DUST Search - An FPS for an FPS fan?

d'mon jahn wrote:

Gameplay and other issues aside, I think the RPG elements of DUST are too complex for your average CoD/MW fan and a barrier to entry for what should be DUST's target audience. Not that they lack the intellectual capacity for it but that they'll lack the interest and patience for it.

As an EvE player I want tons of those hardcore FPSers out there enhancing my game through their avid desire to blow each other up in DUST, but when I think about friends that I know who love competitive FPS, they wont be interested in the skill-training and fitting aspects in DUST. They'll think of skill-training and fitting as "ugh this is that part I have to get through to get into the fight." At the end of the day they'll gladly pay $60 for another CoD title that delivers the fun they want without the requisite preparation and learning curve inherent in DUST.

They want a fun time whenever they have time to sit down and play, and they'll see most everything but the combat as a barrier getting in the way of their fun.

So then, the question I have has two parts:

A)Do you agree? If not, why?

B) If so, what could be done to simplify the non-combat portions of the game in a way that is palatable to the hardcore FPS fanbase?

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d'mon jahn Rainbow Commune 4	Posted - 2012.07.02 03:17:00 - [1] - Quote Gameplay and other issues aside, I think the RPG elements of DUST are too complex for your average CoD/MW fan and a barrier to entry for what should be DUST's target audience. Not that they lack the intellectual capacity for it but that they'll lack the interest and patience for it. As an EvE player I want tons of those hardcore FPSers out there enhancing my game through their avid desire to blow each other up in DUST, but when I think about friends that I know who love competitive FPS, they wont be interested in the skill-training and fitting aspects in DUST. They'll think of skill-training and fitting as "ugh this is that part I have to get through to get into the fight." At the end of the day they'll gladly pay $60 for another CoD title that delivers the fun they want without the requisite preparation and learning curve inherent in DUST. They want a fun time whenever they have time to sit down and play, and they'll see most everything but the combat as a barrier getting in the way of their fun. So then, the question I have has two parts: A)Do you agree? If not, why? B) If so, what could be done to simplify the non-combat portions of the game in a way that is palatable to the hardcore FPS fanbase?
TotalBreakage Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 410	Posted - 2012.07.02 03:18:00 - [2] - Quote d'mon jahn wrote: Gameplay and other issues aside, I think the RPG elements of DUST are too complex for your average CoD/MW fan and a barrier to entry for what should be DUST's target audience. Not that they lack the intellectual capacity for it but that they'll lack the interest and patience for it. As an EvE player I want tons of those hardcore FPSers out there enhancing my game through their avid desire to blow each other up in DUST, but when I think about friends that I know who love competitive FPS, they wont be interested in the skill-training and fitting aspects in DUST. They'll think of skill-training and fitting as "ugh this is that part I have to get through to get into the fight." At the end of the day they'll gladly pay $60 for another CoD title that delivers the fun they want without the requisite preparation and learning curve inherent in DUST. They want a fun time whenever they have time to sit down and play, and they'll see most everything but the combat as a barrier getting in the way of their fun. So then, the question I have has two parts: A)Do you agree? If not, why? B) If so, what could be done to simplify the non-combat portions of the game in a way that is palatable to the hardcore FPS fanbase? I don't really like this game as an FPS, I'm sure many others will agree with me. I like it as an MMO, and as a dropship simulator!
NJShadow Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2012.07.02 03:27:00 - [3] - Quote I completely agree with the OP. I jumped into this with the FPS mindset. Sure, I can take the time to go through everything and learn this and that, but the tutorials are just way too thin ATM. Give me some interactive tutorials, make me care about the world I'm fighting in. It really would make all the difference. FYI, I'm a console gamer, not a PC gamer. I'm used to games like Resistance, Killzone and, yes, Call of Duty. Just tell me what I need to do, and I'll jump in and do it. The fact that the information/tutorials don't really come off as condensed or streamlined is a tad bit frustrating.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.07.02 03:40:00 - [4] - Quote There should definitely be an in-depth tutorial that explains everything, maybe some streamlining... but I don't want this game dumbed down. This is not the kind of game that's for CoD players anyway; no killstreak gimmicks, lots of players, lots of vehicles, focus on objectives, people don't die in 3 shots.
Niphius Coris Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 4	Posted - 2012.07.02 04:13:00 - [5] - Quote That's not the only difference between this game and other FPS games on the market today. I think the most striking difference is that the battlefield is not balanced. There will be times that you run into an opponent that has a lot more health than you, does more damage than you, and is all around better than you. Your skill in this situation will only take you so far, depending on how advanced your opponent is. In games like COD on the other hand the battlefield IS balanced. Sure there are weapons to unlock, but it won't take you longer than a day of playing to get all of them. So if you're going into this game with a mentality of a FPS I think you're setting yourself up for quite a shock as times progresses. This is a MMOFPS and it requires absolute team work to survive in the long run...
RoBoJerk 41	Posted - 2012.07.02 04:48:00 - [6] - Quote At least pretty much all of the MAG vets will be coming over. We love objective based play, team tactics, and large amounts of players/maps.
John Mookie Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.07.02 04:57:00 - [7] - Quote RoBoJerk wrote: At least pretty much all of the MAG vets will be coming over. We love objective based play, team tactics, and large amounts of players/maps. MAG vet right here! Along with my 3 friends that bought the Mercenary pack with me . And there are going to A LOT more people coming over on release.
Milk Supreme ZionTCD Legacy Rising 127	Posted - 2012.07.02 05:10:00 - [8] - Quote The problem isn't that the game is too complex The problem is that there isn't a clear cut tutorial or tips system to help the new guys. This can easily be fixed
Renzo Kuken Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 369	Posted - 2012.07.02 05:16:00 - [9] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There should definitely be an in-depth tutorial that explains everything, maybe some streamlining... but I don't want this game dumbed down. This is not the kind of game that's for CoD players anyway; no killstreak gimmicks, lots of players, lots of vehicles, focus on objectives, people don't die in 3 shots. and in the true spirit of EVE said tutorial will also need a tutorial :)
Alexander Wolfenstein Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 18	Posted - 2012.07.02 06:28:00 - [10] - Quote "Too complex for your average CoD/MW fan " I see this as a good thing. Those players already ruined BF3, and I will cry if they ruin DUST.

Alexander Wolfenstein Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 18	Posted - 2012.07.02 06:30:00 - [11] - Quote John Mookie wrote: RoBoJerk wrote: At least pretty much all of the MAG vets will be coming over. We love objective based play, team tactics, and large amounts of players/maps. MAG vet right here! Along with my 3 friends that bought the Mercenary pack with me . And there are going to A LOT more people coming over on release. One more MAG vet reporting for duty. I put more than 250 hours into that game and was a 7th Veteran when I finally sold it last month. DUST will be MAG's spiritual successor in my eyes.
Fuma Centuri Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 107	Posted - 2012.07.02 09:24:00 - [12] - Quote d'mon jahn wrote: They'll think of skill-training and fitting as "ugh this is that part I have to get through to get into the fight." At the end of the day they'll gladly pay $60 for another CoD title that delivers the fun they want without the requisite preparation and learning curve inherent in DUST. Because CoD:MW obviously does not have any levels, experience gain, unlockable equipment and all that.... There is no learning curve in DUST, per se. It's just that CCP feel like it's their obligation to carry over the HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE user interface from EvE into DUST. Quote: A)Do you agree? If not, why? I don't agree. DUST needs an active community with people sticking to it. If it's just another CoD clone, then people will play it for a bit, then a new CoD clone appears and they will go play that one, leaving DUST with 100 concurrent players :P DUST needs to create a niche for itself and needs to have some sort of attribute that people like and is not found elsewhere. However, right now I don't see any such thing. It's just a poorly made CoD clone so far. Quote: B) If so, what could be done to simplify the non-combat portions of the game in a way that is palatable to the hardcore FPS fanbase? REWORK THE MARKET BULLSHIT. Seriously. Just look at the skills. You can go to the market, find the skill you want by scrolling through tons of stupid unsearchable lists, then buy it, and you have to go to your character screen anyway. Or you can just go to the character screen, find the skill you want in your available skills, buy it, unlock it and learn it in one place by three button presses. WHY doesn't the fitting screen work exactly the same? I don't care about the market interface. I want to go to fittings, SEE A LIST OF DROPSUITS to select from. Then on each module slot I have a sortable and collapsable tree-list of every module I can fit there. When I highlight it, I can press triangle to see what are it's properties. Simple and doesn't force me to navigate tons of stupid menus to figure out this goes to slot L this goes to slot S this is a ' and that is a -, but it looks like a ' because it's inverted and WTF DO YOU EVEN HAVE A TESTING TEAM? No sane person would say "yeah, that works really nice. I just have to spend three minutes to find a new gun for my fit."
Nstomper Th3-ReSiStAnCe-SEC.0 205	Posted - 2012.07.02 09:38:00 - [13] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There should definitely be an in-depth tutorial that explains everything, maybe some streamlining... but I don't want this game dumbed down. This is not the kind of game that's for CoD players anyway; no killstreak gimmicks, lots of players, lots of vehicles, focus on objectives, people don't die in 3 shots. I agree this game isn't for the average cod/bf3 fan , and also when the game releases there will be less vehicle spam
Zat Earthshatter Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 304	Posted - 2012.07.02 09:40:00 - [14] - Quote This might be the too-young bittervet within me but : LET EM LEAVE!!! This may be an FPS on the surface, but it was never meant to pick up the short-attention-span people that overuse the M203 underslungs in "Madden Military 2013". Pandering to these people would be like turning EVE into a WoW clone with spaceships. And I KNOW you don't want that particular event to happen! Borderline-rant post over. Basically : This game seems complex? That's because it's what CCP wants, and what the EVE players that filled their wallets for nine years want. Hate to be harsh here, but that's just how it is.
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.02 09:56:00 - [15] - Quote UI is one of the greatest weakness of Dust 514: I have games, not only FPS, with an enormous deepness that are far more clear and understandable than Dust 514. Simplicity is not stupidity EVE players be careful FPS are maybe simple but are not stupid.
Stefan Jacobs Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2012.07.02 10:38:00 - [16] - Quote I think what this game does need is a better tutorial system. One that shows you how everything works and not in the form of a page of text like we have at the moment. We need an actual visual one that is like a part of the game. Perhaps when the person creates a character they could appear in a barracks and so be taught all the controls and how to do stuff like use the market and create a fit. Perhaps have them build one of the militia ones as part of this tutorial. You could call it their mercenary training, and during this they could learn about the universe as well.
RoBoJerk 41	Posted - 2012.07.02 15:09:00 - [17] - Quote Stefan Jacobs wrote: I think what this game does need is a better tutorial system. One that shows you how everything works and not in the form of a page of text like we have at the moment. We need an actual visual one that is like a part of the game. Perhaps when the person creates a character they could appear in a barracks and so be taught all the controls and how to do stuff like use the market and create a fit. Perhaps have them build one of the militia ones as part of this tutorial. You could call it their mercenary training, and during this they could learn about the universe as well. Because reading and possibly re-reading until you comprehend is so difficult?
Seeker of Cheese Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2012.07.02 15:36:00 - [18] - Quote d'mon jahn wrote: I think the RPG elements of DUST are too complex for your average CoD/MW fan Good. The average COD fan's intelligence/attitude is the main reason I don't play COD anymore. This isn't the game for them, they can continue shitting up their own game.
Stefan Jacobs Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2012.07.02 15:50:00 - [19] - Quote RoBoJerk wrote: Stefan Jacobs wrote: I think what this game does need is a better tutorial system. One that shows you how everything works and not in the form of a page of text like we have at the moment. We need an actual visual one that is like a part of the game. Perhaps when the person creates a character they could appear in a barracks and so be taught all the controls and how to do stuff like use the market and create a fit. Perhaps have them build one of the militia ones as part of this tutorial. You could call it their mercenary training, and during this they could learn about the universe as well. Because reading and possibly re-reading until you comprehend is so difficult? Not difficult, just a bit annoying. Some people learn best by doing and seeing a large chunk of text telling them how to do something might be a tad daunting for some and so put them off or make them just skip it and then we get to deal with people who have no idea what they are doing. A tutorial system that actually gets a person involved would be much more useful to the user as they don't have to sit there reading about how this game works.
Fuma Centuri Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 107	Posted - 2012.07.02 17:58:00 - [20] - Quote I like text tutorials. If a person doesn't like to read, their problem. It creates a nice advantage to the more dedicated player. You can figure things out as you go, or you can read about all in-detail technicalities. Those who read actually know how to call in a vehicle. Those who don't just act as nice fodder. The EVE culture always was to focus on knowledge and exploit the lack of thereof in others (e.g. can flipping). Tutorials are boring and force you do sit through a stupid routine instead of reading the text in 30 seconds and jumping straight into the action.

Psycho GroveR Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:27:00 - [21] - Quote Quote: Not difficult, just a bit annoying. Some people learn best by doing and seeing a large chunk of text telling them how to do something might be a tad daunting for some and so put them off or make them just skip it and then we get to deal with people who have no idea what they are doing. A tutorial system that actually gets a person involved would be much more useful to the user as they don't have to sit there reading about how this game works. I find this to be a great idea. Much like how White Knight Chronicles II shows you how to navigate your menus and the battle system. I could have learned how to play the game quicker if I had just gone to the edge of town and saw the videos instead of wasting an hour going into each menu/sub menu and playing with things just to see what they do.
Psycho GroveR Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:44:00 - [22] - Quote d'mon jahn wrote: Gameplay and other issues aside, I think the RPG elements of DUST are too complex for your average CoD/MW fan and a barrier to entry for what should be DUST's target audience. Not that they lack the intellectual capacity for it but that they'll lack the interest and patience for it. As an EvE player I want tons of those hardcore FPSers out there enhancing my game through their avid desire to blow each other up in DUST, but when I think about friends that I know who love competitive FPS, they wont be interested in the skill-training and fitting aspects in DUST. They'll think of skill-training and fitting as "ugh this is that part I have to get through to get into the fight." At the end of the day they'll gladly pay $60 for another CoD title that delivers the fun they want without the requisite preparation and learning curve inherent in DUST. They want a fun time whenever they have time to sit down and play, and they'll see most everything but the combat as a barrier getting in the way of their fun. So then, the question I have has two parts: A)Do you agree? If not, why? B) If so, what could be done to simplify the non-combat portions of the game in a way that is palatable to the hardcore FPS fanbase? I would have to disagree with you (yet, also kind of agree with you) for the following reason: I disagree that this game will be too deep for FPS fans of games like MW because, much like in MW, you have to play and earn EXP in order to unlock better weapons, equipment, perks and such. Most FPS games have something of this nature in the game so its not exactly rocket science. You shoot people, protect/destroy objectives, the round ends and you get money to buy stuff you previously didn't have. Its simple. I believe that the vets of games like MW/BF/MAG will appreciate this, but new/casual gamers will probably not want to bother with it if earning new weapons/equipment takes too long. I think that having a better tutorial system might help keep people interested in the game longer (much like the tutorial system for White Knight Chronicles II), but ultimately it will be the gameplay that will keep gamers interested in this game.
Kahlmin Tiarnan Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 41	Posted - 2012.07.02 18:54:00 - [23] - Quote I'm not a MAG vet, I don't play EVE. But I am a hardcore FPS vet. CoDs and BFs. The majority of FPS won't be able to get into DUST right away because it is not easy. I can't play EVE because it is boring as crap. But I love DUST. LOVE. training in skills and all the elements of the game. working you butt off so you can get that next skill to progress. It's awesome. So without a doubt as I've seen a lot of hardcore FPS players like myself will flood in. from MAG BF etc.... But CCP shouldn't try to make the FPS world completely happy. I'm perfectly fine with CCP pissing people off by making a game to hard and complex. They are trying to make a good game that will last. not try to have 300,000,000,000,000, players (That's a lot lol ). But please a Tutorial would be awesome. Just to understand the game a little better so when people start they don't get headaches like me,.
Max Trichomes Quantum Kittens Syndicate 68	Posted - 2012.07.02 19:00:00 - [24] - Quote I couldn't disagree with you more. The complexity and depth of Dust is what will give it longevity. How long does an average CoD game last? A year until the next one comes out? Dust has a 10 year expansion plan. Dust is not trying to appeal to the CoD players, they are trying to appeal to the MAG players, the BF players that are pissed BF3 has been dumbed down so much, the ARMA players etc. There is no lack of arcadey FPS (StarHawk upcoming PS3 exclusive, Halo, CoD, Unreal Tournament, etc etc etc.) but there is a massive hole in the market for a tactical deep game. BattleField 3 failed so hard (only being able to play with 3 friends is sooo fun.... not), ARMA3 will have crazy system specs and is PC only. Not only are there tons of arcedey FPS, but there are tons of sci-fi arcadey FPS. Not only is there no current deep tactical FPS, there has never been a sci-fi tactical FPS (well I guess BF 2142 but I never played it.)
Lephis Phoenix Algintal Core Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2012.07.02 19:03:00 - [25] - Quote Also, you dont have to be the ultimate-headbang-pro-riflemen, you can also go hunting for turrets and vehicles or use them, you can play Dust without shooting one bullet of your handgun. Buy a tank, call it, use it! No FPS Skills needed.
d'mon jahn Rainbow Commune 4	Posted - 2012.07.02 22:48:00 - [26] - Quote OP here. Just to summarize what I've read so far, the general consensus seems to be that: if DUST is too involved for the average FPS fan, that's a good thing. Much in the nature of EvE, DUST will carve out a niche and possibly already have a niche demographic waiting for it (i.e. MAG players). DUST sorely needs high-quality tutorials Agree? Anything else?* *Keep in mind the primary goal here is to let CCP know about important issues and to help them make a badass end-product.


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