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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Zeran Haggai
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
196
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Posted - 2012.07.17 02:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
I understand why people are concerned about this issue. It's a totally valid concern, and i'll bet CCP has been thinking about it long before we started testing. That being said i think it's beyond the scope of the current beta, possibly beyond the scope of the beta in general. The effects of the gap in player gear is currently so inflated due to increased SP gain, a total lack of any kind of match making, and the "beta weekend" ridiculousness of throwing a bunch of clueless newbies in with a bunch of people who have been playing for a month that we really don't have a viable basis to judge it on. Stick this issue in the "wait and see" section IMO, we don't have enough info on what they have planned. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
404
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Posted - 2012.07.17 03:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
I don't think there's any griefing like EVE griefing. Spawn camping noobs doesn't begin to compare with what gets done to new players in EVE. An exhaustive list of EVE griefing strategies takes up pages.
My point is CCP have dealt with world-class griefers day-in and day-out for 9 years. To imagine that they can't think their way around fps spawn-campers and noob-stompers is ludicrous.
I'm surprised there is going to be a matchmaking system, it feels uncomfortably alien to New Eden, tbqh. I'm suspending judgement until we get the details, and it will be only highsec, fine, but I have this niggling fear that the space-black heart of New Eden may be stained with grey.
This means that the hard core in New Eden will always be the pod pilots. It's sad that the mercs will never get a chance to toughen up like the pod pilots do - it's those first few brutal months in EVE that we all remember and cherish. A trial by fire survived, brutal adversity overcome, is transformative.
These measures undoubtedly will be good for the size of the player base, but they relegate Dust mercenaries to the role of second class citizens, never given the opportunity to truly prove themselves in the real New Eden. |
Sojuro Ryo
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
189
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Posted - 2012.07.17 03:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
It's very simple. You can have all the game skills possible but if you can't hit the target you ain't going to win. And we all know that there is a bug with the hit detection box so y'all can stop you damn crying and wait for them to fix it. |
Noric CLONE006
1
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Posted - 2012.07.17 04:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Frame wrote:We are going to have highsec matchmaking system in place.
I think this is a good start.
What about also making it stupid to run around with a single piece of proto gear in a highsec match? In the eve fashion, make it so the payout for say 5 highsec matches is less than a single piece of proto gear. Make it so lowsec and nullsec have higher payouts. An experienced player would make more money in low sec or null sec and creates an incentive for more experienced players to leave highsec to the noobs. |
King Snuggler
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.07.17 07:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
EVICER wrote:I played for only 2 weekends.The MERC pack gives people what they need (if Smart).To keep you from totally getting your a$$ kicked.Once the NDA is lifted there will be plenty of people on the web telling people how to start out right.Im sure some clans will also share information amongst themselves giving those players an edge....trust me if the game is good and it is.There is source information and these forums.If a player use's them to educate themselves to ask questions.If a player starts out in a NPC Merc corp those forums will have tips for them to use.If they just spent all there SP on tank skills they will quicly find out that outside the tank they suck but inside they do not.Will soon get the jist.Your not giving people enough credit.
Anyone getting on to this game from the beginning seeing how complicated it is with the skills and jumping in with both feet thinking they're gonna do things without reading descriptions checking for prereqs is just asking to learn the hard way.
This game will be more than just an FPS.
The problem is with that is a lot of people don't like to read things.... and you can tell when someone asks a bunch of questions when people have told them websites and other online resources to look at...those people will have the hardest time and probably quit cause they can't be bothered to learn and read things....its their fault and thiers only.
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.17 09:18:00 -
[36] - Quote
King Snuggler wrote:The problem is with that is a lot of people don't like to read things... I'm pretty sure the correct answer to that is "Welcome to New Eden"
If you don't like reading, you're playing in the wrong-est universe here. |
Nick Phantom
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
91
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Posted - 2012.07.17 09:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
Some people are having some problems.
I know someone that got 0 kills and was unable to get any objectives but they managed to get killed 12 times......
They asked me why they didn't get any SP. It's pretty simple you don't cap you don't kill you don't get any SP.
That could be changed to give some SP to people that aren't doing to well. A set amount for being in the game for 10 min - then 20 min. depending on how long the match lasts. Also for every death someone could get a SMALL amount of SP. Leaving the not so great players with a little less of a bad taste in there mouth.
Obviously deaths would not be as rewarding as a kill in terms of SP but would be something that players that are on the bottom would appreciate.
This would also help balance the game and keep not so great players interested. |
Dao Ferret
BetaMax.
25
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Posted - 2012.07.17 13:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nick Phantom wrote:Some people are having some problems.
I know someone that got 0 kills and was unable to get any objectives but they managed to get killed 12 times......
They asked me why they didn't get any SP. It's pretty simple you don't cap you don't kill you don't get any SP.
That could be changed to give some SP to people that aren't doing to well. A set amount for being in the game for 10 min - then 20 min. depending on how long the match lasts. Also for every death someone could get a SMALL amount of SP. Leaving the not so great players with a little less of a bad taste in there mouth.
Obviously deaths would not be as rewarding as a kill in terms of SP but would be something that players that are on the bottom would appreciate.
This would also help balance the game and keep not so great players interested.
If they can't 1-on-1 an enemy, or capture an objective then they could: - travel with a group and try to get assists - find a vehicle and get in a gunner position - throw down a drop-uplink and hope someone uses it - throw down a nano-hive by a heated firefight, or hotly contested point
All require zero SP points spent (assuming militia DU and NH), and allow the person to gain SP.
The only games you get zero SP for, are games where you've contributed nothing to the overall success of your side. If this keeps happening, then you need to re-examine your playing strategy/style. Granted, some play styles are not yet supported properly (exclusive drop-ship pilot is so-so, starting as a sniper is a pain SP wise from what I hear, some support tracks are middling supposedly), but if its a matter of your chosen profession not quite meshing with the beta, thats fine. Mention it in the forums, hopefully it will be fixed.
If you're regularly in a game for 10-20 minutes and haven't been able to get any SP, then you need to re-examine how you're playing (as a one time thing, stuff happens, as a regular thing, something is off). |
Cain Hardestadt
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.07.17 16:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
I believe that all Corps should be looking for new blood, because every Corp is going to loose players over time. The Corp will have to do this to keep their numbers high. They will loose players to other corps, or just the fact that Life happens. When recruiting new players, the vetern corp gains the advantage of training the player in the way they like to operate.
I'm sure there are roles that you can put your new players in, that will make them useful for the corp and give them the time they need to become self-sufficient. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.07.17 16:19:00 -
[40] - Quote
Why have matchmaking in a FPS MMO? No reason to play Dust 514 if you are going to get the usual FPS routine.
Also why CCP you keep dividing players? Really all these divisions (in game-Skills, security/rank zones a.k.a. Hig-low-null sec, matchmaking, PVE, etc...) negates and remove all sandbox elements.
Why newcomers needs to be at the appropriate level to participate to the action, otherwise they are naturally disadvantaged as in RPG, when in all competitive FPS any new player with skill can help immediately? Really I am a FPS vet and frankly the fact that in Dust 514 I need in-game items/skills/money to compete appropriately is insulting. Also why do you create a matchmaking system instead then removing these safe zones (which belongs to MMO RPG but not to MMO FPS) since in FPS player's skills decide who wins and player's XP/gear is not a divider? What's is this a FPS school!? Most of us have years of that experience in FPS training and don't need any babysitting...not to mention that players that want to play an MMO FPS will find themselves forced into in a Battlemoon-Matckamkign with big maps thanks to this RPG skill system.
Why the divisions in a game that is suppose to deliver ONE UNIVERSE, ONE WAR? |
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La Gris Feu
Covenant Security Solutions
25
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Posted - 2012.07.17 16:33:00 -
[41] - Quote
I didn't read through all of this, but, it shouldn't be so hard to sort non-corp battles by an SP filter. Like say people under 1-2 million SP have their own arenas as it were. Or say there are battlemoons that allow players to gain SP, but actual skills and non-militia equips are stripped in combat; which actually sounds fun to me, for that simple start up and go kind of gameplay. Plus there are going to be PCvNPC battles which will allow new players to grind in a cooperative environment.
That way it will only be rough on new players when they rally for corp wars, which could help them acquire a sense of awe and appreciation, without feeling overall impotent by comparison, and add a realistic battle dynamic for commanders to consider when deploying troops/forming battalions and squads.
And I'm seconding a base level of SP per round. You always get paid, so why wouldn't you always get SP? Not to mention there is more to learn in defeat than there is in victory. Someone who wins usually already possesses skill, and someone who loses does not; meaning it's more likely that the loser will learn something, or acquire greater skill.
On that note I would also support decreasing more senior players' SP income, but only if there are sufficient other distractions so the feeling of progress remains intact. Corp wars will do well, but exploring, crafting/building, aesthetic pursuits (being able to buy a larger house and decorate lol), and that sort of thing should be in place as adequate distractions. |
SGS Nightmare
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.07.17 22:25:00 -
[42] - Quote
Personally I don't see the issue with having match making services for 'quick play' players- in fact I think it's a good thing, it will prob. Take the place of faction warfare. In regard to noobs joining player corps, they will have their part to play as they learn, if not, like EvE the corps will have a minimum skill point limit before you can join them, so you will have to grind the 'quick play' FW games until you get your SP up to a resonable level. As for the way the skills are dished out, maybe the noobs could have a SP booster for the first so many points to bring them up to usable level ( this currently happens in EvE) but to decrease the skills earned by the older chars, I think it's a ludicrous idea as the SP requirement will be larger and larger as the tier goes up and obviously the SP requirements for vehicles should be even higher still, this will mean that mainly the longer serving chars. will use the vehicles maybe? |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.07.17 22:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
I have an idea for a way to keep the newbs from being constantly pummeled by proto vets. Its about items, not skills. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=26571
copy/paste
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:EDIT - Guessing no one read this. TL;DR version: There should equipment restrictions based on security level, this will make the game tolerable for newbs as well as people without that much time on their hands to play; this would help them play the game without being constantantly massacred by those with superior weapons and equipment. Highsec should restrict advanced and prototype gear, lowsec show only restrict prototype gear, and nullsec should only restrict nothing. Dust 514 and EVE Online are already built around the idea of different areas of space have different security levels which affect what you can do there.Many people feel that new players don't really have a chance against veteran players who have superior weapons, dropsuits, and other equipment. This is a major barrier to enjoyment for new players, and can really impede the growth of the game's playerbase; joining a battle with basic gear, and being steamrolled by experienced players with the added advantage of superior equipment can really turn someone away from a game. Players that don't have much time to play will also feel punished since they make enough skill points to be able to use the mre powerful equipment, and thus be at a severe disadvantage. Some would say that it is skill, and not expensive equipment that wins battles, but consider these scenarios: Two teams are overall equal in skill, and tactics, but one team has prototype gear while the other uses militia. Which team do you think will win? Obviously the one with the prototype gear.
The same two teams again, but the team using militia equipment is slightly more skilled than the ones using prototype gear. Who do you think will win? It is more than conceivable that the team with prototype gear could still win despite being slightly less skilled than their militia-equipped counterparts; this is because the difference in skill might be less than the difference in quality of equipment.
This game however is an MMO, so it does make sense that you would get greatly superior equipment as they progress, that is how MMO's work generally. The answer to the problem of equipment disparity is NOT to nerf the higher grade equipment since nerfing would make leveling up skills and spending extra money no longer worth it, and equipment does need to get better as you progress because of the MMO nature of the game. So what is the solution? Equipment restrictions based on security level. As many of you may know, EVE Online and Dust 514 are built to have different security levels reflecting how hardcore and risky certain areas of space are. The way security levels work can be altered a bit to limit what kind grades of dropsuits, guns, and other equiment can be used in each security level such that the lower levels become more friendly to newbs, and also to those who don't have much time to play. Example: High security battles should only allow militia and standard equipment.
Low security battles should allow up to advanced equipment.
Null security battles should have NO restrictions on what kind of gear you're allowed to use.
This would make the game actually enjoyable for those who are just starting, or don't have much time to play by allowing them to play in more regulated battle environments in which they aren't going against players with massive equipment advantages. Players who want to use advanced and prototype gear can go fight in lower security levels with other hardcore pros like themselves. CCP has made it know through countless interviews that they want this game to be accessible. They want this game to be something you can jump in and play for a quick battle without having to get deep into its MMO element. Nothing is accessible about joining a game with only militia items, and fighting a team with half their mercs using CreoDron Breach assault rifles, no one will want to just jump in and play. The more people this game manages to retain, then the more people will buy AUR to support CCP. You may not want your gear restricted, but you can always just go to nullsec and conquer planets and take contracts from EVE players without any gear restrictions, or you could go to lowsec with minimal restrictions. This thread is a response to two threads I saw that raised the valid issues brought by equipment difference. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=26486&find=unreadhttps://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=26548&find=unread
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EVICER
63
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Posted - 2012.07.17 23:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:I don't think there's any griefing like EVE griefing. Spawn camping noobs doesn't begin to compare with what gets done to new players in EVE. An exhaustive list of EVE griefing strategies takes up pages.
My point is CCP have dealt with world-class griefers day-in and day-out for 9 years. To imagine that they can't think their way around fps spawn-campers and noob-stompers is ludicrous.
I'm surprised there is going to be a matchmaking system, it feels uncomfortably alien to New Eden, tbqh. I'm suspending judgement until we get the details, and it will be only highsec, fine, but I have this niggling fear that the space-black heart of New Eden may be stained with grey.
This means that the hard core in New Eden will always be the pod pilots. It's sad that the mercs will never get a chance to toughen up like the pod pilots do - it's those first few brutal months in EVE that we all remember and cherish. A trial by fire survived, brutal adversity overcome, is transformative.
These measures undoubtedly will be good for the size of the player base, but they relegate Dust mercenaries to the role of second class citizens, never given the opportunity to truly prove themselves in the real New Eden.
Awesome sir eloquently written..I for one dont want a pacifier,nor do I want to be coddled. I might come out with a scratch or 2 but I want to become a Robber Baron grizzled veteran of countless engagements.Thats where the RP comes in...the dedication the commitment has brought me to this point(5 years hence).I will not be concerned nor even want to waste my time picking on newbs.I will have bigger fish to fry and plans within plans muhahahahaha |
Harmony Havoc
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.07.18 00:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
I noticed something not in the beta but listed in market skill spike and cluster. With skill system eventually you cap relevant skills .however, from the description already listed this could be a viable way of helping close the gap of relevant skills. |
Nick Phantom
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
91
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Posted - 2012.07.18 00:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
I'm just trying to think of ways to help the less than great players. Even though he didn't contribute much to the success of the team he was pretty good and distracting the other players while someone else shot them lol.
He's my bro and I'm trying to teach him about this game and he loves the game so far but he is trying to find his footing. He only did that once then the next game he went 2-10 but still didn't get much in the form of SP.
Currently we are unable to run in squads with friends that could watch his back and when your in a game with people you just met they don't really do much in the way of watching other peoples backs.
All I'm saying is give them something for participating in a match even though they didn't directly contribute they were there putting the time in.
Not everyone can go 28-5. And with a lot of people spawn camping with tanks some people just aren't getting a lot of SP.
This would really help players that are just getting started and coming across the prototype weapons. Personally I wouldn't mind letting them have a little for every death as long as it's not as much as a kill is worth.
As far as contribution goes that should be more for ISK and not SP. SP should be learned not earned.
Every kill teaches you something and so does every death. Also time spent in a battle you learn something new so it only makes since to add SP for those things. |
The Robot Devil
45
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Posted - 2012.07.20 04:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP said it would take about 7 years to learn all the skills to the max. I think the build now gives lots of sp to see what it will look like in years 2 and 3. I started EVE a few months ago and some people have been playing for 8 years and I still play. The full build will be different and I would think slower growth. Most skills in EVE take at least a month of time to train to level 5 but in DUST I can get prototype skill levels in less than 2 days. The problem is that it should be more time based like EVE to slow rapid progression. Take a chill pill. It took 20 days to learn drone interfacing 5 and that's not counting training time of levels 1 - 4 |
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