DUST Search - Spawn Camping (NOT about the BUG)

Aerik Revenans wrote:

I agree with you, and others in previous threads, that sometimes it is tactical and even appropriate. The larger question is about consistently rewarding such players with large rewards while penalizing their victims. If it's appropriate and a player simply spawned in a location that is too hot, well in that case it was their mistake and it was their own doing.

On the other hand, when every possible location is camped and a player can't escape with a beacon it's a huge issue. There are all sorts of possible fixes that could be put into place. Simply having a random radius around a location won't be enough. Prime example, if you've lost all the points for whatever reason and are pushed back to the backup spawn it's too easy for the other team to simply move their and camp everyone at one location. Random or not, when you've got every angle covered it doesn't really matter.

Possible solutions:

Players killed in a backup spawn don't contribute to any SP or ISK for your performance
Players killed to close to the backup spawn detract from said bonuses
Backup spawns have cover
Backup spawns have turrets
Backup spawns have automated AA turrets that can only fire in their vicinity (no LOS beyond small radius around spawn)
Automated anti vehicle turrets, same restrictions as above
Players spawn camped receive consolation SP and/or ISK scaling with number of times they are camped
Players camped multiple times at the backup spawn receive bonuses to damage, shield, etc scaling with the number of times they have been camped
Vehicles killing more than x number of players at a backup/default spawn are automatically destroyed
Killing x number of players while spawning results in a warning, and ultimately a boot from the match (should only apply to the backup spawn)
Temporary cloak such as in EVE. Allows client lag to catch up so the player object doesn't spawn before the client shows they spawned. Remove cloak in 15-30s, or when player inputs any sort of command aside from chat
Temporary invulnerability, should only be used with and the same way as temporary cloak
Ability to spawn outside of beacons and/or spawn points (anywhere on map - on the ground of course), drawback is an increased spawn timer. Instead of 10s, you end up taking 15-30 depending on distance from existing spawns and/or beacons

Those are just a few options, but any of the above would assist in dissuading rampant camping. Having played FPS games since Wolfenstein, and having been working on games since I hacked a PC game called Artura on the Atari ST, I'd say I probably have a little bit of insight, and experience as both a player and designer.

My insight is telling me the issue goes way beyond simply fixing the bug. If the game rewards people for camping when it isn't appropriate, it's actually counter productive to the game's goals as presented by CCP. They seem to want to expand on the EVE universe and attract more potential fans.


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Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.07.12 21:48:00 - [1] - Quote Spawning in the same spot over and over is a known bug. One they are going to fix. DO a search next time before you write a wall of text.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.07.13 15:20:00 - [2] - Quote Aerik Revenans wrote: Due to the below post I thought I'd clarify. If you have one HAV at A, B, C and the reserve point you still have enough players able to sit nearby to camp regardless of the randomized location a player could spawn at. If you doubt this, go play BF3. Randomized spawn points to a degree and many of the matches have degraded into nothing but camping. The issue itself is deeper than just where a player spawns specifically. The heart of the issue is the positive feedback which aids, and even encourages, the players to constantly camp. I fail to see how an HAV can still spawn camp when the area in which you spawn is randomized effectively. For example. At A, the spawn point is not all that far from the objective, but it is around a corner, if that were the maximum radius of the random spawn envelope then no HAV could spawn camp. They could sit on the objective and sometimes they would be able to kill someone just as they spawn, but camp it, no. At B the distance is a little greater, and as with A, if that were the range of random spawning, you couldn't camp that either. Perhaps a definition of spawn camping should be understood. I consider spawn camping to be when you can sit in one place with your camera view in one direction and have a reasonably good assurance that the enemy will spawn in your field of view such that you can begin shooting them before they know what is happening. So with C, that is only camp able because you know EXACTLY where they will spawn. If it were randomized just enough to include some of the area under the other hanger, then it would no longer be camp able. As I understand, the spawn areas will be at least as large as the circle defined by a radius from the objective to the current static points. That is a HUGE area to spawn within. So, your point is still invalid. Also, I do not apologize for addressing your original post in the manner that I did because you still didn't address the fact that its a bug and state why your wall of text was any different than the hundred other "WAAAAAH Campers!" threads.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.07.13 15:26:00 - [3] - Quote Aerik Revenans wrote: I agree with you, and others in previous threads, that sometimes it is tactical and even appropriate. The larger question is about consistently rewarding such players with large rewards while penalizing their victims. If it's appropriate and a player simply spawned in a location that is too hot, well in that case it was their mistake and it was their own doing. On the other hand, when every possible location is camped and a player can't escape with a beacon it's a huge issue. There are all sorts of possible fixes that could be put into place. Simply having a random radius around a location won't be enough. Prime example, if you've lost all the points for whatever reason and are pushed back to the backup spawn it's too easy for the other team to simply move their and camp everyone at one location. Random or not, when you've got every angle covered it doesn't really matter. Possible solutions: Players killed in a backup spawn don't contribute to any SP or ISK for your performance Players killed to close to the backup spawn detract from said bonuses Backup spawns have cover Backup spawns have turrets Backup spawns have automated AA turrets that can only fire in their vicinity (no LOS beyond small radius around spawn) Automated anti vehicle turrets, same restrictions as above Players spawn camped receive consolation SP and/or ISK scaling with number of times they are camped Players camped multiple times at the backup spawn receive bonuses to damage, shield, etc scaling with the number of times they have been camped Vehicles killing more than x number of players at a backup/default spawn are automatically destroyed Killing x number of players while spawning results in a warning, and ultimately a boot from the match (should only apply to the backup spawn) Temporary cloak such as in EVE. Allows client lag to catch up so the player object doesn't spawn before the client shows they spawned. Remove cloak in 15-30s, or when player inputs any sort of command aside from chat Temporary invulnerability, should only be used with and the same way as temporary cloak Ability to spawn outside of beacons and/or spawn points (anywhere on map - on the ground of course), drawback is an increased spawn timer. Instead of 10s, you end up taking 15-30 depending on distance from existing spawns and/or beacons Those are just a few options, but any of the above would assist in dissuading rampant camping. Having played FPS games since Wolfenstein, and having been working on games since I hacked a PC game called Artura on the Atari ST, I'd say I probably have a little bit of insight, and experience as both a player and designer. My insight is telling me the issue goes way beyond simply fixing the bug. If the game rewards people for camping when it isn't appropriate, it's actually counter productive to the game's goals as presented by CCP. They seem to want to expand on the EVE universe and attract more potential fans. I agree with you on this with regards to the backup spawn point. I feel that the back up should be like your beach head or fall back position and as such should have some extra level of protection. I would agree with all of your physical solutions (add cover, turrets, etc) I wouldn't go so far as to eliminate or change the reward schema. I would even say that some kind of shield over the backup spawn so that when you are getting pushed all the way back, you have the room and time to plan and execute a coordinated breakout from that area. So that would mean time to call in vehicles and plan your moves all while the enemy campers are waiting and possibly losing their focus. The rest of the objective and CRU spawns should be as they are intended, with an area randomized spawn.