DUST Search - Sagaris OP, or HIGHLY Conditional

Jonquill Caronite wrote:

Quote:

could you please tell me how those grenades and mines are useful when the tank driver sits back at range to have the whole battlefield in his sight thus he can shoot anyone that appears on his screen?

There are certain ways for a tank to remain nye indestructible... Hiding in the spawn behind a large obstacle with a huge field between you and all your enemies is one way... Congratulations you just described how to be a totally impenetrable and relatively useless Sagaris driver. Granted you give your team a nice staging area and all the opportunity in the world to spawn in safety this way, which is a perk, and one that I guess only a really expensive tank niche might fill, and I guess you could call that broken... Me personally since it does little to advance the role of the game i disagree...

On the split side, AS SOON as the drive actually moves into a position where he has any chance at all of actually helping take capture points, your strategy goes to ****. Fact is there are enough obstacles that with proper teamwork and scouting the opposing team can keep the area clear enough to set up so one demo guy can get behind the tank,. drop his AV grenades and do his locks on the tank from an angle where it has to TOTALLY retreat the area , and not just move behind its cover to survive... Now granted if your quick on your turret, and fast at recognizing what's going on, you still might be able to survive that scenario of perfect planning in a Sagaris, but it generally makes the odds about equal of him dying or you dying, and for a 1 on 1 scenario that's the best you can hope for against anything that cost 350,000 ISK.

Point is... I'm guessing the guy your criticizing can take out any Sagaris tanker who actually aids his team in capturing positions on a map... Maybe not the one who just sits in his spawn, but the useful ones, and that's all that really matters. Skill plays a part, but you saying "NUH UH EVERYONE YOU KILLED SUCKED!", is by far the worst argument I've heard on these threads thus far for why to nerf anything...

Does that mean they don't need to be nerfed? I didn't say that maybe they do, but I still hold that if tanks are nerfed so too should be Forge Guns and Swarm Launchers. and possibly AV grenades... Never mind how new weapons when introduced will effect the battlefield.


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Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 07:25:00 - [1] - Quote swarm launcher will never kill you solo unless he manages to come close enough (due to the trajectory it is REALLY CLOSE) and spam all rockets in your tanks flank. even if that happens the chance to kill you is still unlikely because you are faster then then dropsuit and can just drive away + the swarm launcher trajectory makes it really hard to actually hit. the lock on takes time thus with lock on you do not have enough dps to bring a sagaris down. you are really bad if that happens when you are at full shields.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 09:01:00 - [2] - Quote you killed a bad fit and poorly driven sagaris? congratulations you dont seem to graps the concept of zoning in an fps. zoning means that you create an area where it is a bad idea to walk into and this works best with high range high damage weapons and the tanks has everything. even in battlefield where tank die in 2 well placed hits from AT weapons tanks are used to zone infantry at range and this works much better in dust because the guns are deadly accurate and the tanks are much sturdier. properly fit sagaris shields will easily endure your lock on dps and repair alot of shields before the next volley hits. a well driven sagaris will also retreat for repairs. beside that, a well driven tank will stay back, close to an object, as soon as you shoot him he retreats and all your locked missiles will hit the object or he will kill your suit at range before you can actually fire. a bad pilot drives around to look for cheap kills, then gets blown up from behind because he cannot keep an eye at everything. a good driver will use the main cannons range to zone infantry at great distance (so that he can keep an eye on everything) where the infantry cant fight back effectively and are not able to ambush the tank. even if they can shoot with some swarms lock ons the tank will endure the damage or abuse terrain to block the missiles, retreat for few seconds and come back at full strength while the opposing team wastes time and effort to counter the tank. also chances are that there is a sniper supporting the tank to kill all forge gun and swarm launcher users at range, atleast this is what I always do when I see a good sagaris driver on my team :)
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 09:27:00 - [3] - Quote Ryan Martel wrote: Jack McReady wrote: you killed a bad fit and poorly driven sagaris? congratulations properly fit sagaris shields will easily endure your lock on dps and repair alot of shields before the next volley hits. a well driven sagaris will also retreat for repairs. beside that, a well driven tank will stay back, close to an object, as soon as you shoot him he retreats and all your locked missiles will hit the object or he will kill your suit at range before you can actually fire. if someone use a tank to rambo then he sucks, tanks should be used to zone infantry at range where they cant fight back effectively. Congratulations. Wouldn't expect anything less from you. The Sagaris isn't as all powerful as you'd like to believe. They tried to retreat and repair, I just don't let them get that chance and a skilled demo man won't miss even with objects in his wake. Oh and FYI another "properly outfitted tank and well driven Sagaris" also dropped in about three shots after a quick double lob of AV grenades. That was one of the most satisfying. congratulations you officially made your self look really stupid more cool stories bro how do you make your swarm launcher rockets magically fly around objects that is too far away to curve the trajectory? how do you lob a grenade at a tank that is too far away? how do you cover from a sniper headshot when you pop out to fire a volley? oh wait you cant. you are just pulling out phantasms out of your arse. a skilled "demo" haha. you dont even know the concept of zoning in a FPS and you think you are skilled? the sooner you accept the fact that you killed the same noob in a fail fit over and over, the better for you.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 09:37:00 - [4] - Quote Ryan Martel wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Ryan Martel wrote: Jack McReady wrote: you killed a bad fit and poorly driven sagaris? congratulations properly fit sagaris shields will easily endure your lock on dps and repair alot of shields before the next volley hits. a well driven sagaris will also retreat for repairs. beside that, a well driven tank will stay back, close to an object, as soon as you shoot him he retreats and all your locked missiles will hit the object or he will kill your suit at range before you can actually fire. if someone use a tank to rambo then he sucks, tanks should be used to zone infantry at range where they cant fight back effectively. Congratulations. Wouldn't expect anything less from you. The Sagaris isn't as all powerful as you'd like to believe. They tried to retreat and repair, I just don't let them get that chance and a skilled demo man won't miss even with objects in his wake. Oh and FYI another "properly outfitted tank and well driven Sagaris" also dropped in about three shots after a quick double lob of AV grenades. That was one of the most satisfying. congratulations you officially made your self look really stupid more cool stories bro how do you make your swarm launcher rockets magically fly around objects that is too far away to curve the trajectory? how do you lob a grenade at a tank that is too far away? how do you cover from a sniper headshot? oh wait you cant. you are just pulling out phantasms our of your arse. a skilled "demo" haha. you dont even know the concept of zoning in a FPS and you think you are skilled? the sooner you accept the fact that you killed the same noob in a fail fit over and over, the better for you. Yep that sounds about right. I'm just going to go and keep killing those tanks you seem to have a complete love interest in. what happened, are your out of "arguments", Mr. Skilled Demo? I show how to properly abuse the tanks abilities in a objective based gameplay by a simple concept called "zoning" (which obviously you dont know) and all you can do is to throw in this pathetic post? your credibility just crumbled into dust.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 09:58:00 - [5] - Quote Ryan Martel wrote: Yep you got me pretty much with your concepts and so forth 'bro'. just to let you know any decent sagaris fit is going to have 5-6k Shield HP and damage resist modules to reduce the base damage any weapon does to it by about 40%. now we take your proto swarm launcher volley of 3k dmg and taking into account that the sagaris tank sits back relatively safe at great distance in the open (thus not half of your rockets hit a wall), then it will take you atleast 4 volleys to break the shields. assuming the tank driver is not stupid he will cover behind an object after the 2nd or 3rd hit to get full hp back. also chances are pretty high that someone else kills you, be it sniper or some rambo assault, because you sit in a choke point and shooting rockets out of your arse that everyone can see places a big "kill me sign" on your head. you might have killed someone trying out a sagaris with minimal sp and poor fit because its the beta but you will have no chance against someone that knows what he is doing especially if he is supported. what is even more fun, due to the meta shift with the free militia tanks I use a sniper scout to kill those swarm launcher user trying to ambush the tanks. I do this on a fresh character with low amount of SP and it works great Ignatius Crumwald wrote: The tanks are fine. When anti tank mines, flux grenades, and other things come into play you won't be going 20-0. could you please tell me how those grenades and mines are useful when the tank driver sits back at range to have the whole battlefield in his sight thus he can shoot anyone that appears on his screen?
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 11:11:00 - [6] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Jack McReady wrote: could you please tell me how those grenades and mines are useful when the tank driver sits back at range to have the whole battlefield in his sight thus he can shoot anyone that appears on his screen? You seem disgruntled. I don't know what to tell you. I kill well fit Sagaris and Surya tanks all the time. As for them sitting there, once you put a couple 2000+ dmg rounds into them they usually pull up their skirts and run. disgruntled? i just tell you how I use my tank. a well fit sagaris has 6k Shield HP and damage resist modules to reduce the base damage any weapon does to it by about 40%. @your couple of 2k rounds? that is atleast 5 shots required to break the shields of the sagaris assuming he does not regenerate or get repairs. how long does it take it for you to fire five 2k rounds, now factor in how long it does take the tank to kill you at long range? the tank will retreat after a few hits and 10s later come back a full shield hp again and proceed to bombard you from long range. you wasted your time, the tank is still here destroying structures and dropsuits that went into vision of the tank driver. you have to get close to kill the tank which the tank driver will not allow because he is faster and his team is assaulting you too. ofcourse you can easily kill a tank when the pilot is stupid to get close but what will you do when he does not and abuses his range? ignore everything else and try to kill it (thus in the meantime the rest of his team can get all the objectives) or ignore the tank and get blasted from long range? you can't really counter this playstyle as long we do not have the possibility to call in an orbital strike.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 11:35:00 - [7] - Quote Jonquill Caronite wrote: Quote: could you please tell me how those grenades and mines are useful when the tank driver sits back at range to have the whole battlefield in his sight thus he can shoot anyone that appears on his screen? There are certain ways for a tank to remain nye indestructible... Hiding in the spawn behind a large obstacle with a huge field between you and all your enemies is one way... Congratulations you just described how to be a totally impenetrable and relatively useless Sagaris driver. Granted you give your team a nice staging area and all the opportunity in the world to spawn in safety this way, which is a perk, and one that I guess only a really expensive tank niche might fill, and I guess you could call that broken... Me personally since it does little to advance the role of the game i disagree... On the split side, AS SOON as the drive actually moves into a position where he has any chance at all of actually helping take capture points, your strategy goes to ****. Fact is there are enough obstacles that with proper teamwork and scouting the opposing team can keep the area clear enough to set up so one demo guy can get behind the tank,. drop his AV grenades and do his locks on the tank from an angle where it has to TOTALLY retreat the area , and not just move behind its cover to survive... Now granted if your quick on your turret, and fast at recognizing what's going on, you still might be able to survive that scenario of perfect planning in a Sagaris, but it generally makes the odds about equal of him dying or you dying, and for a 1 on 1 scenario that's the best you can hope for against anything that cost 350,000 ISK. Point is... I'm guessing the guy your criticizing can take out any Sagaris tanker who actually aids his team in capturing positions on a map... Maybe not the one who just sits in his spawn, but the useful ones, and that's all that really matters. Skill plays a part, but you saying "NUH UH EVERYONE YOU KILLED SUCKED!", is by far the worst argument I've heard on these threads thus far for why to nerf anything... Does that mean they don't need to be nerfed? I didn't say that maybe they do, but I still hold that if tanks are nerfed so too should be Forge Guns and Swarm Launchers. and possibly AV grenades... Never mind how new weapons when introduced will effect the battlefield. now actually you are disgruntled, its obvious at the moment you start assuming stuff no one said like that I sit in spawn. I also never said that everyone he killed sucked, he actually have done this by himself. he claimed he killed a sagaris in close range in 3 volleys + av nade in his protofit but its a fact that to kill a well fit sagaris you need atleast 4 volleys + nade and a good driver would never be caught in close range. your post does not even make sense, why would I need to stay at spawn and why do you take team vs tank as argument? the tank player has no team on his side? you dont have to move close to actually help the team to capture objectives. the effective ranges of the mainguns are HUGE, which (taken your post as evidence) you have no clue about. abusing the long range and there is not much that can actually threaten you. by staying slightly back and abusing your effective range you create a zone your team can move around freely and you can still shoot the enemy, their structures and so on without having to worry about ambushes. it also allows you to have vision on the whole field. the best is, if you stay close to a wall most of the time half of the rockets from the swarm launcher flying at you hit the wall.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 13:39:00 - [8] - Quote Jonquill Caronite wrote: Sigh Okay tad disgruntled, I will admit. Frankly maybe you're the Elite of the Sagaris Drivers.. If so and if there really is NO AV Merc in this game who can take you out, then maybe they need a nerf... I say maybe because your skill doesn't speak to the skill of all other drivers... I for one actually want to see you in a match and with hold judgement until then, but based on what Ive seen and the majority of those AV Mercs I've spoken to, who have reached prototype skill, its balanced fine... Guess we'll just wait and see. it was not my intention to disgruntle you <3 I am not a pro when it comes to actual mechanical skills (like aiming and so on) but I am quite good when it comes to planning ahead and play as team. being cautios is quite easy in this regard, it is just not everyones taste and I guess someone hot blooded would have his issues to stay back, that is the reason why I created a fresh character just for sniping all those forge gun and swarm launcher users, they are everywhere now with the implementation of militia tanks. so lets take another scenario: 2 team of equal skill level in gameplay and SP. one team has 3 high SP tank drivers, the other on does not but has several high SP tank busters. I can tell you that the team without the tanks is at serious disadvantage and will lose. the tank is a powerful tool that allows you to zone the infantry on a large area. if it is a coordinated group the tank team will also have a sniper (which does not require a big investment in SP and isk) to kill all forge gun users at range too. what do you do when 3 tanks with almost 20k effective hp blast you from range? will you ignore them and try to hold or will you try to bust them with your AT fit? in both cases there is a serious problem: the tanks blasts your at range and the rest of the enemy team is in the way. if you go for the tank the rest will take the objectives, if you switch to AT your ability to fight against other suits is hampered. you make it sound that killing a tank is easy but it is not, it is the opposite and focusing on killing the tank brings alot of disadvantages. the tank moves faster than a suit, has really high effective range and properly fitted alot of effective hp. 2 tanks with good fit create a very big deadzone where your infantry cannot move.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.05 14:15:00 - [9] - Quote Traynor Youngs wrote: HAV's can't shoot straight up. Dropships can shoot straight down. When I see a hull down tank pickling off rounds from afar, I bring my happy little dropship over and get right on top of him and let my gunners go to work. Without a supporting swarm launcher or second tank, they go down. No need to nerf them, they have counters. how do you get close enough? you get shot down before you get into the deadzone.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.06 08:16:00 - [10] - Quote Ima Leet wrote: i think all these epic tankers are making people think twice about spec'ing in to swarms or forge guns I tell you, go for forge gun. currently if the tank is close to an object most of the rockets will land in the object instead of the tank.