DUST Search - [Feedback] Swarmer/Forge Gun vs the Sagaris

Skytt Syysch wrote:

Etero Narciss wrote:

Skytt Syysch wrote:

Your problem: You were trying to take down a likely highly outfitted top tier HAV by yourself. You should lose this fight every time, and in all honesty if you're getting this close by yourself, you should be weakened.

Why should he be weakened? This wasn't case of someone using a weapon easily; he planned his tactic and acted accordingly. He did almost everything right to get an advantage over a stronger enemy.

I can't give an answer as to who necessarily needs to be weakened, if anyone, given his example. The reason is we don't know how the HAV was outfitted. If it had junky modules on it (unlikely, but let's go with it), then yeah, he should probably destroy it. If it was a super spec'd HAV with basically all proto gear and one of the best drivers in the game, the swarm setup he has is too strong. It is my opinion that a properly outfitted HAV should not go down to a single person with an equal level of outfitting (ie max spec vs max spec). If it's coming that close, and the HAV was max modded with a fantastic driver, the swarm needs to be toned down, not the HAV. Nobody should be able to solo the top of the class HAVs, even with a brief amount of surprise.


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Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.03 05:47:00 - [1] - Quote I do wonder if the Sagaris for this build is a touch overpowered in terms of its ability to soak damage or the weapons . I'll elaborate to best illustrate my point of view. If there is any Forge Gun specialists out there that can report success or failures in taking such a tank down please post and elaborate because I cannot say from experience about them. I can however speak for the Swarm Launcher at length as I specialize deeply in it. My current weapon of choice is the Prototype or Tier 3 SL the "Wyrm". Typically this bad boy will absolutely slaughter any LAV and Militia types with one shot. It can take down tanks and most dropships with two or three shots depending on how well fitted they are. It does it's job well and Im glad to have put so much effort into getting it's full potential out of it.. However there is one hurdle even the best SL cannot get past and thats a neatly modded Sagaris. Most of the Healing and Boosters this sucker puts out negates the damage I deal to it quickly. This wouldn't be so bad if I was say peppering the thing from afar every two seconds since thats to be expected especially when it withdraws, but my issue stems from perhaps a very best case scenario where that thing should have dropped. I laid in ambush knowing the Sagaris was going to pass by my location to get to A. When it came within sight I threw my Tier 1 AV grenades uncertain if they went off due to the possible disappearing or dud glitch they suffer from. Thats about 3000 damage. It began trying to heal but I wasn't done. I ran right out to the side of it at point blank range and start tapping that R1 button to quickly fire all six missiles into it in about five to seven seconds giving it my entire payload. Dishing out a whopping 16,200 damage for a total of 19,200 by the end of it. I got extremely close to taking it out but still even that was not enough. It still had a sliver of armor left and began healing. I died and I had to wonder by then end of it what else can possibly be done to improve myself and get a legit chance? After a long look I know that I could increase weaponry or such by a point and put on two complex light damage modules and see if that works however it is extremely disheartening to know that I have specialized this much in being an anti vehicle maniac and I cannot get the top prize so far. Sinking in about three million SP into the field of expertise to be exact. I'm going to keep trying of course as there are several other things I could do in order to try turn my arch enemy into scrap such as getting improved AV grenades and adding complex damage mods and skills to increase the swarm launchers punching power. But if it turns out that I cannot take the tank down regardless of how deeply I specialize or mod myself in this phase of the beta then I would make the suggestion to increase the damage the swarm launcher does by a small amount of maybe 25-50 points at the higher tiers so that it can be capable of competing. The obvious answer of course is to group up but currently with the random matches currently set up that is a crap shoot. The ideal strategy would be to disable it then blast it with multiple swarmers to completely wreck it since numbers obviously would work but after what I saw Im not completely convinced even that would go over well. Or to add equipment such as proximity anti tank mines for additional punching power, or system jammers to prevent it from healing. I believe the EMP grenade the DEVs have mentioned in the blogs would be a rather wonderful way to counter all those healing boosters they have on those tanks. I'll also note that I give props to the Sagaris drivers whom mod the living hell out of their babies to make sure they can do their job. It's a good tank and it does well in it's fields. However I am under the impression that it just might be a touch too much to handle even for a group of similarly built individuals like me.
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.03 06:17:00 - [2] - Quote Im aware that I should lose but understand it wasn't me standing out there like an idiot in front of it trying to do this whilst dodging missiles it shot at me. I attacked from the side of it in ambush and rapidly shot at its side to keep myself out of the line of fire. I got that thing down to a sliver of armor left and that still wasn't enough. And Im a highly outfitted specialized nut to deal specifically with HAVs. When grouping up becomes much more plausible that will obviously be a much more viable solution. However as it is, thats a crap shoot and I actually do mention this already in my opening post. I thank you for reading the thread however but in my opinion the counter argument you make feels like you are under the assumption that I'm using a militia type fit with bare minimum skills to support it and that I was right up against it. That's not the case, I had planned that attack, set myself up for a best case scenario where I would have minimal risk and I still couldn't get it down. I make my attack, I surprised him right out of his ass. I was a good distance away to where my missiles would connect with the target yet he could not easily target me nor get caught in the explosion of my own missiles. So the counter argument you make in my opinion does not have as much weight to completely dismiss what I am saying.
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.03 06:37:00 - [3] - Quote Skytt Syysch wrote: I'm not dismissing what you're saying. I read the whole thing and know you were using the proto launcher and were spec'ed as anti-vehicle. The issue is they were likely spec'ed to survive damage, too, and those aren't supposed to go down to a single person. You say you have roughly 3m SP invested in your fit, I have 5.3m in my HAV and more I plan on putting in. Your suit costs how much, 80k, 120k maybe? My HAV has 200k worth of weapons and "survival" type modules on it without even factoring in the cost of the vehicle itself. Money isn't necessarily the best comparison of what will do better, but these things are built to last. Your problem is you can't kill one by yourself, and you want to be able to. No. That should not be allowed. My point is there should be a suitable counter and as it stands there isn't one for it. Doesn't have to be an easy counter and I'd rather it not be easy but a counter should exist. Grouping as you stated of course would be the proper thing to do and maybe that would be the logistics department to deal with say the electronics that heal and buff and so forth. However for moment thats a crapshoot as you can get utterly screwed if no one else has a mic in that situation. Just the EMP Grenade would do fine because whilst that temporarily gets rid of the tanks constant healing it doesn't negate the danger the tank itself poses. I'd be fine with that alone as it gives a smart player a fighting chance.
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.03 06:42:00 - [4] - Quote Etero Narciss wrote: Skytt Syysch wrote: Your problem: You were trying to take down a likely highly outfitted top tier HAV by yourself. You should lose this fight every time, and in all honesty if you're getting this close by yourself, you should be weakened. Why should he be weakened? This wasn't case of someone using a weapon easily; he planned his tactic and acted accordingly. He did almost everything right to get an advantage over a stronger enemy. I would say that maybe you should first upgrade your weapon damage before deciding whether the HAV is the problem. Some things can be solved with the right fittings that don't require nerfs or buffs. Indeed. And I appreciate that response of course as it can potentially negate my argument in a positive spirit. I am going to naturally be working as feverishly as I can to upgrade weapon damage on my own and see if there is a scenario in which you can with enough effort because like I said I am not going to give up just from this weekends failure and a good legit challenge to work at.
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.03 06:53:00 - [5] - Quote Skytt Syysch wrote: Etero Narciss wrote: Skytt Syysch wrote: Your problem: You were trying to take down a likely highly outfitted top tier HAV by yourself. You should lose this fight every time, and in all honesty if you're getting this close by yourself, you should be weakened. Why should he be weakened? This wasn't case of someone using a weapon easily; he planned his tactic and acted accordingly. He did almost everything right to get an advantage over a stronger enemy. I can't give an answer as to who necessarily needs to be weakened, if anyone, given his example. The reason is we don't know how the HAV was outfitted. If it had junky modules on it (unlikely, but let's go with it), then yeah, he should probably destroy it. If it was a super spec'd HAV with basically all proto gear and one of the best drivers in the game, the swarm setup he has is too strong. It is my opinion that a properly outfitted HAV should not go down to a single person with an equal level of outfitting (ie max spec vs max spec). If it's coming that close, and the HAV was max modded with a fantastic driver, the swarm needs to be toned down, not the HAV. Nobody should be able to solo the top of the class HAVs, even with a brief amount of surprise. Im probably going to wager it didn't have the best driver behind it as he didn't immediately back up when I tried this. Instead he and the gunners tried to shoot me down and failed for the majority of the fight because I had properly positioned myself to where they couldn't turn their guns at me so easily and kept moving to make sure it stayed that way so they couldn't tag me. Nor did they think to leave the tank in order to get at me. The Sagaris in question looked like he was built for dealing with a lot of infantry as I saw missiles being fired in all directions from it. So it had three gunners. From the looks of it, it looked bred for a high amount of damage healing with perhaps some damage reduction for its armor. He then after I used all my AV equipment ran backwards finally, blocked me off from the supply depot and shot me.
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.03 13:19:00 - [6] - Quote Dewie Cheecham wrote: Ryan Martel wrote: My point is there should be a suitable counter and as it stands there isn't one for it. Actually, there are. Just as a HAV can be fittet to suck up damage to the extreme, one can (and probably are) fitted to DEAL extreme damage. The suitable counter to a high resist HAV, is HIGH DPS HAV's Dewie - I appreciate the comment but heres my question to counter that statement. So the anti tank weapons shouldn't be anti tank weapons is what you are saying and that the only things that should stop a tank are other tanks? Jonquill - I'll grant you that numbers and skill apply of course in a game like this but like I said, currently thats a matter of luck at the moment. If you play with a bunch of people that have no mics you are doomed. However thats not the games problem of course. And after taking the time to mull over things the balance isn't that bad for now when the mics are working and you can co-ordinate. However I am also of the mindset that there should be multiple avenues of attacking such a beast as well. A lot of people seems to have overlooked part of the post I made. Might be because it's so small but I did make another suggestion besides increasing the damage slightly for the higher tier launchers and that was to introduce equipment meant to either do more damage to vehicles such as the standard AV proximity mines or equipment/weapons meant to jam the tanks self repairing protocols. I know EVE has tons of electronic warfare and so is it really a hard leap of logic to have equipment that can jam or sabotage such healing mechanisms to even the playing field? Heck as I recall even in the DEV blogs they mentioned something about EMP weapons and so forth. I appreciate your time taken to give some positive feedback however and the suggestions on what would work and what obviously does not. Whether I like what you say or not at least there was something substantial in what you are saying.
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.04 00:52:00 - [7] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Ryan Martel wrote: I got extremely close to taking it out but still even that was not enough. It still had a sliver of armor left and began healing. I died and I had to wonder by then end of it what else can possibly be done to improve myself and get a legit chance? After a long look I know that I could increase weaponry or such by a point and put on two complex light damage modules and see if that works however it is extremely disheartening to know that I have specialized this much in being an anti vehicle maniac and I cannot get the top prize so far. Are you sure you need light one, not a heavy? Edit: Moreover(finally, I read thread) orbital bombardment would be useful against such targets. Well it reads Light Weapon in it's info so... yeah that should mean it works. Anyway if it was heavy then it would not be possible for a scout or assault to wield the SL I'd wager so again that would make it qualify as a light weapon right? Though it might make sense why the ammo capacity didn't rise so... the game misinformed me?
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.04 01:14:00 - [8] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: The simple problem you had is you dumb-fired. A quick a dirty fix to permanently prevent the abuse of last patch was to make dumbfire miss the side of a barn at point blank range. Honestly you were lucky to do any significant damage. This is getting fixed for next patch, but for now you are force to rely on positioning and lock ons. As one of the top Sagaris pilots, let me assure you I am forced to notice prototype swarm launchers, and need specialized fits to outlast the swarmer. Furthermore, forge guns absolutely wreck tanks. I would say equal players the forge gun kills 40%, the tank escapes 40%, and the last 20% the forge gunner is killed. That is brutally effective at a fraction of the price and SP. A very informative post and much appreciated feed back Noc. As well as the others even if I don't always see eye to eye with what is said. I appreciate the statistics for the Forge Gun as well as it helps give me a better opinion. The advice on your first paragraph shall be a part in my adapting to help do my job as a demo man better. Thank you.
Ryan Martel Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.07.04 22:50:00 - [9] - Quote I managed to pull it off. Killed a few Sargasis today and how appropriate considering it's the 4th of July and I love fireworks.