DUST Search - Keyboard/Mouse

Jin-roh Hayasaki wrote:

Back in 2007, Shadowrun came out and was the first game (I believe) to allows cooperative play between a console and PC. Immediately it became apparent that KB/M users had the upper hand due to the better responsiveness KB/M offers. That game quickly fizzled.

I play shooters on both console and PC, and while I agree KB/M is the way to go, I would hate to see what happened to Shadowrun happen to this game. The balance issues were never addressed and so people quit playing. If they were able to somehow balance the control scheme (and let's be honest, they would have to tweak KB/M alot) then I see no problem allowing KB/M. Heck I would use it myself! BUT the amount of tweaks they would have to make would probably upset KB/M users.... (I realize balance issue has been addressed several times in the thread already)

Someone posted a comment about the number of users on PS3 vs PC. Yes millions vs just 400k seems like a no brainer. Should KB/M not be enabled, this game would still survive for awhile because tho KB/M may not stick around, there's still millions of people playing. The problem is CCP would be harming themselves for they are isolating a particular category of players, many who have been supporting the company for several years. From a business stand point, that's not smart either.

Many people have stated the reason they bought a PS3 was to play Dust. So let's get this straight, you bought a $300 dollar device capable of dvd, blu-ray, steaming movies, music, social networking (a la Playstation Home), Internet browsing, and playing games just to play one free-to-play game and if it doesn't work out you're gonna return/sell it? Sounds like a silly investment right now for something that is still in Beta and being worked on.

No matter what happens, in the end there is never going to be any winning on this issue. We're beating a dead horse.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Nashor Arkkenclaid Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.07.05 19:33:00 - [1] - Quote Farson Thrask wrote: A mouse and keyboard isn't a very expensive investment. Maybe some people can't use a mouse because they like to lay back in the couch while gaming, but then they are not really trying to be competitive. Either way CCP can't stop me from using a mouse to aim even if they did change their mind about it, I'd just get one of these: http://shop01media.com/info.asp?ProductID=38491&agentCurrID=159 Or maybe a: http://splitfish.com/index.php/en/products/fragfx-shark-ps3 So isn't it better to just make it easier for everyone to use a regular mouse and keyboard? That way everyone can play at the same level if they wan't to. There is also GIMX (Google search it) for people who happen to have a second bluetooth-enabled computer/laptop lying around that does the same thing as those devices. Needs Ubuntu, unless you're willing to do some breadboard work. Honestly, CCP is blurring the line between two highly distinct cultures with DUST, and it's going to be very interesting to see how this interaction is going to pan out. Here's the problem though: EVE players who are also skilled at FPS are going to want to have a stake in DUST; there is no avoiding this. These people have gotten intimately used to the Keyboard + Mouse. Some of them might have never played a console FPS before and are either unwilling or unable to learn a control scheme just for one game. The smart ones WILL find a way around the controller, be it a device like the Splitfish, or GIMX. There is nothing you can do about this. EVE players are competitive. Welcome to New Eden. No matter what you do, no matter what you say, there are people who will use the KB/M anyway, especially since CCP promised official support for it. (http://www.dust514.org/home/item/dust-514-supports-mousekeyboard-and-controller) If you would rather have CCP go back on their promise, and end up with large groups of frustrated KB/M veterans simply GIMXing it up, DUST is going to be much less enjoyable for everybody. (Yes, this includes the DS3 players.) A native scheme opens up the controls to everybody. You don't have to buy a spitfish, or set GIMX up (Not to meniton buy an expensive gaming mouse just to get it to work.) It's more effective to just let people do it rather then force people to find ways around it. (And these people will, and the DS3ers will complain more about something that can't be resolved. Bad times had for all.) It's not even that hard to find a nice lapdesk that you can put a keyboard and mouse on, or put a book and $5 mousepad on your armchair's armrest for the mouse, and keep the keyboard on your lap. It's not as bad as you think it is. In short, no matter what you do, the KB/M is coming. It's a matter of embracing and letting the consoles use it natively, or mitigating it to an elite, who will cause more frustration then simply allowing it normally. Take your pick. In New Eden, you adapt, or you die.
Nashor Arkkenclaid Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.07.10 16:53:00 - [2] - Quote Jin-roh Hayasaki wrote: Back in 2007, Shadowrun came out and was the first game (I believe) to allows cooperative play between a console and PC. Immediately it became apparent that KB/M users had the upper hand due to the better responsiveness KB/M offers. That game quickly fizzled. I play shooters on both console and PC, and while I agree KB/M is the way to go, I would hate to see what happened to Shadowrun happen to this game. The balance issues were never addressed and so people quit playing. If they were able to somehow balance the control scheme (and let's be honest, they would have to tweak KB/M alot) then I see no problem allowing KB/M. Heck I would use it myself! BUT the amount of tweaks they would have to make would probably upset KB/M users.... (I realize balance issue has been addressed several times in the thread already) Someone posted a comment about the number of users on PS3 vs PC. Yes millions vs just 400k seems like a no brainer. Should KB/M not be enabled, this game would still survive for awhile because tho KB/M may not stick around, there's still millions of people playing. The problem is CCP would be harming themselves for they are isolating a particular category of players, many who have been supporting the company for several years. From a business stand point, that's not smart either. Many people have stated the reason they bought a PS3 was to play Dust. So let's get this straight, you bought a $300 dollar device capable of dvd, blu-ray, steaming movies, music, social networking (a la Playstation Home), Internet browsing, and playing games just to play one free-to-play game and if it doesn't work out you're gonna return/sell it? Sounds like a silly investment right now for something that is still in Beta and being worked on. No matter what happens, in the end there is never going to be any winning on this issue. We're beating a dead horse. This is the sad truth of the matter. Damned if CCP does, damned if CCP doesn't. Anyone who really wants to DUST with a Keyboard and Mouse will do so anyway. No doubt they will go through the steps to get something like GIMX installed and running properly. Some might buy a splitfish. Some will buy a different kind of adapter. The problem is that people will do it anyway, and the open nature of the PS3 means that Sony won't do anything about it because Sony doesn't care. (You can use virtually any standard USB controller with the PS3 except ones that use specialized hardware, like the 360 controllers. Their policies on input devices are surprisingly lax.) KB/Mers will still win at the end of the day, only there will be a large technical and cash investment to do it. With proper native support, people will at least be able to use it, or at the very least try it out without having to buy an expensive adapter, install Ubuntu, and configure it. The battle is more between choosing to let KB/M be used by everyone, or a small group of players with expensive hardware. If this wasn't an EVE-related game, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. In fact, most of the people who do care wouldn't care about KB/M. But then again, most people who do care wouldn't care, period. The typical console gamer will see the shiny new Black Ops 2 cover at their local game store in a few months and forget they ever had DUST 514 installed on their console. @360 Controller Support: Considering how Microsoft charges for Xbox Live, and they implemented a 50ms ping restriction on system link games explicitly to force the 3000 or so people that gamed using tunneling services to play their games through Live anyway, I'm pretty sure Microsoft would throw a temper-tantrum of galactic proportions if CCP wrote in Xbox 360 controller support, for the sole reason that people would be buying (used) 360 controllers to play on a competitor's console online and NOT paying for Xbox Live. It's a shame; the 360 controller feels far nicer for FPS then the DS3 does. There is a moral to this story, though. If you want anything interesting on your console, being the most open player in the field will bring you far. It was practically a guarantee that Microsoft's policies would kill any chance of DUST appearing on the 360.
Nashor Arkkenclaid Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.07.11 06:34:00 - [3] - Quote Sephoran Griffith wrote: You could also say that cheaters will always abuse exploits so why not make the exploits really easy so anyone can cheat. That doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it right, but at the same time, saying that "It's not right" isn't going to stop people from abusing it. Look back at Halo 2 for a moment. Double-shots and the infamous BXR were hated by many a player. It wasn't the way the game was intended to be played. It wasn't right. Bungie tried fixing it, they failed in most cases. It inevitably became part of the game, and in order to be good, you had to learn the exploits, or be outclassed by those that did. Incidentally enough, the same thing happened with Skiing in the original Tribes. It ended up becoming a major part of gameplay in Tribes 2, and Tribes: Ascend. Granted, the control scheme debate is not a simple debate of embracing a bug, but it's close enough. Don't get me wrong. I see your point. However, the situation is much more complicated then people think it is. There are four major fundamental issues: A. This is not a situation that can be easily resolved or fixed. B. KB/M being a no-go might actually be worse for the game then adding it. C. CCP made a promise that KB/M support would be added. D. This is a situation that involves clashing cultural norms. One by one, now. A: I have said this in both of my previous posts. I will say it again. Even if CCP falls back on it, people have a way to do it anyway. It's not impossible, and it's not rocket science. There are adapters available, for sale, and a full-blown program that converts KB/M input into DS3 input. Many PC users, especially EVE players, are wealthy or skilled enough to buy or set this stuff up. And believe me; I wouldn't put it beyond many organized groups to make guides or videos that would make the process easy enough for the every-day user to do it. As Sony allows third party controllers to be used on the PS3 and as far as I checked, there is no policy regarding the use of third party controllers or how the system can be controlled, there is no way this can be stopped. This is the negative edge of the double-edged sword that is the PS3, the positive edge being that it's open policies allowed DUST 514 to come to this console in the first place. (The exact reason this game isn't on the 360.) Ergo, using a third-party workaround is not cheating by technicality. This is enough for most people to do it anyway. They won't care if one group of people consider it cheating; if it's not explicitly said to be cheating by Sony, then it's not cheating. This is enough to greenlight using these alternatives whether one group considers it cheating or not. As for CCP... well, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to stop it, either. You never know, though. B. In the case where an exploit or situation is inevitable, allowing more people to take advantage of an 'exploit' might very well be an acceptable solution to the problem. The problem with making KB/M a no-go is that suddenly, lots more of these alternative devices and programs are suddenly going to start popping out of the woodwork, and it will only get worse as they become more mainstream. It probably won't matter much in high-sec, but the moment you hit Low and Null sec areas, where your actions and performance matter the most and population numbers start to thin out, you are more then likely going to run into players who have taken the extra step to KB/M themselves. And since this seems to get so many console players angry, I wouldn't put it beyond some corps, such as the recently announced GoonSwarmLauncher to teach their players how to use GIMX and a KB/M to smurf around the low-sec Battle Moons and other areas just to make the DS3 players mad as hell. (Goonswarm doing what Goonswarm does best.) KB/M isn't going to vanish, and in a game like DUST, which is going to be populated by PC/EVE players whether console players like it or not, providing no option will cause more harm then good at this point. Besides, making the KB/M more mainstream on consoles might very well result in solutions that will solve the problems people have, such as better setups for couches, or better wireless setups. I'd like to see a Nunchuck + Mouse setup, personally. Additionally, not adding support really will make DUST "Pay To Win". Elaboration on request. C: This is a big one. CCP made the promise to add support, and backing out now will look REALLY bad. If you think what I described in A and B are bad, CCP falling out on this promise will make it that much worse, because the PC gamers, and especially the hardcore EVE players WILL seek an alternative way of KB/Ming. D: It's not the fact that CCP is trying something unique. It's not that CCP is making a game that directly interacts with a different game. It's not the fact that CCP is going to be linking a console game and PC game together. It's the very notion of attempting to merge two incredibly distinct communities together that makes DUST 514 such an ambitious project. CCP has to satisfy two entirely separate communities who have very distinct opinions of how the game should be, and as we have witnessed already, KB/M is a topic that the two communities are VERY divided on. As the game evolves and grows, the KB/M is going to be the least of everyone's worries. DUST might become one of the greatest cultural battlefields in the gaming community, and maintaining the balance between the two is probably the largest challenge that any gaming developer will ever have to face. CCP has truly placed themselves between a rock and a hard place. I have to say, though, I feel the pain that the console gamers are going through, and I'm not just pulling your leg. The EVE community is vocal, ruthless, established, and far scrappier then the average PC community. It's going to be a very bumpy ride for you guys.
Nashor Arkkenclaid Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.07.18 20:56:00 - [4] - Quote Lots of people don't seem to understand that people still have a way around it. KB/M on consoles exist, be it a device that converts KB/M input into Sixaxis input, or a program that acts like a Sixaxis and sends KB/M input. If there is no KBM, people will use that instead, and it will in turn create more frustration and finger-pointing among the DS3 userbase, especially when Null-Sec fires up. I said this in a different thread, I'm going to say it again. We can't stop it, Sony won't stop it, (Sony allows third-party controllers and has no policy against unauthorized devices) CCP probably wouldn't stop it (It's too transparent and would cause more problems for skilled legitimate DS3 users then the KB/M users). Ergo, there's no point in arguing over it, because there's a pretty likely chance nothing will be done about it. Not to mention that Alliances that successfully capitalize on these alternatives (if KB/M is scrapped or overnerfed) will create a rather large advantage for that particular alliance, which could in turn hurt the Alliance system and balance of power in EVE, CCP might very well be making it standard so this doesn't become a critical issue when null-sec play starts up. That situation that Longshot Ravenswood described in this post is more likely to become a possibility if only these alternatives existed. (Eg, no native KB/M) (The "alliance advantage and tears" part is what I am talking about.) And I'm pretty sure that said situation would be a godsend for Goonswarm.