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Chew B0CCA
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Posted - 2012.07.15 06:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here's how to fix them: don't walk over them and get killed. Simple. It's not like they're proximity mines (and I can't wait when those get introduced!).
Seriously, just be on the lookout for them. People seem to think you can just bull rush your way toward an opponent for a kill. When people do that, I RE them into the sky. That's a valid tactic. Adjust. Really not that difficult. |
Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.15 06:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Varys Targaryen wrote:Chew B0CCA wrote:Here's how to fix them: don't walk over them and get killed. Simple. It's not like they're proximity mines (and I can't wait when those get introduced!).
Seriously, just be on the lookout for them. People seem to think you can just bull rush your way toward an opponent for a kill. When people do that, I RE them into the sky. That's a valid tactic. Adjust. Really not that difficult. You don't have to walk over them to get killed by one. They have a huge blast radius. Plus the fact REs can be thrown AND they slide after landing. Something IS wrong here. I don't see how anyone can deny it.
Well, the only thing I'd say is that I'd be OK with having to spend more SP to work your way up to the current RE's.
But so what if they can be thrown? So what if they slide? Why does that matter? Assault rifles propel bullets through the air. That's war.
Do RE kills always come from people walking over them? No, of course not. But assault rifle kills don't always come from someone you're shooting at. Sometimes you get shot in the back. And sometimes a crafty RE guy rolls up behind you and blows you 2.8 meters into the air. Both tactics are valid. Pay attention and you will die less, be it from bullets or RE's. Really, they're not that bad. |
Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.15 06:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arceus Evoxazon wrote:SBRONZO wrote:imho RE should done more damage to "material" like turret and vehicle and should done less damage to player So, I can tear through Armor Plates but not a Dropsuit?
+1 |
Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.15 18:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Varys Targaryen wrote:Chew B0CCA wrote:Varys Targaryen wrote:Chew B0CCA wrote:Here's how to fix them: don't walk over them and get killed. Simple. It's not like they're proximity mines (and I can't wait when those get introduced!).
Seriously, just be on the lookout for them. People seem to think you can just bull rush your way toward an opponent for a kill. When people do that, I RE them into the sky. That's a valid tactic. Adjust. Really not that difficult. You don't have to walk over them to get killed by one. They have a huge blast radius. Plus the fact REs can be thrown AND they slide after landing. Something IS wrong here. I don't see how anyone can deny it. Well, the only thing I'd say is that I'd be OK with having to spend more SP to work your way up to the current RE's. But so what if they can be thrown? So what if they slide? Why does that matter? Assault rifles propel bullets through the air. That's war. Do RE kills always come from people walking over them? No, of course not. But assault rifle kills don't always come from someone you're shooting at. Sometimes you get shot in the back. And sometimes a crafty RE guy rolls up behind you and blows you 2.8 meters into the air. Both tactics are valid. Pay attention and you will die less, be it from bullets or RE's. Really, they're not that bad. I don't care that they can be thrown or that they slide. My problem is how easily they can be deployed then immediately detonated. Paying attention doesn't help. If you are close enough to the enemy, the blast from an RE become inescapable, even if you try to escape the moment he switches to REs. REs currently outrank every weapon designed for close to medium-close range combat. I don't think that's what the developers had in mind for the REs. Just to be clear, I don't have an issue with their damage or blast radius or the fact they can be thrown, slide or whatever. My issue with the REs is their off balance deploy/detonate mechanics.
If you are close enough to the enemy, the blast from an RE becomes inescapable. Yes, i agree. That's the point. That's how they're supposed to be used. In close. It's supposed to prevent heavy's and assaults from bull rushing every red arrow they see. That's why they're great. They keep people at arm's length.
If you see someone with a RE, stay farther back. Why is that difficult? You can tell if someone has one, so just stay back.
It's funny that people are so worried about them. When someone has a RE equipped, do you know what they don't have equipped? A gun. So SHOOT THEM!!!!
When I see someone with RE's when I'm a heavy or assault, I salivate like Pavlov's dogs. They're easy kills. Stay farther back, and if they throw one, shoot it. They're not shooting at you, so you have time to blow up all their RE's.
I have yet to hear a good argument as to why RE's as currently built (aside from maybe boosting SP in order to use them) should not be used.
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Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.15 18:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:interesting, I rarley die to RE cause I am not stupid and dont let myself bait into one.
Exactly. Thank you. +1 |
Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.15 20:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Varys Targaryen wrote:Chew B0CCA wrote:
If you are close enough to the enemy, the blast from an RE becomes inescapable. Yes, i agree. That's the point. That's how they're supposed to be used. In close. It's supposed to prevent heavy's and assaults from bull rushing every red arrow they see. That's why they're great. They keep people at arm's length.
If you see someone with a RE, stay farther back. Why is that difficult? You can tell if someone has one, so just stay back.
It's funny that people are so worried about them. When someone has a RE equipped, do you know what they don't have equipped? A gun. So SHOOT THEM!!!!
When I see someone with RE's when I'm a heavy or assault, I salivate like Pavlov's dogs. They're easy kills. Stay farther back, and if they throw one, shoot it. They're not shooting at you, so you have time to blow up all their RE's.
I have yet to hear a good argument as to why RE's as currently built (aside from maybe boosting SP in order to use them) should not be used.
A lot of time when you are in a straight firefight, with guns being used on both sides, the person who is loosing can quickly change to their REs.
Here is one of the problems though, usually what happens is that when I kill an RE user, as long as he was able to throw one down at the last second, it will detonate upon suicide. There IS no way out.
If there's a straight firefight, why are you so close that you get blown up? When they switch to RE's, it's like reloading a gun. Kill them.
I get your point about detonating at death. If they nerf that, so be it. But again, if they throw one down, you can SEE it. Avoid it after you've shot holes through their dropsuit.
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Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.16 03:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Varys Targaryen wrote:Arceus Evoxazon wrote:Varys Targaryen wrote:Arceus Evoxazon wrote:
Aren't explosives supposed to explode? Have you seen an explosion before? It's usually not the size of a candy wrapper.
wat Reread some of my posts before you post. I clearly state that I don't have an issue with the blast radius or damage. It's the deploy and detonate mechanic that needs work. I should have said that in my last post. Maybe I should copy/paste a disclaimer for all who do not read before posting. So I can't chuck a large block of explosives, because they are remote mines and I shouldn't be able to do that? So you're telling me that if I go to war, I should lay my explosive down instead of chucking it into a group of enemies because it's a remote mine and not a grenade. Ok, let's get realistic here since you really want to get technical: When you reload a clip, why are you not losing bullets? Why, when you get back to that clip, are the bullets magically refilled? You obviously didn't have time to refill your magazine mid-fire fight, so that should be nerf'd. Why can I use my dropship as a battering ram? It's a ship. Not a Ram, yet for some ODD reason, I can take down other ships just by slamming into them. Oh, that's also no counting the part where they don't explode on impact. Hey, how about we address the issue with skills. Why does the same gun I've been using all game suddenly get stronger when I up a skill? The gun didn't change. Am I a magician, injecting my magic into the magazine chamber and blessing the bullets? Are you seriously suggesting that we dumb the game down because someone found a legitimate tactic that function? Just because people complain? So I shouldn't kill people because they get upset? Rethink your argument before you question mine. First off it's a video game. No one is making this to be real life, obviously. So don't get too silly with your sarcasm. My argument is that RE currently do not fit within the gameplay styles of this build. No one is trying to dumb the game down. In fact, wouldn't taking the time to place what few REs you have require planning and coordination? How is that dumbing the game down? Since this video game is not real life and you are limited to what the developers allow you to do, we have this thing called balance. Your "tactic" is the result of a mechanical imbalance between weapons. Which is why people are getting upset. Not because you're a super cool troll Not because you're a creative genius who revolutionized the way REs are used But because betas are f***ing frustrating to play. There are tons of imbalances and random crap that needs work. Spawns, dropships, REs, nanite injectors, hmg and a whole bunch of others need work. REs is just one piece of the puzzle. A lot of people agree and have given very sound arguments as to why REs need this change. You've failed to move me with your arguments because they seem to compose of, and i'm paraphrasing here, "But I wanna do what I wanna do!!!!" Which is why you and others like you constantly avoid the issues we point out. I have read, and reread all that there is to say about this. If you go back to a couple of weeks ago, you will have found me saying the exact opposite. I used to say the same things, "Just be careful man, pay attention". But upon further pondering, I've found that REs do not fit within the mechanics of the game. REs need change and I don't understand how anyone can deny it. I hope that you will see this too.
Well, if I'm being honest, all the anti-RE people have failed to move me with their arguments as well. All I hear is "I get killed when you use RE's and it angers me. Stop killing me with those things that aren't guns. I know there are probably things I could do to get killed by RE's less, but I just want to rush at people and shoot them without fear of dying. I should never ever die from RE's."
I, of course, stand by all my arguments if go you back and look at them. Obviously you stand by yours. I think your arguments are a lot of huffing and puffing, and you feel the same about mine. I don't think we're going to change each other's minds.
All I know is that I play with RE's in certain dropsuits, and I play against them in certain drop suits. I haven't found them to be a problem on either side. Killing RE users isn't that hard, and my other build is a heavy machine gun. I will say this again, they don't have a gun activated when using them. It's really easy to shoot them, especially because most of the RE users have light armor. Even a heavy machine gun or Sub can stay far enough back to be effective against a RE user. To beat them, you don't have to get close enough to them for them to be able to use RE's. Really. I do it all the time.
I haven't heard one anti-RE argument in this entire thread that sound battlefield tactics couldn't fix.
RE's are fine, but I understand that we disagree and I probably won't be changing your mind anytime soon. We'll just have to agree to disagree.  |
Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.16 22:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
J'Jor Da'Wg wrote:Revelations 514 wrote:I think making them sticky and having an arming time is a good idea actually. The arming time keeps them being used for intended purposes, trapping/ambush. The sticky negates the arming time when vehicles are concerned, (so they don't just move off of them).
I don't think 1 or 2 RE's should be able to drop a tank. They shouldn't be used as being able to add on AV capabilities. They should be used to accentuate AV capabilities, or support other people in an AV role. IMO I think it should take almost your full loadout of RE's to just take out a dropship, and two to take down a heavy.
Just my opinion. Remote explosives are being used as grenades, not for demolitions and traps. Remote explosives have one key word; "Remote". Currently, the detonation of REs are anything but remote from their user. Most times they are less than 15m away. Get rid of the ridiculous automatic death explosions, add an arming/lock on sequence, I would say 5 seconds would do. And does friendly fire on Remote explosives need buffed? It seems to be the new Swarm Launcher to me; fire at your feet and walk away unscathed.
I'll repost for Gold Leader since he did such a wonderful job of summing it up:
Some people are complaining about them being set off after death. Not a problem. You all know you can keep shooting someone after they die to permanantly kill them, right? And if you do that (it's like an extra spurt from your gun, so it takes a spit second) they won't be able to detonate the RE. Yahtzee.
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Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.16 22:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dante Daedrik wrote:If anything the RE's should be encouraging people to play the way intended. Dust isnt about rushing people, playing chicken with bullets/AR's. Its about tactical maneuvering like flanking, ambush, covering fire and other such uses. RE's are great for vehicles when you have no opportunity to obtain an AV weapon on the field other than dieing and holding down control points when someone is trying to re-hack while you are getting out of dodge (especially a poorly defended Scout that acts as point man). Including going up against a Heavy, pretty intimidating when all you have is a submachine that is like bb's to them.
+1 |
Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.17 00:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arceus Evoxazon wrote:Juda Macabee wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:As someone has pointed out, what seems broken to you could be balanced to others. I don't see a problem with the remote explosives for the following reasons:
1. They sometimes explode prematurely. If you're lucky, you come out alive with barely half armor (insta-dead if you're in a scout suit). I had this happen to me on several occasions. Be careful on how you throw them... they explode too early if you throw them the wrong way.
2. You have no control as to which remote explosive you activate. Rumors are going around that they explode in the order you place them. But my game play experience has taught me that such a rumor is baseless as they all explode (assuming you planted more than one of them) in unison. This means that if I place an explosive on objectives A, B, and C and someone tries to hack A, I can activate the explosives to kill that hacker, but that means another hacker can come in without fear of getting killed the same way. Which brings me to my next point.
3. I have to restock them once I run out. But if the enemy decides to destroy the supply depots, then I am S.O.L. and then forced to get myself killed just to restock. By the time I'm ready to plant more explosives, the objectives will have already been overrun.
4. Let's not forget the threat of a skilled sniper who can one-shot-kill a explosives runner in a scout suit.
5. They can be spotted by other players. It appears that other players have adapted to this technique of planting explosives near the objectives by simple shooting at the explosives before hacking. Sometimes, a grenade that strayed too close or a tank shooting too close can easily trigger the explosives and thus clear a way for people to go through safely.
6. Apparently, their blast radius is not that wide at all. I have tossed several explosives nearby my opponents, but they were just a foot too far for the explosive to work.
7. You can't throw them very far. I can't even throw an RE over a ledge if my life depended on it. They just keep going towards the floor where I stand even when looking up.
As you can see, they are not overpowered in any way. People just so happen to use them in ways that outside their operational design. In Eve Online, an Iteron Mark V (an industrial hauling ship) is able to shoot down a mission-fitted Megathron (a battleship) while fitted with only one energy neutralizer and one small blaster vs. the Megathron's large guns. Then there is the Orca (an industrial command ship) that can face off against a battleship if done properly at the hands of an experienced pilot. Then there is the battleships that can be used as a mining vessel. Then there is the Myrmidon (a Gallente battlecruiser that mainly armor tanks) that can be fitted with just energy neuts and hull tank with reinforced bulkheads.
These are clear-cut examples of tools/ships being used outside of their operational design, which is inevitable no matter what CCP does.
I know what some of you are going to say. "But Maken, you're talking about Eve Online. This is Dust. A different game."
That may be true, but DUST is built by CCP which is the same company that made Eve. According to CCP, Dust's purpose is to expand on Eve's universe. It can operate on its own just like Eve, but it will be operating under Eve's server. But that's besides the point.
Let's also no forget that some DUST mercs have also discovered how to properly fit a tank on a dropship and turn it into something that does live up to its name. A ship that drops. Then there are the LAVs being used to just simply run people over. Wouldn't you run over your opponent if he just so happens to be walking in front of you? And let's also not forget that I have used the dropship for the sole purpose of abandoning it mid-flight by jumping out of the pilot seat and falling down with my inertia cancelers once I'm over my target objective. Never mind the poor souls who just spawned in the dropship just to die in a crash as I bailed out. If I time it right, the dropship could do enough damage to a nearby installation as it crashes into it. And don't get me started on a mercs I have spotted wearing a heavy suit armed only with an assault rifle thinking that their poor excuse for an alternative-assault suit could be of any use. Good Points Great Points
Flawless Points.
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Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.17 20:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
It usually takes at least a second or two for them to be detonated when I've used them. I usually have to press L1 a few times before they go off. The timing seems fine.
But out of curiosity: to the RE naysayers, how many times are you guys getting killed by RE's? When I play a heavy or assault, I don't get taken out by them that often. |
Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.19 05:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Wow. While this nerf seems comically ridiculous (I think even the RE haters would agree), we'll have to try it and see. But something tells me this will remove any usefulness RE's provide. I hope I'm wrong...
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Chew B0CCA
58
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Posted - 2012.07.19 16:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Alexei Darkbloom wrote:CCP Frame wrote:In the upcoming build Remote Explosive is going to be changed.
Arming time: 5 seconds
Maximum ammo: 2
Lower throw distance
No icon displayed above until it is armed. Did someone hack a developer account? I can't believe this sort of overreaction would come from a company that has been consistently supportive of emergent, sandbox-style gameplay. What happened to handing gamers an array of tools and letting them discover their uses? From the above statement, RE's are not only going to be nerfed, they're going to be functionally erased from the game. No one will bother. What's the point of wasting an infantry slot and draining more CPU/PG for such useless gear? "Lower throw distance"? Really? CCP, do you even play your game? Or do you just spend your time taking any whining as the gospel? They ALREADY can't be thrown. They're dropped a couple feet away. By jumping and using momentum, they can be tossed a bit further. But again, this is emergent gameplay. Discovering ways of getting around the limitations of the game's tools. The sort of experimentation and discovery that SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED. Guess what, the better players adapt and evolve. I've seen it myself. It's frustrating AND stimulating. It requires a rethinking on both sides. The braindead gripers who don't have the capacity to learn from their deaths will eventually head back to COD--something they will do anyways if you make this game a straight-jacket in which the only way to kill someone is to shoot them. The sort of player what will make the most of a sandbox game is also the sort of player who will stick with it for the long haul. Trigger happy COD kids have trouble with commitments. This, quick-to-nerf mentality of CCP, has been the most troubling aspect of my time in the beta. In contrast to the many public statements about their ambitious plans for Dust, they continually put a stranglehold on those players finding ways of testing the limits. In practice, their vision seems to be one of narrowness and constriction. They kowtow to a handful on an issue that has adherents on both sides. They also often fail to offer much rationale for their verdicts. You're quickly burning your bridges CCP. Planetside keeps looking better and better.
This ^ |
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