weapon and armour for that chosen starter profession. That'll give you access to some decent equipment so you don't feel like a gimp while you're starting, but progress needs to be controlled, or it's going to be an end-game sprint, everyone burns out, and the skill mechanics end up having no meaning at all. Remember, you're not supposed to be training EVERYTHING. Pick something and specialize. Jacks of all trades are masters of none.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 18:25:00 - [13] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: To the best of my knowledge we currently are not gaining 4x SP anymore... We haven't for a few weeks now. At least, they told us in IRC that this is no longer the case. It's possible they adjusted the rate a bit from what it was back in uprising, but it seems pretty similar. It seems like its' the same as when I first started. You remember my first character, Deus Necare? I thought that weekend I was posting and playing there was a 4x weekend? SP gains to me seem to be the same as they were then. If this is the intended gain rate, things are even worse than I thought, because it's WAY too easy to advance. Hell, I have nearly 2m SP from maybe 12-15 TOTAL hours of play on this character since the wipe (last weekend and this weekend). And like I said, that's using entirely militia gear, the merc pack SMG, and the merc pack dropsuit (i.e. 100% BPOs on all my loadouts). That makes me very nervous if this ISN"T accelerated SP gain...
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 18:45:00 - [14] - Quote DrunkMonk 1 wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: DrunkMonk 1 wrote: I dont think they should slow down the rate of sp gain because its defintely going to turn new players off when they have to suffer through getting the ass kicked by protype gear players for a week or more before they even stand a remote chance. If they do slow down the sp rate then they should either make protype gear weaker or noob gear stronger. It's WAY too high right now as it is. It's fine for testing, but it'll be way to easy to max out if it's kept this way. It needs to be reduced. Easily compensated for by having your starter skills being high enough to use at least the second tier of weapon and armour for that chosen starter profession. That'll give you access to some decent equipment so you don't feel like a gimp while you're starting, but progress needs to be controlled, or it's going to be an end-game sprint, everyone burns out, and the skill mechanics end up having no meaning at all. Remember, you're not supposed to be training EVERYTHING. Pick something and specialize. Jacks of all trades are masters of none. I just think that as an FPS this game should be more skill based a starting player who is better should be able to kill a protype geared player, I cant imagine why people want it to be like an mmorpg. I use all BPOs on my setups (militia gear + merc pack SMG and dropsuit). I do just fine, and I suck with a controller. I'd say that's a pretty strong indication that it's pretty fairly balanced. It'll only get better when the next build brings KB/M with it, and I'll no longer have ****** controls contributing negatively to my performance.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 134	Posted - 2012.07.15 21:08:00 - [15] - Quote DrunkMonk 1 wrote: What it all comes down to is the fact that SOME of the people who play this are terrible at shooters and want to be good at this game so they want there to be a grind. They want to spend every waking moment playing this game so they can feel good when they kill someone who dosnt have good gear. I personally dont see the fun in killing someone who dosnt stand chance because his gear isnt good. I'm good at shooters (especially when you give me good controls; read: mouse), and I'm one of the ones sitting here explaining that the "grind" is a non-issue, and is in fact a good and important aspect of the gameplay and strategy. Furthermore, as I already stated, I use nothing but BPOs, and even using a controller, still make a very nice showing for myself. I'm walking, talking proof that gear isn't everything, and that's the great thing about player-skill-based games like EVE and Dust.