| Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Jonquill Caronite
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
115
   |
Posted - 2012.07.08 06:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
So this is something I've heard few people discussing concerning balance, and it is particularly obvious with tanks, but also applies to all other aspects of this games market... The economic balancing.
I keep hearing the question asked, "What's going to happen when new people join and EVERYONE is in Sagaris Tanks and Prototype Gear", and the answer is, that won't EVER happen except for those teams who are willing to consistently LOSE money in Battles... But in High Security space, where there are no Corporate rewards and Corporations have no reason to funnel money into the game, it won't happen, because Prototype tank, and Prototype dropsuit battles are a 0-sum game.
Let me explain... If a Sagaris driver enters the battle, he enters with the intent of living the battle without dying once... If he dies once, he either makes no profit, or very little profit (Assuming he dies near the end of the battle, and had time to run around and cause significant chaos before being taken out)...
So lets throw a hypothetical scenario together... We have two teams that field 3 Sagaris tanks each, and a crap load of prototype scouts, assault, and heavies... Battle begins, they meet up in the middle, and within 2 minutes into the game AT LEAST 3 Sagaris are dead, if not all 6, and the Prototype heavy teams each just took massive casualties... Now tally up the net loss in ISK, and ask yourself, how many more times in a 15 minute battle do you think these players will throw their tanks and prototype suits into the frey to be slaughtered like this? More importantly... In High sec where all you have to gain is SP and ISK, why would you do this?
The fact is in VERY short time, even people who have trained into prototype gear will spend time balancing their builds... There's a common phrase you hear in EVE, "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose." The same applies in Dust, just because YOU CAN build a super tank doesn't mean you should be using them... Once and awhile battles will skew to one side when a team throws out all their elite ****, but it will get countered by other teams doing the same, and eventually it will balance at average to advanced gear for even people who've trained into prototype.
If you don't believe me, tell me the next time you see a battle where both sides keep 3 Sagaris fielded the entire match... I'll place bets it will NEVER happen.
PLEASE NOTE, THIS WAS AN EXAMPLE... The above applies to all builds, I just used the Sagaris as an example for this post, this is not a tank thread, and I hope people will recognize the difference in the topic choice and not say this is a repeated thread... |
zekina zek
D3LTA FORC3
Orion Empire
108
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 08:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
i have matches where enemy fields multiple sagaris/madrugar/surya whatevers. big tanks tanking and taking loads of damage. my team was on comms and we were capable of using my dropship and team effort to take them out and win the match. each of my Eryx costs around 150K isk. i dont know how much a fully fitted tank of equal caliber costs.
it took around 8 of us to kill those tanks. 2 gunners. 1 pilot. 3 people dropping on top of him and 2 others were already there.
|
Jonquill Caronite
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 09:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
A maxed out Sagaris costs anywhere from 280,000 ISK to 350,000 ISK depending on build. so if this was one of those, it may have taken a concerted effort but you killed something that probably cost 2 to 3 times the combined forces attacking it with coordination. Needless to say, he probably didn't field another one. |
Maximus Chabe
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 14:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
As an EVE player I feel like CCP has made this mistake in the past. They made it with Titans and even recognized their error. I couldn't find the quote but it was along the lines of 'we learned it was a bad idea to balance things out with cost, players will always find a way to use costly items if it gives them an advantage.'
You can't rely on isk cost as the only balancing factor, because players are also earning skillpoints. If a player can earn double the skillpoints over what they would earn in a regular match, and lose 50k isk for it then I don't think that is a bad tradeoff. CCP is making this game on a business model that says players are willing to spend real life money to earn skill points quicker. Why should they think that their players would hesitate to risk losing imaginary isk in order to earn more skill points? |
Hawk Von Draum
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
122
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 15:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maximus Chabe wrote:As an EVE player I feel like CCP has made this mistake in the past. They made it with Titans and even recognized their error. I couldn't find the quote but it was along the lines of 'we learned it was a bad idea to balance things out with cost, players will always find a way to use costly items if it gives them an advantage.'
You can't rely on isk cost as the only balancing factor, because players are also earning skillpoints. If a player can earn double the skillpoints over what they would earn in a regular match, and lose 50k isk for it then I don't think that is a bad tradeoff. CCP is making this game on a business model that says players are willing to spend real life money to earn skill points quicker. Why should they think that their players would hesitate to risk losing imaginary isk in order to earn more skill points?
Yeah you're totally correct but what you're forgetting is if they're loosing money they won't be able to sustain their spending, so they'll be unable to field tanks every match. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 15:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hawk Von Draum wrote:Maximus Chabe wrote:As an EVE player I feel like CCP has made this mistake in the past. They made it with Titans and even recognized their error. I couldn't find the quote but it was along the lines of 'we learned it was a bad idea to balance things out with cost, players will always find a way to use costly items if it gives them an advantage.'
You can't rely on isk cost as the only balancing factor, because players are also earning skillpoints. If a player can earn double the skillpoints over what they would earn in a regular match, and lose 50k isk for it then I don't think that is a bad tradeoff. CCP is making this game on a business model that says players are willing to spend real life money to earn skill points quicker. Why should they think that their players would hesitate to risk losing imaginary isk in order to earn more skill points? Yeah you're totally correct but what you're forgetting is if they're loosing money they won't be able to sustain their spending, so they'll be unable to field tanks every match.
Don't forget on release you will have to have war point to field vehicles, just one deterrent to.spamming tanks.
I don't know how that will work though so it may bot help very much. |
L1BERT1NE X
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 18:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yeah, but you have to admit, most any DUST player with an EvE toon, and I would bet the majority of established EvE players Would think nothing of dropping 10 million ISK per battle to fund Tanks alone. If, at minimum, it's fun and certainly if there is a political goal.
For the current cost of 1 average-well fit stealth bomber I could get 140 of your 350,000 ISK Sagaris(ississesess.....), maybe more. This wouldn't hurt my EvE toon economically -and I am not a wealthy EvE player.
So, then you consider the economic resources of a large sov-holding alliance... |
Takron Nistrom
ROGUE SPADES
83
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 19:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thing is too though, if a merc team is very good with their proto-gear and that's all they use. The cost of possibly losing that gear will be worked into their contract costs. I agree though with empire fights that you will not see much of the proto-gear but like L1BERT1NE X put it. At the moment the equipment is relatively cheap in comparison to Eve equipment and most people, myself included, wouldn't think twice about dropping 10 mil to just **** around. I make Billions a week, not that every Dust player will but it is definitely something to consider. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
134
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 19:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
My, that's a nice Sagarissssssssss you have there, ssssssshame if something were to happen to it...  |
Jonquill Caronite
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 03:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
We all know that CCP has never been opposed to players throwing away wealth to grief other players... So even if EVE players do that to field all Sagaris and Proto gear in empire battles, I don't see them stopping it... In reality there really IS no way to stop it... Short of artificial barriers.... |
|
|
zerkin gerend
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 03:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
the high isk cost of items is why i love this game
when you field 350k isk tank you are makeing a Commitment
|
Barnes Almighty
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 12:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
you fail to mention some eve players that will have enough cash to run proto gear all the time even in random matches they will have their cash from eve to play with on top of their earnings from dust. if you are talking about balance there is none unless ccp makes it so that players who dont play eve have access to the same level of cash flow by limiting what can be passed between eve and dust |
Jonquill Caronite
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 12:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Barnes Almighty wrote:you fail to mention some eve players that will have enough cash to run proto gear all the time even in random matches they will have their cash from eve to play with on top of their earnings from dust. if you are talking about balance there is none unless ccp makes it so that players who dont play eve have access to the same level of cash flow by limiting what can be passed between eve and dust
Between the OVERALL new eden experience there is still balance, it just may swing back and forth between the games... There will always be rich people in both games throwing away their wealth to cause havok with other people... If CCP does their job right, wealthy Dust players will be able to do just as much griefing in EVE as EVE players will do in Dust...
Does this mean the game is unbalanced though? No, it just means you have to look at the net cost and net gains and look outside individual games to see the overall cost benefit analysis, that guy spent an awful lot of time doing boring **** like mining so he could accrue the wealth to bomb the crap out of some Dust players for a little while... I'm sure if they incorporate an industrial element into Dust there will be a few Industrial Dust pioneers making bank who will throw their money at EVE players to create assaults on EVE (Hopefully ship attacking and boarding is possible eventually), at costs that gaurentee whatever the Dust players get wont compensate for what they lost, but they'll do it just for ***** and giggles anyways...
That's life griefing is an accepted part of EVE, and so is scamming, and it will become an accepted part of dust... This isnt an adapt and overcome issue, or a balance issue, its just how the game works, its part of the reason its so amazingly cool in my opinion and a lot of other players as well... |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 13:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Considering those 300k+ tanks are getting a massive price increase in future, I'm pretty sure people will be considering costs.
Also, the point that it's not worth throwing away that amount of money on a battle that doesn't earn at least as much back is a good one. |
Sin3 DeusNomine
Doomheim
142
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 13:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
You have to think also prices are going up on all that stuff. it will cost 1.5m to field a sagaris. Now you loose one that is 5-8 matches worth of isk. that means the guy goes 8 matches without what he trained for before he can afford another pimped out tank.
I do believe the price will balance them out pretty well. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 19:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
There's an active thread in GD where a guy's saying the gear he's using is too expensive, and if he dies once, he's already in the negative half the time.
Might be worth taking a look (sounds like he just doesn't get it, to a certain degree, but the point is that it's working to limit the high-tier gear when it's not being used well) |
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |